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The Myth of Progress

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Parskahye
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The Myth of Progress

Postby Parskahye » Fri Sep 25, 2015 1:05 pm

The myth of “progress” is the de facto official religion of Western democracies. Broadly speaking, this myth serves as the justification for the current liberal worldview, attributing superiority to the current state of the world by virtue of its recentness without any further justification besides its novelty relative to forms which existed historically.

I, as you might surmise, don’t believe in progress, or at least not the historiography which attributes superiority to forms on the basis of contemporaneity. The notion of progress as is promoted by modern Westerners is severely flawed, and is actually dependent on a particular trope which Westerners have been overly eager to apply in their understanding of historical development. This trope is that history is linear or oriented towards a particular goal.

The linear view of history is largely unique to Westerners, perhaps derived in part from the view Christianity takes of the world as being oriented towards a day of judgement and having been recycled back into secular mythos. Rather, however, than viewing history as a downward trajectory of decay before a day of judgement, the modern Westerner views the world as developing on an upward trajectory to some goal of “progress.”

This concept of progress is never defined in except the most nebulous of terms. Broadly, the 19th century view might have defined it in scientific-technical terms, which can arguably make sense when considered that science is an additive pursuit. In the 21st century, this has largely been defined in terms of “liberation” and takes a strongly anti-rational perspective when defined by progress’s most ardent proponents: third wave feminists, the Social Justice movement, etc.

The West’s civic religion, being transformed from a scientific-technical one to a religion oriented towards “liberation” of the individual. Because the strictures of society and culture have largely been eliminated by the Enlightenment's excesses, the only strictures which “oppress” the individual now are those of science and reality. This gives rise to the modern gender theorists who push against genetic and biological objectivity in favor of justifying transsexualism. What is occurring is that “progress” has turned against the scientific-technical framework in favor of one of pure, nihilistic liberation.

This development, which is really a kind of profound decadence, is hard to explain by the traditional framework of progress, but very easy to understand when viewed from alternative models of historiography. My preferred view is that of random-walk. Another is that history is cyclical, perhaps likening the modern world to that of the Kali Yuga in Hindu mythology. Corresponding to the collapse of authority of all forms, the Kali Yuga precedes a return to the highest authority following a collapse of the current order from aggregated and total decadence. We might view that particular kind of cyclicality as occurring within Western history as well: low authority of the late Roman Republic preceding the heights of the early Imperium under Augustus, or of the Migration Period preceding the High Middle Ages, or the era of Absolutism preceding the current age of decadence started by the French Revolution.

Obviously, these ideas are not popular, but I do have to ask. How do you justify the concept of progress? How do you filter it from the idea of decadence? And how is the modern world really achieving progress rather than falling into decadence?
Pro: Radical Traditionalism, Monarchy, Organic State, Rene Guenon, Thomas Carlyle, Julius Evola, Alain de Benoist, Carl Schmitt, the European New Right, Russia, Bashar Assad, Lee Kwan Yew, Viktor Orban, Francisco Franco, Nagorno Karabakh independence

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Conserative Morality
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Postby Conserative Morality » Fri Sep 25, 2015 1:19 pm

Has someone just read "The Decline of the West"?
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Parskahye
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Postby Parskahye » Fri Sep 25, 2015 1:22 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:Has someone just read "The Decline of the West"?


I'm a fan of Spengler, but I disagree that civilizations go into unstoppable declines or that they can't be reinvigorated (China as an example of that).
Pro: Radical Traditionalism, Monarchy, Organic State, Rene Guenon, Thomas Carlyle, Julius Evola, Alain de Benoist, Carl Schmitt, the European New Right, Russia, Bashar Assad, Lee Kwan Yew, Viktor Orban, Francisco Franco, Nagorno Karabakh independence

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Con: Democracy, Liberalism, Egalitarianism, Neo-Conservatism, Neoliberalism, The Democratic Party, the Republican Party, Critical Theory, Marxism-Leninism, Socialism, the European Union, Environmental Determinism, National Socialism, Saudi Arabia, The Islamic State

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The Hobbesian Metaphysician
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Postby The Hobbesian Metaphysician » Fri Sep 25, 2015 1:23 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:Has someone just read "The Decline of the West"?

I swear they overuse the term "religion" to the point it makes the people who claim feminism is a religion look serious.

As someone studying religious beliefs (college level) I can tell you that this entire thing seems rooted in some great big fallacies.
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Nirvash Type TheEND
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Postby Nirvash Type TheEND » Fri Sep 25, 2015 1:27 pm

Progress put food in your belly. It put clothes on your back. It eliminated smallpox, and someday soon, polio. It has curved the proportionate death toll from tribal warfrare, proportionately speaking, nine times. It curved the murder rate in comparison to medieval Europe thirty times. It's feeding children in Africa for answering grammar questions on a not-for-profit game site. More people have been lifted out of poverty in the past decade proportionately than at any point before in recorded history. Wage gaps between the genders are narrowing. Human lifespans are becoming longer and overall healthier. HIV-AIDS infection rates have stabilized, and cancer rates are beginning to fall. Workers are putting in fewer hours for higher pay, and the average home is much, much larger. You can now communicate face to face with people across the world in real-time. You can share information with hundreds of thousands of people in an instant, with the push of a button. We have prosthesis that can feel. We can see another person's dreams. Progress pierced the heavens.

Progress is not a myth. It's a very real phenomenon. No amount of pessimism can stop it.
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The Hobbesian Metaphysician
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Postby The Hobbesian Metaphysician » Fri Sep 25, 2015 1:28 pm

Nirvash Type TheEND wrote:Progress put food in your belly. It put clothes on your back. It eliminated smallpox, and someday soon, polio. It has curved the proportionate death toll from tribal warfrare, proportionately speaking, nine times. It curved the murder rate in comparison to medieval Europe thirty times. It's feeding children in Africa for answering grammar questions on a not-for-profit game site. More people have been lifted out of poverty in the past decade proportionately than at any point before in recorded history. Wage gaps between the genders are narrowing. Human lifespans are becoming longer and overall healthier. HIV-AIDS infection rates have stabilized, and cancer rates are beginning to fall. Workers are putting in fewer hours for higher pay, and the average home is much, much larger. You can now communicate face to face with people across the world in real-time. You can share information with hundreds of thousands of people in an instant, with the push of a button. We have prosthesis that can feel. We can see another person's dreams. Progress pierced the heavens.

Progress is not a myth. It's a very real phenomenon. No amount of pessimism can stop it.

In a note of pedantry Smallpox still exists in two laboratories (The U.S, and Russia).
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Obexer
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Postby Obexer » Fri Sep 25, 2015 1:29 pm

Parskahye wrote:
Conserative Morality wrote:Has someone just read "The Decline of the West"?


I'm a fan of Spengler, but I disagree that civilizations go into unstoppable declines or that they can't be reinvigorated (China as an example of that).

Wait, so you did just read it?
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Nirvash Type TheEND
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Postby Nirvash Type TheEND » Fri Sep 25, 2015 1:30 pm

The Hobbesian Metaphysician wrote:
Nirvash Type TheEND wrote:Progress put food in your belly. It put clothes on your back. It eliminated smallpox, and someday soon, polio. It has curved the proportionate death toll from tribal warfrare, proportionately speaking, nine times. It curved the murder rate in comparison to medieval Europe thirty times. It's feeding children in Africa for answering grammar questions on a not-for-profit game site. More people have been lifted out of poverty in the past decade proportionately than at any point before in recorded history. Wage gaps between the genders are narrowing. Human lifespans are becoming longer and overall healthier. HIV-AIDS infection rates have stabilized, and cancer rates are beginning to fall. Workers are putting in fewer hours for higher pay, and the average home is much, much larger. You can now communicate face to face with people across the world in real-time. You can share information with hundreds of thousands of people in an instant, with the push of a button. We have prosthesis that can feel. We can see another person's dreams. Progress pierced the heavens.

Progress is not a myth. It's a very real phenomenon. No amount of pessimism can stop it.

In a note of pedantry Smallpox still exists in two laboratories (The U.S, and Russia).

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Eol Sha
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Postby Eol Sha » Fri Sep 25, 2015 1:34 pm

I fail to see what's wrong with letting people do what they want so long as no one else is hurt in the process.

I don't know if your religious, but I don't see the appeal of authoritarian and moralistic governments.
Last edited by Eol Sha on Fri Sep 25, 2015 1:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
You'd better believe I'm a bitter Bernie Sanders supporter. The Dems fucked up and fucked up hard. Hopefully they'll learn that neoliberalism and maintaining the status quo isn't the way to win this election or any other one. I doubt they will, though.

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New Werpland
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Postby New Werpland » Fri Sep 25, 2015 1:35 pm

The "neoliberal consensus" is not collapsing, there are no huge threats to the west, and I doubt that your moral beliefs are completely devoid of Social Liberalism.

Parskahye wrote:
Conserative Morality wrote:Has someone just read "The Decline of the West"?


I'm a fan of Spengler, but I disagree that civilizations go into unstoppable declines or that they can't be reinvigorated (China as an example of that).

You also know that they engineered their own financial collapse via the one child policy, it'll be just a few decades before they're overwhelmed with old people.
Last edited by New Werpland on Fri Sep 25, 2015 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Hiblaaargh
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Postby Hiblaaargh » Fri Sep 25, 2015 1:37 pm

Therefore, only the antithesis is true. End the decadents or God will sentence us to eternal torment!
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Parskahye
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Postby Parskahye » Fri Sep 25, 2015 1:39 pm

Nirvash Type TheEND wrote:Progress put food in your belly. It put clothes on your back. It eliminated smallpox, and someday soon, polio. It has curved the proportionate death toll from tribal warfrare, proportionately speaking, nine times. It curved the murder rate in comparison to medieval Europe thirty times. It's feeding children in Africa for answering grammar questions on a not-for-profit game site. More people have been lifted out of poverty in the past decade proportionately than at any point before in recorded history. Wage gaps between the genders are narrowing. Human lifespans are becoming longer and overall healthier. HIV-AIDS infection rates have stabilized, and cancer rates are beginning to fall. Workers are putting in fewer hours for higher pay, and the average home is much, much larger. You can now communicate face to face with people across the world in real-time. You can share information with hundreds of thousands of people in an instant, with the push of a button. We have prosthesis that can feel. We can see another person's dreams. Progress pierced the heavens.

Progress is not a myth. It's a very real phenomenon. No amount of pessimism can stop it.


Progress poisoned the Earth and scoured the seas of life. Progress bulldozed the tapestry of global culture and replaced it with McDonalds and Michael Bay. Progress destroyed organic society and replaced it with anomie. Progress killed God. Progress tore the peasant from his 155 days of work a year and threw him into 18 hour shifts in soot-covered factory towns. Progress beheaded authority and replaced it with anarcho-tyrrany. Progress gave us industrial war and industrial genocide.

Nothing comes without trade-offs. Technical-scientific progress has had some extraordinarily positive effects, but there have been extraordinary negative consequences which have emerged from the industrial revolution.

In any case, however, you're defining progress by its technical-scientific side. That develops largely orthogonally from the idea of political or social progress. Technical progress can certainly be noted and certainly occurs, though I'm less optimistic about it than you are. My problem is that the term is conflated with political or social progress, which is largely just decadence and the justification of decadence.
Pro: Radical Traditionalism, Monarchy, Organic State, Rene Guenon, Thomas Carlyle, Julius Evola, Alain de Benoist, Carl Schmitt, the European New Right, Russia, Bashar Assad, Lee Kwan Yew, Viktor Orban, Francisco Franco, Nagorno Karabakh independence

Neutral/Mixed: Iran, Fascism, Libertarianism, the Austrian School of Economics

Con: Democracy, Liberalism, Egalitarianism, Neo-Conservatism, Neoliberalism, The Democratic Party, the Republican Party, Critical Theory, Marxism-Leninism, Socialism, the European Union, Environmental Determinism, National Socialism, Saudi Arabia, The Islamic State

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Postby Geilinor » Fri Sep 25, 2015 1:39 pm

Progress is subjective and not all change is good. However, I believe that the technological, social, and economic development of our society over the past three hundred years has generally been positive.
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New Werpland
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Postby New Werpland » Fri Sep 25, 2015 1:40 pm

Parskahye wrote:Progress poisoned the Earth and scoured the seas of life. Progress bulldozed the tapestry of global culture and replaced it with McDonalds and Michael Bay.

Are you saying tradition, by law, can never be as bad as Michael Bay?
Last edited by New Werpland on Fri Sep 25, 2015 1:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Eol Sha
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Postby Eol Sha » Fri Sep 25, 2015 1:43 pm

Parskahye wrote:
Nirvash Type TheEND wrote:Progress put food in your belly. It put clothes on your back. It eliminated smallpox, and someday soon, polio. It has curved the proportionate death toll from tribal warfrare, proportionately speaking, nine times. It curved the murder rate in comparison to medieval Europe thirty times. It's feeding children in Africa for answering grammar questions on a not-for-profit game site. More people have been lifted out of poverty in the past decade proportionately than at any point before in recorded history. Wage gaps between the genders are narrowing. Human lifespans are becoming longer and overall healthier. HIV-AIDS infection rates have stabilized, and cancer rates are beginning to fall. Workers are putting in fewer hours for higher pay, and the average home is much, much larger. You can now communicate face to face with people across the world in real-time. You can share information with hundreds of thousands of people in an instant, with the push of a button. We have prosthesis that can feel. We can see another person's dreams. Progress pierced the heavens.

Progress is not a myth. It's a very real phenomenon. No amount of pessimism can stop it.


Progress poisoned the Earth and scoured the seas of life. Progress bulldozed the tapestry of global culture and replaced it with McDonalds and Michael Bay. Progress destroyed organic society and replaced it with anomie. Progress killed God. Progress tore the peasant from his 155 days of work a year and threw him into 18 hour shifts in soot-covered factory towns. Progress beheaded authority and replaced it with anarcho-tyrrany. Progress gave us industrial war and industrial genocide.

Nothing comes without trade-offs. Technical-scientific progress has had some extraordinarily positive effects, but there have been extraordinary negative consequences which have emerged from the industrial revolution.

In any case, however, you're defining progress by its technical-scientific side. That develops largely orthogonally from the idea of political or social progress. Technical progress can certainly be noted and certainly occurs, though I'm less optimistic about it than you are. My problem is that the term is conflated with political or social progress, which is largely just decadence and the justification of decadence.

Can we stop acting like "progress" is some anthropomorphic being with a will and a conscience. Humans did all of that. Not "progress".
You'd better believe I'm a bitter Bernie Sanders supporter. The Dems fucked up and fucked up hard. Hopefully they'll learn that neoliberalism and maintaining the status quo isn't the way to win this election or any other one. I doubt they will, though.

"What's the number one method of achieving civil rights in America? Don't scare the white folks." ~ Eol Sha

Praise be to C-SPAN - Democrats Should Listen to Sanders - How I Voted on November 8, 2016 - Trump's Foreign Policy: Do Stupid Shit - Trump's Clock is Ticking

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Parskahye
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Postby Parskahye » Fri Sep 25, 2015 1:43 pm

New Werpland wrote:
Parskahye wrote:Progress poisoned the Earth and scoured the seas of life. Progress bulldozed the tapestry of global culture and replaced it with McDonalds and Michael Bay.

Are you saying tradition, by law, can never be as bad as Michael Bay?


Of course not. Michael Bay is just a proxy for what I see as the problem with modern culture- it's largely an exercise in marketing which results in the creation of pablum that's designed to maximize revenue for the creators.
Pro: Radical Traditionalism, Monarchy, Organic State, Rene Guenon, Thomas Carlyle, Julius Evola, Alain de Benoist, Carl Schmitt, the European New Right, Russia, Bashar Assad, Lee Kwan Yew, Viktor Orban, Francisco Franco, Nagorno Karabakh independence

Neutral/Mixed: Iran, Fascism, Libertarianism, the Austrian School of Economics

Con: Democracy, Liberalism, Egalitarianism, Neo-Conservatism, Neoliberalism, The Democratic Party, the Republican Party, Critical Theory, Marxism-Leninism, Socialism, the European Union, Environmental Determinism, National Socialism, Saudi Arabia, The Islamic State

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Geilinor
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Postby Geilinor » Fri Sep 25, 2015 1:43 pm

Parskahye wrote:
Progress bulldozed the tapestry of global culture and replaced it with McDonalds and Michael Bay.

You're simply wrong on that point. Culture still exists and has not been replaced by anything. Eating at a McDonalds or watching a Michael Bay movie doesn't mean that your culture is gone.
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Eol Sha
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Postby Eol Sha » Fri Sep 25, 2015 1:43 pm

New Werpland wrote:
Parskahye wrote:Progress poisoned the Earth and scoured the seas of life. Progress bulldozed the tapestry of global culture and replaced it with McDonalds and Michael Bay.

Are you saying tradition, by law, can never be as bad as Michael Bay?

What makes it better?

I like the Transformers films. >:(
You'd better believe I'm a bitter Bernie Sanders supporter. The Dems fucked up and fucked up hard. Hopefully they'll learn that neoliberalism and maintaining the status quo isn't the way to win this election or any other one. I doubt they will, though.

"What's the number one method of achieving civil rights in America? Don't scare the white folks." ~ Eol Sha

Praise be to C-SPAN - Democrats Should Listen to Sanders - How I Voted on November 8, 2016 - Trump's Foreign Policy: Do Stupid Shit - Trump's Clock is Ticking

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Postby Diopolis » Fri Sep 25, 2015 1:44 pm

You're forgetting how progress is defined by progressives- as a loss of discipline and increase in permissiveness, and to a lesser extent, as the replacement of morality with hedonism as the governor of human life.
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Galloism
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Postby Galloism » Fri Sep 25, 2015 1:44 pm

Geilinor wrote:
Parskahye wrote:
Progress bulldozed the tapestry of global culture and replaced it with McDonalds and Michael Bay.

You're simply wrong on that point. Culture still exists and has not been replaced by anything. Eating at a McDonalds or watching a Michael Bay movie doesn't mean that your culture is gone.

But it does mean you have no taste.

In every sense.
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Conserative Morality
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Postby Conserative Morality » Fri Sep 25, 2015 1:44 pm

Parskahye wrote:I'm a fan of Spengler, but I disagree that civilizations go into unstoppable declines or that they can't be reinvigorated (China as an example of that).

Spengler's work is very interesting... but it is a product of his era. Whether it's outdated or just different is irrelevant, unless you embrace the outlook of the Great War era. At the end of the day, he does not see things as we can now.

Also, as a history major? All this cyclical stuff is bullshit, like historical materialism.
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New Werpland
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Postby New Werpland » Fri Sep 25, 2015 1:44 pm

Parskahye wrote:
New Werpland wrote:Are you saying tradition, by law, can never be as bad as Michael Bay?


Of course not. Michael Bay is just a proxy for what I see as the problem with modern culture- it's largely an exercise in marketing which results in the creation of pablum that's designed to maximize revenue for the creators.

And what makes tradition any better?

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Eol Sha
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Postby Eol Sha » Fri Sep 25, 2015 1:44 pm

Geilinor wrote:
Parskahye wrote:
Progress bulldozed the tapestry of global culture and replaced it with McDonalds and Michael Bay.

You're simply wrong on that point. Culture still exists and has not been replaced by anything. Eating at a McDonalds or watching a Michael Bay movie doesn't mean that your culture is gone.

If anything it means that the culture is changing/adapting/expanding.
You'd better believe I'm a bitter Bernie Sanders supporter. The Dems fucked up and fucked up hard. Hopefully they'll learn that neoliberalism and maintaining the status quo isn't the way to win this election or any other one. I doubt they will, though.

"What's the number one method of achieving civil rights in America? Don't scare the white folks." ~ Eol Sha

Praise be to C-SPAN - Democrats Should Listen to Sanders - How I Voted on November 8, 2016 - Trump's Foreign Policy: Do Stupid Shit - Trump's Clock is Ticking

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Justin States 3
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Postby Justin States 3 » Fri Sep 25, 2015 1:45 pm

Nirvash Type TheEND wrote:Progress put food in your belly. It put clothes on your back. It eliminated smallpox, and someday soon, polio. It has curved the proportionate death toll from tribal warfrare, proportionately speaking, nine times. It curved the murder rate in comparison to medieval Europe thirty times. It's feeding children in Africa for answering grammar questions on a not-for-profit game site. More people have been lifted out of poverty in the past decade proportionately than at any point before in recorded history. Wage gaps between the genders are narrowing. Human lifespans are becoming longer and overall healthier. HIV-AIDS infection rates have stabilized, and cancer rates are beginning to fall. Workers are putting in fewer hours for higher pay, and the average home is much, much larger. You can now communicate face to face with people across the world in real-time. You can share information with hundreds of thousands of people in an instant, with the push of a button. We have prosthesis that can feel. We can see another person's dreams. Progress pierced the heavens.

Progress is not a myth. It's a very real phenomenon. No amount of pessimism can stop it.

Will quote this in sig.
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Conserative Morality
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Postby Conserative Morality » Fri Sep 25, 2015 1:45 pm

Diopolis wrote:You're forgetting how progress is defined by progressives- as a loss of discipline and increase in permissiveness, and to a lesser extent, as the replacement of morality with hedonism as the governor of human life.

As a progressive, I object to that. Not only does progressivism not forgo discipline, but hedonism is far more often the domain of traditionalists anymore.
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