A Modern World (AMW) Applications Center

by **Chrinthanium** » Tue Sep 08, 2015 7:16 pm

I would like to humbly request an expansion of the Iberian Empire. I would like to add the following locations:

Seychelles: 92.430 (2015 est population, CIA)
French Polynesia: 282,703 (2015 est population, CIA)
Sumba Island of Indonesia: 611,954 (2010 population, Wikipedia)

Total additional population: 987, 087

New Iberian Population with additions would be: 60,347,072

by **AMW Applications** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 12:02 am

AMW Claims Map Update

10 Sept 2015, 03:00 US EDT (07:00 GMT/UTC)

New map: http://i.imgur.com/PyjgnFz.png

Removals

Nibelunc: Nation (Cassanos) CTE'd

Additions

NONE

Pending Claims

Councordia: Player still attempting to find right map location for claim
Iberia: Expansion for nation (Chrinthanium) still pending for now

by **The Crooked Beat** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 5:21 pm

I was just wondering, is it absolutely necessary to remove Cass? He's gone and disappeared like this before, and eventually returned, at least for a spell. Suppose I'm reluctant above all to write him off, and troubled also by the sudden emergence of a gaping hole in AMW's physical and political-strategic geography.

by **Chrinthanium** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 5:28 pm

Yes because he and I talked directly about it two weeks ago. And there's no movement. I know we're slow and all, but he's just too busy for AMW.

by **Europe - Prussia** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 9:32 pm

So, given recent events and after some talks on IRC, I'd like to formally request a shift of my claim, with Germany at the center of it. I feel that my claim would work better in an area that is more easily identifiable as, well, German, than France, which is the place my claim is centered on.

I'll keep the name of Valendia and most of the history I'm currently using though, with a few modifications of course. Also, If no one minds I'd like to keep a few overseas possessions so there's a "we attempted to enter on the colonial race, but we failed at the end" feeling.

Imperial Federation of Valendia

Claim: Germany, Denmark, Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg, Brunei, Mauritius, Sao Tome and Principe, Ernakulam district of Kerala, India.
Population: 120,428,831

Capital and Largest City: Steyr (RL Hamburg)
Government: Federal Monarchy
- Emperor: HI & RM Albrecht V
- High Chancellor: Maximilian von Einzbern
- Lord Speaker: Theodor van de Claudel
- Lord Chief of Justice: Detlef Fleisher
Legislature: Landsraad (unicameral)
GDP: US$ 4,365,063 mill.
GDP per capita: US$ 36,246
Currency: Valendian Mark (Vℳ)

History

This claim would follow a similar history to my previous one: a group of disjointed kingdoms with a common culture and ancestry. Here's the catch however: it will be a Order of Chivalry that will unify the kingdoms into the empire, but instead of Germans the order will be composed by Celts. I'd like to give this little twist because I like to give some irony to my stories, that's all

. These Celts come from a tribe that, unlike their Geletian cousins, laid roots somewhere between Denmark and the Netherlands, probably looking other places than ol' Geletia or Gaul. Eventually they were converted to Christianity, received a "vision" from a Saint, gave their support to a noble, and began the unification.

From here, it would go similarly: an attempted rebellion, followed by a civil war over religion, the colonial race, then the fall of the old dynasty (of Celtic origin by the way) to give way to revolution, at this point would come Napoleon I think?, then would come a new dynasty (%100 German), and eventually the Great War. I'll leave it at this point because this is something we must discuss all of us.

Government

Officially, it a federal monarchy, but actually its a constitutional monarchy: There's a legislative, a executive derivative from it, a separate judiciary and in theory an emperor with ample powers and the balance between the legislative, executive and judiciary. Actually, its the High Chancellor that wields the power in the emperor's name.

The empire is divided in constituent nations, according to their cultural roots. Each one of them has its own federal government, legislative and judiciary, though in extreme circumstances the Landsraad can overturn their decisions, which happens more often than one can imagine, much to the ire of the constituent nations.

The armed forces are a key factor on the empire, especially its Military Orders, which are Valendia's elite forces.

Culture

Valendia, as a whole, is highly militaristic, with a heavy emphasis on the concept of duty towards the family and the nation. Military enlistment is voluntary and starts at 16, though there's always a high number of volunteers because it gives you higher changes at getting a job or entering University if you passed through one of the Empire's military academies. To a lot of people the highest honor is climbing to the highest ranks of the empire's military orders of knighthood.

Their history of warfare has given the people of Valendia a very tolerant outlook of life, like on religion, homosexuality, abortion and the like, with a few exceptions. They don't tend to listen to foreigners on these issues, like the Pope. Actually, I think that if Kyle used more aggressively the Vatican we would have a war in our hands pretty quickly, or at least the Reformation would have begun in the 1300's.

What the people of Valendia doesn't tolerate however, is uselessness, weakness and betrayal; those who like to live an easy life and don't fulfill their duties seriously are looked down upon and are treated as outcasts, thus the reason they don't see with good eyes people like Nate.

Economy

Here I'll follow the same pattern than my old claim: an advanced economy, with a lot of industry, especially on cars, trains, chemicals, aerospace industry and so on, and so forth. I'll not say anything about trade until the relations with my neighbors is cleared up. On energy I will follow RL Germany's example: a lot of clean energy, with its odd nuclear plant thrown in.

by **Chrinthanium** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 10:01 pm

And now this is where Chrin makes Ian drink... again. Considering the rather lengthy discussions in IRC this evening, and on account of a lot of stressing on my part, I have for your approval a new application for AMW. Before I do this, in order to accommodate this new claim, I am officially dropping Chrinthania as a separate claim. It'll all make sense when you read the following:

Empire of Chrinthania

Claim: Spain (Minus North African enclaves, including Canary Islands), Portugal (minus Azores, including Madeira), France (as defined as mainland France and Corsica), Seychelles, Sumba Island of Indonesia, French Polynesia, Cabo Verde, Andorra, Monaco, Gibraltar.

Total Population: 123,022,653
GDP per capita: 30,000 USD
Total GDP: 3,690,679,590,000
Capital: Paris
Largest City: Madrid
Government: Constitutional Monarchy
Head of State: Emperor Nathaniel IV
Head of Government: Prime Minister Eduardo Suarez
Currency: Chrinthani Pound

History

The history would follow along a line that I have continued to work out for Iberia which is, well, of a Valendian sort, apparently, where various smaller kingdoms were absorbed either through capitulation or conquest between the fall of the Roman Empire and the 1700s. An empire that now finds itself in decline in the 20th century, for the most part.

Great War history was discussed in IRC and it would include a Chrinthani-Valendian-Geletian axis of power vs the allied other nations. Specifically for Chrinthania, the militarists were in power prior the onset of war and pretty much the emperor didn't really stop anything that was going on. They join in on whatever splinters Europe and erupts into total war. A few years in, the Chrinthani people revolt and a civil war begins dragging the Chrinthani out of the Great War altogether. Eventually the militarists are ousted and the communists take over, who abolish the monarchy, till after the Great War. Another civil war takes place in the early 50s with the royalists gaining control over the communists and restores the monarchy in a limited state creating the current government structure.

Economy

The economy is highly developed with telecommunications (including communication satellites), tourism, aerospace and defense, ship building (naval and specialist ships), pharmaceuticals, construction and civil engineering, chemicals, textiles, and automobile production as the main driving forces of the economy.

Culture

Does anyone here not know how the Chrinthani culture works? Liberal, party lovers, hedonistic in general, more pacifist in the modern day... I think you all get the gist.

Government

Constitutional Monarchy with the Emperor as Head of State. Elected parliament that manages the day-to-day affairs of the nation. So forth and so on, really. Pretty straight forward Constitutional Monarchy.

by **Great Italy** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 7:07 am

Well, I've been out of the loop for quite some time (RL hates me

), sorry bout that. Still working on 2016 Italian elections, though. So with all of these changes, does it mean that Switzerland (and Liechtenstein?) is now a hole between Chrinthania, Valendia, Italy, and Geletia? Will Councordia move to the Alps?

If not, I might stake an extension into the Alps of RL Switzerland, which, given its transalpine location, I plan to contain two- to three- small member states with non-Italian populations, related to populations in the neighboring countries, but whose loyalty belongs to the Confederation. (Which could've been one of the sparks for war during the course of history.)

Chrinthanium wrote:Great War history was discussed in IRC and it would include a Chrinthani-Valendian-Geletian axis of power vs the allied other nations. Specifically for Chrinthania, the militarists were in power prior the onset of war and pretty much the emperor didn't really stop anything that was going on. They join in on whatever splinters Europe and erupts into total war. A few years in, the Chrinthani people revolt and a civil war begins dragging the Chrinthani out of the Great War altogether. Eventually the militarists are ousted and the communists take over, who abolish the monarchy, till after the Great War. Another civil war takes place in the early 50s with the royalists gaining control over the communists and restores the monarchy in a limited state creating the current government structure.

That means Italy would be utterly crushed.

Halp.

I'm curious as to how relations were postwar. On one hand the commies helped end the war; on the other, the famously mercantile republics of the Confederation would be averse to commie economic ideology... :unsure:

The Confederate solution might revert to the default.

by **Councordia** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 8:38 am

I'd like to go with the Norwegian claim as previously discussed

by **Beddgelert** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 9:25 am

Well, I'm not entirely happy with the way things are going, but if we've lost Cass then there's really no avoiding drastic reform, so I'm not going to oppose whatever makes things work for two of our key players.

Passing question: What's the deal with the Bretons- do they become a Chrinthani minority, move to... Denmark or something, or disappear?

On the Great War hey, don't forget the Pact's very important Shieldians!

I suppose... Chrinthani aims in the war are to take control of access to the Mediterranean and maybe build a North African empire at Italy's expense after failing to compete with the British further afield? And Valendia... wants living space in whatever country appears in Poland and the Czech Republic. Don't much envy the British position if both Chrin and EP decide to conduct their own Blitz!

Oh, and I'll have to ask about modern relations, but maybe I'll do that in IRC at some point. We'd only recently talked about a short-lived Valendo-Geletian détente during the 1980s and 90s, including the arrival in Geletia of much French military technology, so I'll have to bore you both with questions about that. If all else fails, I'll fall back on the Romanian fighter project instead of the Rafale-like Yugo option, and just steal the light helicopter design from... one of you.

by **Beddgelert** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 9:26 am

Councordia wrote:I'd like to go with the Norwegian claim as previously discussed

That gets my vote.

by **Beddgelert** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 9:35 am

Great Italy wrote:Well, I've been out of the loop for quite some time (RL hates me ), sorry bout that. Still working on 2016 Italian elections, though. So with all of these changes, does it mean that Switzerland (and Liechtenstein?) is now a hole between Chrinthania, Valendia, Italy, and Geletia? Will Councordia move to the Alps? If not, I might stake an extension into the Alps of RL Switzerland, which, given its transalpine location, I plan to contain two- to three- small member states with non-Italian populations, related to populations in the neighboring countries, but whose loyalty belongs to the Confederation. (Which could've been one of the sparks for war during the course of history.)

That means Italy would be utterly crushed. Halp.

I'm curious as to how relations were postwar. On one hand the commies helped end the war; on the other, the famously mercantile republics of the Confederation would be averse to commie economic ideology... The Confederate solution might revert to the default.

A Celtic minority amongst those in Switzerland would certainly be used as a clarion call to war by the Geletians through history, regardless of whether they actually wanted anything to do with the Triarchy. Either romanticised as the residents of the birthplace of our culture, or vilified as the most heinous of traitors for going Christian or whatever in that sacred place.

As to the war, yeah, it looks like you at least have a good excuse for needing to be rescued after being jumped by three much larger guys! Post war there seems to have been a widespread but failed bid to bring on world revolution, perhaps as a solution to the horror brought on by the conflict, Chrinthania having a weak Communist government beset by civil war, the Saimonas facing Communist insurgency that didn't quite go far enough to be called civil war, the British, uh, electing Clement Atlee? The other great powers probably directed a lot of energy to supporting the Geletian Principality and Chrinthani rebels, I'd imagine.

Anyway, enough from me, for now!

by **Chemaki** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 9:52 am

I'm happy with Chrin's new claim - it would be nice to have some proper stability somewhere in the world; at least in Western Europe! I'm pretty sure I know what this Chrinthanium entails, looking at your past claims, though I do wonder what Chrinthani foreign policy will be like during the 20th century, especially with this new Valendia thrown into the mix as well. It would be nice to have some sort of Communist-aligned nation to prop up the struggling Soviet movements in Rumyak and Geletia (perhaps even a proxy war between Socialist Chrinthania and Italy being fought out in the Middle East), even if it is only for a decade!

Another issue is that, especially with the... ahem, reasonably large claims that Beeg, E-P and yourself have up, there's nobody really to oppose your axis of evil! A more prosperous Italy, a fairly powerful Greece and Tsagia... still only adds up to ~100 million people, tops. Sure, Rumyak is Aventine being an Italian-Greek backwater, but I wouldn't think a country waist-deep in civil war would contribute much to the European struggle! Gandvik has a lot of power on the Eastern Front, and depending on where the Shield stands it could balance Europe out (though I swear the Shieldians are Oakist, given that they attacked Byzantium... or perhaps I'm just on something and making this up).

The allies in real-life were in a similarly hopeless position in the early 40s, with most of mainland Europe up to the Volga under Axis control, but by this time Chrinthania and Valendia seem to have Western Europe under lock and the most stable region in the world by the start of the war, and aside from the Communists, very few internal problems to deal with. Plus, I just don't see the narrative of the brave and plucky Italians winning the war in Europe, standing alone (perhaps with sloppy guiseppe) in the face of adversity, working...

by **The Crooked Beat** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 12:40 pm

Regarding the Great War (though I'm tending to return to the War of the Pact of Oak as a name, seems to give the affair more the feel of having been latest in a long line of similar intrigues rather than something out of the ordinary), I think there are a bunch of different ways for us to reconcile the apparent balance of power with what actually happened.

First of all, it seems, given the likely state of historical animosities, that the Pact of Oak would only ever have been an alliance of convenience at best, perhaps even explainable as an agreement between the dominant powers of central Europe, conscious of the likelihood that any unilateral move could be taken as an opportunity for aggression by rivals, to team-up against the continent's weaker states and thereby pursue certain ambitions while cooperatively holding Walmington at arm's length. I'd imagine that there might even have been plans in certain capitals for wars after the main event against their erstwhile Oakist allies!

And during the war itself there's very much the possibility that the alliance was fractious and shaky, none of the allies wanting any other to do too well lest it give them a decisive advantage postwar, while it also appears that Chrinthanium-France might have been doomed from the start by a broiling stew of political-factional, regional, and class antagonisms which, as our sketch outline has it, erupted in outright civil war as of 1945 or so. Maybe that could also tie-in with the addition of Spain to the claim, an impoverished, mainly agrarian south holding on to distant memories of independence resenting the Paris establishment at the same time as still-born economic and political reforms fail to provide any outlet for labor unrest, and vested aristocratic interests chafe under the financial burdens imposed by a global war against industrial-powerhouse Walmington and its even mightier American ally? Or even an industrial-Paris-burgher segment set against a Southern-Spanish ruling dynasty and its agrarian, aristocratic backers?

Who knows, maybe Chrinthania-France only really became a highly-centralized modern state in the wake of its civil war, the reaction against Napoleon having been more ferocious than in RL?

As for Valendia, clearly the prospect of a super-Germany, which was already a European monster in RL, carries strong significance for the pre-war balance of power, though then again maybe the peculiarly Valendian custom of military orders, and the persistence of chivalry in certain forms, maybe even economic ones, impeded the growth of heavy industry, or at least forced it into geographic concentrations in a manner similar to France, with a resulting, almost medieval opposition of burghers and aristocrats whose interests were not always in alignment? Equally Valendian knightly proclivities could have blocked the creation of modern mass armies and highly-centralized general staff systems, leading on the one hand to a preference for adept and well-furnished yet small and in an attritional sense irreplaceable military formations and on the other to a divided command structure where no single leader held supreme authority, and where noblemen-generals were able, perhaps even expected, to seek glory and personal acclaim whether or not their actions fit any greater strategic picture?

In Valendia's case, it could have been a war experience not too unlike Geletia's, where the trappings of a warrior culture tend to get in the way of waging modern war.

I guess there's the risk of getting too far ahead of ourselves before borders are finalized. Basically, I would say that, whatever the geographical outcome happens to be, there are plenty of ways to write the history.

Unhappy as the fact of Cass's evidently planned indefinite withdrawal from AMW is, and it's unhappy indeed for reasons already stated, it does seem as though the gap left by Nibelunc's disappearance does need to be filled, and I guess the way we're going about doing that works well enough. It could even work very well, if we get it right!

I'm personally mostly OK with the revised claims as posted thus far, though I would prefer it if the economies of both Valendia and Chrinthania were significantly less wealthy, by one-quarter to one-third of their current figures. For major powers like that, with populations well above the 100-million mark, truly top-tier wealth as it's understood today in RL is I think not altogether reasonable, since the global market must look very different in AMW. There needs to be at least a tiny level of industrial grittiness to these very large and undeniably powerful nations.

Given the balance of power as it now stands, Switzerland looks like a very reasonable addition to Italy.

by **Chrinthanium** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 2:27 pm

I just woke up. Quite late for me on a cab work day. Still, AMW business to tend to prior to getting ready (it helps the only thing I have to do is get ready and jump in the cab conveniently located outside my front door).

Let me hit the easy part first: Economy. I am willing to do a reduction in economy, but there's plenty of AMW nations in the past with nearly similar figures that have been placed into play. I think I'll consider it if E-P does the same.

Great War: Here's the messy part.

1: To be honest, the idea of joining Geletia and Valendia seemed like a cool idea and one I could work with. The idea I had been concocting was that, in the 1930s a group of military leaders were in power. They pretty much had the emperor under their control, though he wasn't really resisting their demands. Eventually, the war turns bad (because it will when Walmington and America are both slugging away and Gandvik begins to lend its weight to European stability) and the emperor, himself never really for or against what was going on begins to make noise to give the idea that he's rather powerless to do anything at this point to stop the war, which is quickly becoming unpopular with the people (I suppose they Chrinthani can have a change of heart if it sees their military used in an offensive war like this). Military units stop fighting the Aventines and begin to fight against the powers-that-be led by Communists who blame the monarchy of pretty much everything. The Civil War pulls Chrinthania out of the war because, basically, the troops are needed back home for both side, the Communists win the Civil War and take power removing the monarchy and establishing a Republic of sorts. The republic is shaky at best with enough bad blood already between the sides to break open again around 1951 until the royalists, who still believe the monarch was a puppet of the former regime, win the day and reestablish the monarchy. To appease the opposing side, though, the monarchy is finally given some limits in its power thus creating a Constitutional Monarchy that finally brings a stable government to Chrinthania.

The Pact is, as TCB put it, shaky at best and probably just a pact of convenience to achieve everyone's immediate goals. It had to be shaky because the moment the internal situation in Chrinthania went south it erupts into a civil war with the military having to quite literally return home to deal with it on both sides (I see a lot of internal factions here each with support of portions of the armed services).

2: Italy. Not sure how this all works on you, but as I see it, we probably let Valendia and Geletia deal with Italy proper while the undertook a North African campaign. At least in my own thoughts, this was to ensure that Rome could be silenced quickly and powerfully. The Chrinthani, as stated prior, know that the British are just a few miles across the channel and probably won't like what's happening. They also realize that they're probably the Pacts best hope of preventing the Isles from getting to involved in the rest of the war. With Valendian assistance, it could be postulated that the British could, essentially, be held in their island prison while other assets from the Royal Navy would take a while to get to Europe, then the Chrinthani Navy along with the Valendian Navy could scuttle them and keep them at bay. Of course, this all hinges on the Pact not breaking down... which happens a few years into the war when internal politics in Chrinthania boils over to outright violence.

3: The people of Chrinthani probably never were for the war, but didn't think they could do much to stop it until the war was ongoing and their sons and brothers and sisters and mothers were all dying for, what they believe, was nothing. It only took a few years before the people, particularly parts of the military, started to openly question just what they were fighting for. It probably didn't help that defenses against the Aventines weren't working with American and British military units pressing the Pacts military units back and back. In fact, if the American and British are willing, some sort of amphibious landing in France itself could probably be all that is needed to give the people enough backbone to revolt. Perhaps some Aventine psychological warfare?

4: If I had to use RL comparisons to the internal politics of Chrinthani prior to and during the Great War, the leadership is probably taken from a rough idea of the Japanese prior to and during World War 2 in as much as militarist leaders were in charge and the emperor wasn't able to, or didn't really attempt to, prevent the inevitable disaster from happening. I also see a RL Italy comparison with enough defeats earlier on in the war causing the people to revolt and a civil war explode into being.

As TCB points out, and I have alluded to, the modern, stronger, and more centralized government of Chrinthania comes into being post war. His use of Napoleon probably hints at my idea that Iberia came into the empire no later than Napoleon. So, he'll be useful to me. In fact, this whole ordeal probably begins with framework he set up during his empire and it isn't until the people have finally had enough that this style of rule ends.

Chrinthani foreign policy will, since the 1950s, be rather fractured with Valendia and Geletia (and its successor states) for some time. I am certain it took the Italian Confederation a lot of time to deal with our transgressions. I kind of see the Chrinthani as, since the 1950s, having a real sorrow over the entire war, regrets of grievances committed against others, and probably the only nation in Europe that, in the present day, really just wants peace and love and happiness. I kind of use the postwar Chrinthania to bring into being the modern Chrinthani cultural traits of peace and love and unity and all that because no one wants a repeat of the Great War in Chrinthania.

I do see the outside world assisting the fight against the Communists in Chrinthani in the early 1950s. Perhaps a European version of the Korean War, though there isn't a partitioned nation (A French Kim Jung-Un?) that is formed. Probably this is why the Chrinthani have a Constitutional Monarchy. The Americans and British probably sat down and made a few demands and the basic deal is that we go more republic than monarchy or we'll get a much harsher deal postwar.

Bretons: a minority in Chrinthania. They've not gone anywhere. They're still here being all Breton. However, they're probably the only place left in Chrinthania that elects communists to government on any regular basis--perhaps taking cues from their distance ancestors in the Southeast of Europe.

Councordia, Scandinavia it is for you.

Italy can have Switzerland for all I care.

by **Amerique** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 3:43 pm

While I understand the urge shift claims and grab what opened up in key historical areas to have some surviving history, I have to say I'm skeptical about these new plans. While population levels are at acceptable levels and the theory in AMW is that any location is all just as legitimate, in practice I feel like we may be missing an opportunity by immediately swallowing up any opening in Europe.

Try as one might, most people, even good RPers, tend to look to Europe for the ideal spot for most nations and I'm afraid we might be taking up some prime real estate for potential new claimants to AMW. I have had three experienced people in particular express interest in AMW (though not necessarily in Europe) but there may be others who would want the opportunity to be in that spot. Large claims in South America or Africa are certainly different than large ones in Europe. I feel like we should leave either France or Germany, the largest nations in Europe, open for the time being.

by **The Crooked Beat** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 5:49 pm

You definitely raise a valid objection, Amerique, and it's perfectly possible that we're getting way ahead of ourselves here, though I would also say that, as we aren't exactly getting buried in applications, if we decide to wait it seems like we might be waiting for a very long time. Anything more you can tell us about these potential applicants? Any chance they might want to at least post a rough outline, test out the lay of the land sort of thing?

I wonder if perhaps Chrin could be persuaded, through colonial compensation, to make do without Iberia for the moment, perhaps getting a piece of the low countries in return? Louis XIV always had his eye on the Spanish Netherlands after all. And I would point out that we also have that slice of Poland and the Czech Republic, what was Cass's eastern border, open, and while clearly a lot smaller than most other European claims it's located right in with all the action.

Maybe we're rushing into this without thinking it through fully, that's a definite risk, but I hesitate to halt the process in order to guarantee free space, in an area that was until very recently filled to begin with, for new claimants that may or may not appear.

In short, if we could know a bit more about how interested these potential claimants are, I think that would make the picture a lot clearer. I don't see any real reason why we couldn't agree to hold off on making things official for a little bit, or maybe try to cut back the claims slightly, so that there's more space left open if new people do decide to join. Then again, we'll have to see what everyone else says about it.

by **Chrinthanium** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 5:59 pm

Why not just leave the entire map open in case somebody decides they want to claim something that's already claimed? I don't mind leaving spaces for new players, and certainly we want to encourage new players to show up and apply for claims here, but the idea of just keeping something open on the off chance somebody might want it later seems a bit ridiculous to me. I'm not trying to knock anybody's ideas, but leaving it open just for the hope of enticing someone else to show up doesn't seem like a valid reason to leave it open.

this all being said, I did already pre plan for the potential that somebody would go and raise this objection. Rather than lay out an entire argument as to why I think my statements above are valid and I should go ahead with what I have already claimed, I can augment the current claim to fit the objection and still achieve the goal I am looking for. However, before I go and post it later on today when I get home from work I would appreciate taking the claim on its merits and not simply what land it occupies.

by **Amerique** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 6:24 pm

That's quite a strawman there. By the same token I could say why don't we just divide up most of the empty spaces on the map among the existing players because we have no new applicants at the moment. Why leave any desirable land open at all then? Why even have an applications thread? As you can see, these rhetorical non-sequitors get us nowhere.

I was merely stating that it would be more attractive for new nations to have at least some sizeable room left in Europe. When I joined AMW, for example, the average nation was generally a little more restricted but we made do. One could fit two nations in France by previous standards. Is there a reason that this new claim idea or history background cannot be satisfied by Spain and Portugal combined as a base (or whatever existing land we have)? It's kind of a question for us all to ask ourselves before moving spots in the world or expanding to fill gaps.

by **Chrinthanium** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 6:28 am

There would only be Chrinthania. A nation that has lasted in Europe, in various forms, since the fall of the Roman Empire (maybe). It would have a language. It could be Spanish or French or Portuguese... or all three... or English (because they can, this is make believe after all). What I am creating here isn't an amalgamation of all three RL nations. It isn't some super-confederacy of three aged RL (former and current) European powers. It's one Chrinthani nation that has everything the Chrinthani nation I created long before I even heard of AMW had. It's bringing the original Chrinthani to AMW, placing them in a modern-day setting, and letting them be themselves. This is it. This is the Chrinthani promised land. And right now I have one member wanting me to chuck it in the bin because, at some point in the future, perhaps, someone will come this way, look at the map and go, "Gee, there's a European hole. Let me fill it with my national goodness."

I mean, if you want a serious, lengthy history explanation that ties it all together, I can tell you this is the wrong tree, stop barking. I don't do long-winded history. I do overviews when I feel the need to write history. And, believe it or not, most of my factbooks kind of lack that section. I'm already writing my Great War history. And that should be astounding to everyone else since I am the Great War's biggest opponent. Or at least I used to be. Till I had found a way to make it fun for me. I'm actually reading history of France and other Spanish and Portuguese history to see what I can take from it, amend to fit the Chrinthani, then work into this idea. The pulse is racing with excitement, the document program is blinking its cursor at me waiting for me to finish whatever tidbit I write next. I honestly do not think I have had this much inspiration from one simple expansion/shift/claim jump before. Not to this degree, anyway.

I don't know what else to say here. I really don't. I'd love your support, but if not, then so be it.

by **Amerique** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 7:12 am

The problem I have is not to do with the Chrinthani idea or demanding that they be French or Spanish or whatever else, that in fact was never part of my posts. It's more a question of whether all of Western Europe is really necessary for this concept to work since it is a sizeable portion of the landmass of Europe. Honestly, your previous indications on Chrinthania were based on them naturally thriving in a sub-tropical environment.

This is not intended in any way to be a personal attack on you, I am just voicing an objection to the reaction to Nibelunc's departure by jumping on available land in Europe (Same could go for whether Valendia needs the Low Countries or all of Germany when Councordia had asked about Bavaria earlier). I don't mind the expanded Chrinthania or Valendia if the community rules in favor, but I think it's good to question expansion as a reaction to members leaving (which we all have done recently). You are also right in that Hawaii isn't as important to my claim since Japan left and there isn't a suitable replacement, which I can drop.

Honestly, though, it's not that big of a deal, I was just offering my two cents and it looks like the idea is mostly approved, which is why I was slightly taken aback by the response.

by **Chrinthanium** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 3:42 pm

Right, with that addressed, let me move onto TCB's GDP issue.

I've been toying with numbers. I am thinking this might suit you better?

GDP per capita: 25,000
Total GDP: 3,075,566,325,000

by **Europe - Prussia** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 6:27 pm

Well, time to address all of these answers.

First, economy. I have no problems with lowering my GDP Originally I wanted to set it at 30k but circumstances (and Chrin) stopped me. So, how about this:
GDP per capita: 33,246
Total GDP: 4,003,776 mill.

Secondly, TCB's analysis. If Valendia followed a parallel Geletia's history it would be accurate, but you should keep in mind that Valendia's history is one of constant warfare, one were wars, both internal and external, rebellions and revolutions happened a lot; any country, any society for that matter, changes due to war. Also, you should keep in mind that, more than a new claim, this is a shifting of Valendia from, speaking in simple terms, from France to Germany. So nope, what you described is so not happening. In the middle ages sure its doable, but when the Enlightenment and the Reformation kicks in .....

On the Celtic minority on Valendia, I'll use the Belgae tribe. I have been some reading, and the Belgae were some kind of half-Celt, half-German tribe that pretty much puzzled Caesar and every Roman that came across them. So yeah, Belgium will exist in AMW, and it will be Celt, or at least half of it.

On Mod's comment that started a whole discussion, I'll remain silent. The matter seems closed so there's no point in saying something. If the matter is brought up again however, I'll give my two cents.

by **Great Italy** » Sun Sep 13, 2015 10:34 am

Beddgelert wrote:A Celtic minority amongst those in Switzerland would certainly be used as a clarion call to war by the Geletians through history, regardless of whether they actually wanted anything to do with the Triarchy. Either romanticised as the residents of the birthplace of our culture, or vilified as the most heinous of traitors for going Christian or whatever in that sacred place.

Of course, if there will be Celts in Graubünden they will probably be Capitalist, Conservative, and Catholic. Although I imagine "most heinous of traitors" is also what Geletians sometimes feel about Venetians, because not only do they have the three C's that Geletians hate, they are also Latinized ex-Celts too.

Chemaki wrote:I'm happy with Chrin's new claim - it would be nice to have some proper stability somewhere in the world; at least in Western Europe! I'm pretty sure I know what this Chrinthanium entails, looking at your past claims, though I do wonder what Chrinthani foreign policy will be like during the 20th century, especially with this new Valendia thrown into the mix as well. It would be nice to have some sort of Communist-aligned nation to prop up the struggling Soviet movements in Rumyak and Geletia (perhaps even a proxy war between Socialist Chrinthania and Italy being fought out in the Middle East), even if it is only for a decade!

Italy underwent on a decolonization streak postwar - meaning that most of the north African colonies of its peninsular members were upgraded to full members. But in terms of foreign policy, it will probably be Venice that will be the consistent meddler in the eastern Med. The other Confederate members prolly won't care and would try to enforce the usual Confederate neutrality.

Chemaki wrote:Plus, I just don't see the narrative of the brave and plucky Italians winning the war in Europe, standing alone (perhaps with sloppy guiseppe) in the face of adversity, working...

Even I don't see it to be possible.

What, the Italians, winners?

Probably the protracted guerrilla war against a large armed population in a mountainous & desert terrain (think of Hitler invading Switzerland - only twenty times bigger, and worse) is enough to prolong the war?

Speaking of GDP, I'd probably be maintaining the Confederation's GDP/cap at around $24-25K, I will be recomputing with Switzerland in the equation. I hope people will make great use of Swiss banks to stash away their cash.

by **Chrinthanium** » Sun Sep 13, 2015 3:05 pm

Another edit. Good ideas keep coming in fast and furious. So, let me do this: rather than a global empire, or a 100+ million claim, I'm going to just go with the following:

Metropolitan France (as defined by the CIA World Factbook and Wikipedia as European France and Corsica): 62,814,233
French Polynesia: 282,703
Monaco: 30,535

Total Population: 63,127,471
GDP per capita: 45,000
Total GDP: 2,840,736,195,000

I think that addresses all issues in one go and gives me a lot less to worry about. Now we can drink wine and look down our noses at the world. Furthermore, Ian needs Spanish for California. So, I will use Spanish in French Basque Country. This way it is a language that is alive. If we get a new player in Spain, they can be people who fled persecution and settled in Chrinland (as stated by Beeg in IRC).

by **Beddgelert** » Sun Sep 13, 2015 4:19 pm

Being as I'm pushing the idea with Chrin on IRC right now, it's fair to say that I support this solution, especially as he seems genuinely enthusiastic about it and I want things to work for our community.

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