[DEFEATED] Right to a Reasonable Income

[Republic of the Cristo]

The Republic of Cristo is one of the most business friendly nations in the world. We have very little poverty, a high education rate, and positive growth. All without every having to use the tyrannical methods of command economics. Go ahead and prep your weapons, you will only prove that you are scared of our superior market tactics.

Markhov replies, having only slightly cooled off since his last statement,
"Ambassador, The Imperium has No poverty, and an educational system that would find yours hundreds of years out of date, because it is. There is nothing "Tyrannical" about the Imperial Economy, and I think you will find, should you ever request diplomatic entry to the Imperium, exactly that.
And, for the record Ambassador, when it comes to your nation, the Imperium has nothing to fear. You could not hope to outpace us Industrially, or Militarily."

It would appear that you are wrong on many accounts. you spend 15% of your budget on your military ( that is about on par with North Korea); 17% of your population either dies from war or from drone attacks; and we spend 5% more than you on education.

Not only are you tyrannical, you are genocidal. The people under the Cristo have no intention of fighting you with guns, as we have no need for such barbaric ideas such as war, we will beat you were it counts, in the wallet. Which, considering how war ragged your nation is, shouldn't be too hard.

[Tinfect]

It would appear that you are wrong on many accounts. you spend 15% of your budget on your military ( that is about on par with North Korea); 17% of your population either dies from war or from drone attacks; and we spend 5% more than you on education.

"Ambassador, not only are those statistics entirely false, I honestly have no idea where you are getting them from. If you would like me to provide more accurate statistics, I am fully capable of contacting Overseer Saar for the information."

OOC:
If you've not bothered to read my Signature, or my Factbooks, I don't use Nation Stats, mostly because it is far too much effort to bring them into alignment with the state of the Imperium.

IC:

Not only are you tyrannical, you are genocidal.

"The Imperium, has, in the past, Commited Genocide, yes. This has been admitted to on several occasions, and is one of many reasons why I am attempting to repair our International Image."

The people under the Cristo have no intention of fighting you with guns,

"If you intend to fight us with Sword and Stone, I suggest preparing a white material, and a long pole."

as we have no need for such barbaric ideas such as war,

"One wonders how your nation has managed to survive this long if you refuse to engage in combat."

we will beat you were it counts, in the wallet. Which, considering how war ragged your nation is, shouldn't be too hard.

"Ambassador. A single Eternity II Battleship, costs 1.7 Billion Iron Marks in Resources, and Labour, for its direct construction alone. We are, currently, constructing 37 of these in Shipyards throughout the Imperium. That, cost, immense though it seems, is a pittance to the Imperium. You cannot hope to outpace an Interstellar Empire economically, when your nation is bound to a single world, without the ability to fully exploit it."

[Separatist Peoples]

Markhov replies, having only slightly cooled off since his last statement,
"Ambassador, The Imperium has No poverty, and an educational system that would find yours hundreds of years out of date, because it is. There is nothing "Tyrannical" about the Imperial Economy, and I think you will find, should you ever request diplomatic entry to the Imperium, exactly that.
And, for the record Ambassador, when it comes to your nation, the Imperium has nothing to fear. You could not hope to outpace us Industrially, or Militarily."

It would appear that you are wrong on many accounts. you spend 15% of your budget on your military ( that is about on par with North Korea); 17% of your population either dies from war or from drone attacks; and we spend 5% more than you on education.

Not only are you tyrannical, you are genocidal. The people under the Cristo have no intention of fighting you with guns, as we have no need for such barbaric ideas such as war, we will beat you were it counts, in the wallet. Which, considering how war ragged your nation is, shouldn't be too hard.

"Considering the Imperium is several times the size and power of your nation, the comparative percentages mean little."

Turning to the Inperium's ambassador, Bell continues, "However, if the Imperium is willing to pay, we in the C.D.S.P. are happy to shore your war-tattered *snicker* economy up by providing you with whatever raw material and economic support you'll need to prove your point. At cost, even."

[Republic of the Cristo]

It would appear that you are wrong on many accounts. you spend 15% of your budget on your military ( that is about on par with North Korea); 17% of your population either dies from war or from drone attacks; and we spend 5% more than you on education.

"Ambassador, not only are those statistics entirely false, I honestly have no idea where you are getting them from. If you would like me to provide more accurate statistics, I am fully capable of contacting Overseer Saar for the information."

OOC:
If you've not bothered to read my Signature, or my Factbooks, I don't use Nation Stats, mostly because it is far too much effort to bring them into alignment with the state of the Imperium.

IC:

Not only are you tyrannical, you are genocidal.

"The Imperium, has, in the past, Commited Genocide, yes. This has been admitted to on several occasions, and is one of many reasons why I am attempting to repair our International Image."

The people under the Cristo have no intention of fighting you with guns,

"If you intend to fight us with Sword and Stone, I suggest preparing a white material, and a long pole."

as we have no need for such barbaric ideas such as war,

"One wonders how your nation has managed to survive this long if you refuse to engage in combat."

we will beat you were it counts, in the wallet. Which, considering how war ragged your nation is, shouldn't be too hard.

"Ambassador. A single Eternity II Battleship, costs 1.7 Billion Iron Marks in Resources, and Labour, for its direct construction alone. We are, currently, constructing 37 of these in Shipyards throughout the Imperium. That, cost, immense though it seems, is a pittance to the Imperium. You cannot hope to outpace an Interstellar Empire economically, when your nation is bound to a single world, without the ability to fully exploit it."

Wait, you are not using NS stats? In that case!

You want to talk about international image? When the pope was asked what was his favorite vacation destination was, it was the Republic of the Cristo! We are the only nation to be dubbed " Pretty sweet bruh!" by both North and South Korea.

My sword is pacifism, and my shield is peace. I will bash your brains in with peace after I have severed your head with pacifism!

Refusal to enter war is my 8 gauge shot gun, I am not afraid to use refusal to enter war!

Constructing 37 battleships? Are we compensating for something ! When our nation was first being built, the iron mark was considered for being our national currency... before everyone in the room burst out laughing, realizing that they would be better off using Post WW1 Duestch marks as currency. The only reason why we are on but a single place on a single planet is because we revere this particular piece of land as holy. You can have the rest of the universe for all we care, but you will never lay a finger on us. Your economy is laughable to ours. This being because we learned over one billion years ago the secret to dividing by 0, and our industry literally began tripping on ecstasy. Any army or laser you send towards us will be immedieantly destroyed by our ghost riding president



Even if our entire industry, and agriculture, and super agriculture ( this is beyond your primitive understanding) all burned up; we would still have enough money to last us 9 to the x power of infinity! This being because our President also discovered a national treasure... TWICE!

[Tinfect]

[ Insert Long, Incredibly Annoying Post Here]

OOC:
Oh piss off.
I am not the only person here who does not abide by Nation Statistics, and like them, I have an established Canon for my nation molded by RP. I am not sitting here making shit up, everything I have told you has already been established, and I am not going to pull together random bullshit for the purpose of winning an argument. When you can be bothered to respond to me properly, feel free to come back, until then, piss off.

[Republic of the Cristo]

[ Insert Long, Incredibly Annoying Post Here]

OOC:
Oh piss off.
I am not the only person here who does not abide by Nation Statistics, and like them, I have an established Canon for my nation molded by RP. I am not sitting here making shit up, everything I have told you has already been established, and I am not going to pull together random bullshit for the purpose of winning an argument. When you can be bothered to respond to me properly, feel free to come back, until then, piss off.

And technically, no you did not just sit here and make stuff up... you sat at your fact book and made stuff up. I only us my NS stats because I feel that they at least semi resemble real life consequences of my actions.

Anyways, I already won the argument before we started our funny charade.

[Tinfect]

[Image that I'm sure you think is funny]
And technically, no you did not just sit here and make stuff up... you sat at your fact book and made stuff up. I only us my NS stats because I feel that they at least semi resemble real life consequences of my actions.

OOC:
And I've put a fair bit of thought into just how my nation works, with input from quite a few other people. My National canon is just as valid as yours in the GA. If you can't work with things that have already been established, there is, in fact, a door.

Anyways, I already won the argument before we started our funny charade.

You didn't win shit.

[Republic of the Cristo]

[Image that I'm sure you think is funny]
And technically, no you did not just sit here and make stuff up... you sat at your fact book and made stuff up. I only us my NS stats because I feel that they at least semi resemble real life consequences of my actions.

OOC:
And I've put a fair bit of thought into just how my nation works, with input from quite a few other people. My National canon is just as valid as yours in the GA. If you can't work with things that have already been established, there is, in fact, a door.

Anyways, I already won the argument before we started our funny charade.

You didn't win shit.

This is not an RP thread mind you, you are the first person to bring up your own country.

Secondly, I purposed an alternative that has seen success in rising RL countries and I have disproved evidence provided to the contrary.

[Tinfect]

This is not an RP thread mind you, you are the first person to bring up your own country.

OOC:
Actually, it is.
The GA is an In Character forum.

[Republic of the Cristo]

This is not an RP thread mind you, you are the first person to bring up your own country.

OOC:
Actually, it is.
The GA is an In Character forum.

I stand corrected. But Wallenburg and I were trying to use real life evidence. I beat him in that respect.

[Tinfect]

I stand corrected. But Wallenburg and I were trying to use real life evidence. I beat him in that respect.

OOC:
From what I understand, Wallenburg exists on Earth, as does your nation. It stands to reason that you would both know what Singapore is.

[Caracasus]

Ah, we note that some ambassadors are deciding that removing a minimum wage allows the employee more room to negotiate. Fascinating though that argument is, we feel, when examining every case we can get our hands on, that worker's conditions are significantly worse at the bottom of the socioeconomic pile in nations without some form of minimum wage.

Perhaps the workers decide, with their "ahem" greater negotiating power, to negotiate for fewer wages and rights? Or perhaps negotiation in this context is akin to the negotiation an individual may have with a gangster - for example begging that if said individual pays absolutely all their money then the gangster will allow them to retain the use of their kneecaps.

Negotiation requires a broadly level playing field. This simply does not exist in any meaningful way for the majority of employer/employee relations.

[Republic of the Cristo]

I stand corrected. But Wallenburg and I were trying to use real life evidence. I beat him in that respect.

OOC:
From what I understand, Wallenburg exists on Earth, as does your nation. It stands to reason that you would both know what Singapore is.

We were talking about real life outside of NS. He tried to use Singapore as example were wages could not be negotiated by the working class, and I pointed out to him how this was wrong and the exact opposite was true.

[Tinfect]

We were talking about real life outside of NS. He tried to use Singapore as example were wages could not be negotiated by the working class, and I pointed out to him how this was wrong and the exact opposite was true.

OOC:
Wrong again.
Wallenburg, in that same post, while using quotes ("These Things"), without an OOC/IC tag, confirmed the Imperium to Exist.
Thus, it is quite obvious that his post was IC.
Yours were assumed to be as well.

[Republic of the Cristo]

Ah, we note that some ambassadors are deciding that removing a minimum wage allows the employee more room to negotiate. Fascinating though that argument is, we feel, when examining every case we can get our hands on, that worker's conditions are significantly worse at the bottom of the socioeconomic pile in nations without some form of minimum wage.

Perhaps the workers decide, with their "ahem" greater negotiating power, to negotiate for fewer wages and rights? Or perhaps negotiation in this context is akin to the negotiation an individual may have with a gangster - for example begging that if said individual pays absolutely all their money then the gangster will allow them to retain the use of their kneecaps.

Negotiation requires a broadly level playing field. This simply does not exist in any meaningful way for the majority of employer/employee relations.

In third world nations filled with uneducated and unskilled working populous, you are correct. In a first world educated and skilled nation however, you are gravely mistaken.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singapore

Skip down to economy.

[Republic of the Cristo]

We were talking about real life outside of NS. He tried to use Singapore as example were wages could not be negotiated by the working class, and I pointed out to him how this was wrong and the exact opposite was true.

OOC:
Wrong again.
Wallenburg, in that same post, while using quotes ("These Things"), without an OOC/IC tag, confirmed the Imperium to Exist.
Thus, it is quite obvious that his post was IC.
Yours were assumed to be as well.

... Then in that case everything I said about dividing by zero and Nicholas Cage are true.

Any questions ?

[Tinfect]

... Then in that case everything I said about dividing by zero and Nicholas Cage are true.
Any questions ?

OOC:
Then add it to your factbooks and use it as the canon for your nation.

[Republic of the Cristo]

... Then in that case everything I said about dividing by zero and Nicholas Cage are true.
Any questions ?

OOC:
Then add it to your factbooks and use it as the canon for your nation.

IC: * Nicholas Cage punches through your computer thus breaking the third wall* " I banned fact books, and Donald Trump!"

Seriously though. The lack of such restrictive wage laws has seriously benefited the Republic of the Cristo, and it is only a 2 decade old country with a rapidly growing economy. I feel that based upon the evidence, it would be most beneficial to the people of the universe that this reasonable wage act be voted down.

[Tinfect]

IC: * Nicholas Cage punches through your computer thus breaking the third wall* " I banned fact books, and Donald Trump!"

OOC:
Godmodding.
Can't be done.

Seriously though. The lack of such restrictive wage laws has seriously benefited the Republic of the Cristo, and it is only a 2 decade old country with a rapidly growing economy. I feel that based upon the evidence, it would be most beneficial to the people of the universe that this reasonable wage act be voted down.

IC:
"The Imperium stands as a shining counter-example to your Nation's experience. Again, no poverty due to a simple combination of government assistance, and good wages. We have been doing this for 300 years, and it has worked out quite well for us."

[Republic of the Cristo]

IC: * Nicholas Cage punches through your computer thus breaking the third wall* " I banned fact books, and Donald Trump!"

OOC:
Godmodding.
Can't be done.

Seriously though. The lack of such restrictive wage laws has seriously benefited the Republic of the Cristo, and it is only a 2 decade old country with a rapidly growing economy. I feel that based upon the evidence, it would be most beneficial to the people of the universe that this reasonable wage act be voted down.

IC:
"The Imperium stands as a shining counter-example to your Nation's experience. Again, no poverty due to a simple combination of government assistance, and good wages. We have been doing this for 300 years, and it has worked out quite well for us."

It has taken you centuries to reach this stage, and it took you several genocides and wars to do so. In a mere 20 years, a nation built literally built from the empty steppes of the north Caspian by immigrants and refugees has become the fastest growing economy on Earth. Despite our massive immigrant population of 91%, we maintain one of the lowest poverty rates in the eastern hemisphere, this while all lacking any significant welfare program or minimum wage. Within but a few decades, our standards will be on par with the standards it took you centuries to create... all without minimum wage laws and minimal welfare.

[Tinfect]

It has taken you centuries to reach this stage, and it took you several genocides and wars to do so.

"The Imperium rose from a war that nearly everything that came before on New Harron, and was only able to survive due to the unintentional technological assistance provided by the Archailects. It was over 100 years before we were anywhere near independent as a nation, by then, we had learned that, Space, is quite the hostile place. The leaders of the time chose to annihilate those who would stand in our way. The fact that I stand here today, shows that things have changed."

In a mere 20 years, a nation built literally built from the empty steppes of the north Caspian by immigrants and refugees has become the fastest growing economy on Earth. Despite our massive immigrant population of 91%, we maintain one of the lowest poverty rates in the eastern hemisphere, this while all lacking any significant welfare program or minimum wage. Within but a few decades, our standards will be on par with the standards it took you centuries to create... all without minimum wage laws and minimal welfare.

"Within 20 Years, we had returned our ruined Homeworld to a semblance of Terran life, created Interstellar Colonies, and had begun to construct the Orbital Shipyards which would provide for the Imperium for the several decades they were in service. Had we resorted to Capitalist economic policy, a great number of our people would have died in the food shortages, as those with power hoarded it for themselves, the Shipyards would have been under the control of a system designed for its own gain, rather than for the advancement of the People, and we would have been in no shape to defend our borders for quite some time."

[Caracasus]

Ah, we note that some ambassadors are deciding that removing a minimum wage allows the employee more room to negotiate. Fascinating though that argument is, we feel, when examining every case we can get our hands on, that worker's conditions are significantly worse at the bottom of the socioeconomic pile in nations without some form of minimum wage.

Perhaps the workers decide, with their "ahem" greater negotiating power, to negotiate for fewer wages and rights? Or perhaps negotiation in this context is akin to the negotiation an individual may have with a gangster - for example begging that if said individual pays absolutely all their money then the gangster will allow them to retain the use of their kneecaps.

Negotiation requires a broadly level playing field. This simply does not exist in any meaningful way for the majority of employer/employee relations.

In third world nations filled with uneducated and unskilled working populous, you are correct. In a first world educated and skilled nation however, you are gravely mistaken.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singapore

Skip down to economy.

You are unfortunately mistaken ambassador. You are providing one example of a spectacularly unique economy - a city state with, if we recall correctly, one of the highest levels of import in the world. Singapore also has rather unique relations with its workers' unions, and other factors making this generalization you are attempting weak at best.

We will not criticise you on your incorrect use of terminology such as first world or third world here - though we do suggest you examine these terms a little more closely. They do not mean what you think they mean.

Your argument more or less completely consists of "well one tiny nation has done OK with no minimum wage, as long as you completely ignore multiple other factors that may contribute to this".

[Republic of the Cristo]

In third world nations filled with uneducated and unskilled working populous, you are correct. In a first world educated and skilled nation however, you are gravely mistaken.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singapore

Skip down to economy.

You are unfortunately mistaken ambassador. You are providing one example of a spectacularly unique economy - a city state with, if we recall correctly, one of the highest levels of import in the world. Singapore also has rather unique relations with its workers' unions, and other factors making this generalization you are attempting weak at best.

We will not criticise you on your incorrect use of terminology such as first world or third world here - though we do suggest you examine these terms a little more closely. They do not mean what you think they mean.

Your argument more or less completely consists of "well one tiny nation has done OK with no minimum wage, as long as you completely ignore multiple other factors that may contribute to this".

It seems that you need to look up what first world and third world actually mean
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_World skip to present meaning


Perhaps you would like some more example of success:

American: Despite having one of the lowest minimum wages in the first world, maintains the largest economy in the world and is tied with the highest standard of living for working class people in the western hemisphere with Canada.

Japan: Having a minimum wage of 6.30$ hour, and they possess one of the highest standards of living and fastest growing economy in the world

Taiwan: Having a minimum wage of 3.50$, they posses similar conditions to Japan

South Korea: Having a minimum wage of 4.57$, they posses similar conditions to Japan


Tell me, how is this rare again?

[Republic of the Cristo]

It has taken you centuries to reach this stage, and it took you several genocides and wars to do so.

"The Imperium rose from a war that nearly everything that came before on New Harron, and was only able to survive due to the unintentional technological assistance provided by the Archailects. It was over 100 years before we were anywhere near independent as a nation, by then, we had learned that, Space, is quite the hostile place. The leaders of the time chose to annihilate those who would stand in our way. The fact that I stand here today, shows that things have changed."

In a mere 20 years, a nation built literally built from the empty steppes of the north Caspian by immigrants and refugees has become the fastest growing economy on Earth. Despite our massive immigrant population of 91%, we maintain one of the lowest poverty rates in the eastern hemisphere, this while all lacking any significant welfare program or minimum wage. Within but a few decades, our standards will be on par with the standards it took you centuries to create... all without minimum wage laws and minimal welfare.

"Within 20 Years, we had returned our ruined Homeworld to a semblance of Terran life, created Interstellar Colonies, and had begun to construct the Orbital Shipyards which would provide for the Imperium for the several decades they were in service. Had we resorted to Capitalist economic policy, a great number of our people would have died in the food shortages, as those with power hoarded it for themselves, the Shipyards would have been under the control of a system designed for its own gain, rather than for the advancement of the People, and we would have been in no shape to defend our borders for quite some time."

You my friend had something to build upon. you had a massive willing population. You had experience prior. You had the technology already developed. You already had the command structure developed.

When I say we literally started from nothing, I mean it was just 200 hundred Christians who decided to set up camp in one of the most barren and inhospitable places in the world with minimal resources.

From nothing we are creating a paradise... all with little to no government intervention.

[Tinfect]

Perhaps you would like some more example of success:
American: Despite having one of the lowest minimum wages in the first world, maintains the largest economy in the world and is tied with the highest standard of living for working class people in the western hemisphere with Canada.

OOC:
Yeah, great idea. Use the United States as an example of success. Surely building as strong case here.
I take it you do not come from a lower-class family?

Japan: Having a minimum wage of 6.30$ hour, and they possess one of the highest standards of living and fastest growing economy in the world

Partially because Japan is also one of the world-leaders in Technology.

Taiwan: Having a minimum wage of 3.50$, they posses similar conditions to Japan

Taiwanese Sweat-Shop Labour!
That's like using China as an example of Success. It simply does not work when you look at more than just numbers.

----

You my friend had something to build upon. you had a massive willing population. You had experience prior. You had the technology already developed. You already had the command structure developed.

IC:
"We had a handful of ships left over from the War, and food supplies for about 3 years with no way to sufficiently replenish them, and there were less than 2 Billion people surviving on New-Harron at the time."

When I say we literally started from nothing, I mean it was just 200 hundred Christians who decided to set up camp in one of the most barren and inhospitable places in the world with minimal resources.

"First of all, one wonders how you managed to create a sustainable population in, if you will excuse the expression, in the middle of nowhere, with few resources? You would have been conquered the moment you declared Independence with such a small group. Perhaps starting from the official founding of your nation would be best.

From the documents you have provided to the World Assembly;

he Radical Christians petitioned the Putin government to secede to them the area directly north o the Caspian sea, in exchange for several billion dollars and a promise of favorable trade deals once they had been set up. The government agreed and on February 16, 2016, The Republic of the Cristo was born.

Your nation, was founded on Capitalist Principles, with a Theocratic ideology, locked into a position where it was either fulfill those goals, or be crushed by this "Russian Federation". So, in other words, you were exactly like every other crumbling nation on Earth at the time. If you wish to start from a more true beginning;

90% of the Radical Christian members moved to the Republic of the Cristo. This put their population to around 400,000 to begin with. It was debated amongst the populous, political leaders, and religious leaders as to what kind of government should be installed. Obviously the nation would be a theocracy, but how to implement it. After six months of debate, it was agreed that a council would be set up to act as the legislative and executive body of the nation. This council would be made up of a single representative from every government department. They would all share in a single vote and no one member would be an executive higher than another. In order for any vote to pass, a 2/3 majority must be found. A citizen may send a issue for the Council to vote on if they receive 10,000 signatures. In the event of receiving 60,000 signatures, that issue will become a public referendum.

You also started with quite a population, nearly a half-million individual. Not nearly the 200 you originally stated. The fact that your government is theocratic condemns itself, so I will say little on that subject. However, If you wish to discuss Tyranny, I suggest you start with your own Nation's making of all non-christians into second-class citizens. Or, rather, Non-Citizens.

From nothing we are creating a paradise...

"I would not call a Theocracy a Paradise. Much less one that allows Foreign Nations, and Corporate Interests to supercede the rights of its people.

all with little to no government intervention.

So, a weak central government then. Nothing to be proud of."