Confederate Emblems to be Removed Nationwide.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

Well, you see Dya, I know it's not a scholarly work, but I like to consider Harry Potter the most realistic depiction of life in the UK, because it gives me warm and fuzzy feelings.

The conversation about slavery getting outlawed in the Confederacy reminded me of a book series that portrayed a scenario related to the conversation. I thought I was dumb

It was a good series. I don't see your comment as being dumb, or even off-topic in comparison to some conversations in this thread.

[Internationalist Bastard]

The conversation about slavery getting outlawed in the Confederacy reminded me of a book series that portrayed a scenario related to the conversation. I thought I was dumb

It was a good series. I don't see your comment as being dumb, or even off-topic in comparison to some conversations in this thread.

But people still assume everything I say is idiotic, so whatever.

[USS Monitor]

Tear down those racist flags. The KKK, Moon Man and the Confederate apologists are gonna be pissed but I don't care. People deserve to feel safe in their own state so the racist flags need to come down.

They aren't racist. Heritage not hate.

Heritage can be racist.

[USS Monitor]

good ol' fashion warfighting
it wasn't until ww1 that we figured death in battle wasn't all it was cracked up to be
and hey, to fight and die in wars before that particular one was a grand affair, full of pomp and circumstance.

If I'm gonna get killed horribly, it'd be nice to have a spiffy uniform.

Civil War uniforms are pretty snazzy.

[USS Monitor]

Most Southernes joined the Confederacy were probably motivated by the fear that the federal army would slaughter them

Something they wouldn't have to worry about if there wasn't widespread popular support for the Confederacy.

Of course some of them were motivated by fear that the Confederate authorities would slaughter them if they didn't come when they were drafted, but that doesn't excuse the people who volunteered.

[USS Monitor]

I'm sorry, they never offered it a different economy?
Tensions over slavery were through the roof before secession and the war, and you're trying to tell me that the Union didn't want the South to pursue a different economy?

The Union and federal government never invested in industry to help the South to search a different source of money making. Yes, it was irresponsible from the Union that only proteged the capital and New England.

What preferential treatment did the federal government give New England? The 19th century US didn't have a centrally-planned economy, and the industrialization of New England wasn't some federal project. It was a result of extensive private investment and a guy with a really good memory memorizing the design of a British textile mill and bringing that knowledge to Massachusetts.

And how come the Mid-Atlantic and Midwest could function without slavery if the federal government was only supporting DC and New England?

[Laerod]

I'm just presenting an interesting fact, adding to the conversation per say. It's just a fact. If your going to talk about the Confederate flag, you'd better know which flag is which.

Funny story: The variation of your post "adding" an "interesting fact" has been made over and over and over again. So yeah, people are going to react rather snippy when someone waltzes into a 200 page thread and pretends like no one was aware of the variation among traitor banners.

[Grave_n_idle]

They aren't racist. Heritage not hate.

Heritage can be racist.

Indeed. The whole 'heritage not hate' shtick is irrelevant (not to mention, usually untrue in my experience) - because the heritage of the Confederacy was owning people, and starting a war over the privilege of owning people.

[Alien Space Bats]

With Pleasure. Amendment IX, which protects the unnamed rights of the people, is indeed significant. In context with the crisis of 1861, secession, or the act of leaving the UNION, is arguably included in this amendment.

Let me get this straight.

They seceded because the Federal government was denying them the right to secede.

<pause>

How does that make any kind of fucking sense at all?

EDIT: Ninja'ed, but stil... WTF?!?!?

[Alien Space Bats]

My understanding is that the Civil War was over States Rights, but the specific "rights violation" that pushed it was federal abolition of slavery. I mean, it wasn't the first time (or last) that South Carolina threatens to succeed.

So the Confederacy seceded in late 1860 and early 1861 because the Federal government partially abolished slavery in 1862, and then finally got rid of it everywhere in 1868.

<pause>

Would you by chance have an alternate explanation, perchance?

Maybe one that doesn't violate causality?

[Alien Space Bats]

There was a an element of states rights due to Lincoln not even being on the ballots in teh South(which means a whole region of the country didn't vote for someone and he still won) but yeah slavery was the tipping point for the South.

Wait a minute: Are you saying that it's unconstitutional for someone to be elected President if he's not on the ballot in all fifty States?

<pause>

So does that mean LBJ's election was illegal because he wasn't on the ballot in Alabama in 1964? Or that Truman's election in 1948 was illegal for the same reason?

<pause>

Obviously, that's a bullshit reason for secession, for two reasons:

1. It would mean that any State has the power the veto the election of any candidate they wish, or even to completely remove an entire political Party from participation in Presidential politics, all by employing the simple expedient of removing said candidate and/or Party from the ballot. That's more than a little ridiculous, especially as the antebellum South routinely refused to allow Republicans to compete for their electoral votes in ANY election (in 1860, Lincoln and the Republicans were not allowed on the ballot in Alabama, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, Louisiana, Mississippi, North Carolina, and Texas [South Carolina didn't hold Presidential elections before 1868; their legislature simply chose their State's Electors directly without consulting with the State's registered voters at all]; four years earlier, John C. Fremont and the Republicans had been denied a place on the ballot in all these same (nine) States, as well as Kentucky, Missouri, and Virginia]); does that mean they had the right to overrule the rest of the country when it came time to elect a President, effectively forcing the rest of the country to accept a President of the SOUTH'S choosing, however much THEIR wishes might vary from those of their Southern cousins?!?
   
   
2. Lincoln's election was not the first time in the course of American history that a President won election in spite of being not on the ballot in every State (nor, as you can see from the examples of Truman in 1948 and LBJ on 1964, neither was it the last): John Quincy Adams won in 1824 in spite of not being on the ballot in either Kentucky or North Carolina; yet there was no talk on the part of either the legislators or citizens of either State of seceding from the Union (or of Adams' election being GROUNDS for secession if either State had been so inclined).

That said, you ARE closer to the mark here than most people: In essence, the South seceded on the grounds that it didn't like the outcome of a General Election; for all intents and purposes, it was REALLY attempting to do nothing more (and nothing less) than nullify a Federal election.

[Alien Space Bats]

The Confederacy would also abolish slavery if it had survived the Civil War.

And your proof for this is...?

[Vassenor]

no because slavery is a small part of those countries history whereas slavery is the entirely of confederate history and the main driver of its existence making such comparisons inherently useless

The Confederacy would also abolish slavery if it had survived the Civil War. Also, not all Confederates were in favour of slavery.

So it would abolish the very institution it was founded to protect?

[Alien Space Bats]

I know it's not a scholarly work, but I liketo consider the Southern Victory series by Turtledove the most realistic scenario put forward, I'd sugesst looking into that eveyone.

So a science fiction writer puts out a novel, and we're supposed to accept that as good reason why something "would have" happened.

I'm not buying it.

Besides, in Turtledove's alternate universe, doesn't the Confederacy essentially go down the same path as Nazi Germany and commit genocide against its black population? If THAT'S what the Confederate flag is supposed to represent, how is that any better than claiming that it stands for slavery?

[Alien Space Bats]

Most Southernes joined the Confederacy were probably motivated by the fear that the federal army would slaughter them

Surely you can show us some basis for most Southerners believing this would happen.

<pause>

Well?

[Freakoland]

Most Southernes joined the Confederacy were probably motivated by the fear that the federal army would slaughter them

Surely you can show us some basis for most Southerners believing this would happen.

<pause>

Well?

By what basis are you describing?

[Salandriagado]

Any source that supports your claim. You have given me none.

I have too. The page that I gave explicitly said that the "Stars and Bars" was the official Confederate flag.

The Stars and Bars was, for a time, the official Confederate national flag (as were a couple of other flags at various points). This is the stars and bars:



The battle flag, however, was never the official national flag (though it was used as both a battle flag and naval ensign, and did appear in the canton of those aforementioned other national flags). This is the battle flag:

[Cannot think of a name]

I have too. The page that I gave explicitly said that the "Stars and Bars" was the official Confederate flag.

The Stars and Bars was, for a time, the official Confederate national flag (as were a couple of other flags at various points). This is the stars and bars:



The battle flag, however, was never the official national flag (though it was used as both a battle flag and naval ensign, and did appear in the canton of those aforementioned other national flags). This is the battle flag:

For the love of fuck, you people aren't editing a goddamn wikipedia page.

[Novus America]

I have too. The page that I gave explicitly said that the "Stars and Bars" was the official Confederate flag.

The Stars and Bars was, for a time, the official Confederate national flag (as were a couple of other flags at various points). This is the stars and bars:



The battle flag, however, was never the official national flag (though it was used as both a battle flag and naval ensign, and did appear in the canton of those aforementioned other national flags). This is the battle flag:

That is the navy jack, maybe as the blue is lighter. It was NEVER used as a naval ensign. It was the second naval jack.

(jacks go in the front of a ship in port. Ensigns in the back or on the mast underway)

The battle flag was square. The rectangular variant, (with dark blue) although usually in a different ratio, more square, was used but infrequently with no official recognition. That rectangular battle flag became popular after the war. So it really represents the "Lost Cause" lies, and the anti-civil rights movement.

[Salandriagado]

The Stars and Bars was, for a time, the official Confederate national flag (as were a couple of other flags at various points). This is the stars and bars:



The battle flag, however, was never the official national flag (though it was used as both a battle flag and naval ensign, and did appear in the canton of those aforementioned other national flags). This is the battle flag:

That is the navy jack, maybe as the blue is lighter. The battle flag was square. The rectangular variant, (with dark blue) although usually in a different ratio, more square, was used but infrequently with no official recognition. That rectangular battle flag became popular after the war. So it really represents the "Lost Cause" lies, and the anti-civil rights movement.

I apologise, you're entirely correct, I failed at copy/pasting links. That's a flag that's basically only ever been used by revisionist/racist bullshit.

[Novus America]

That is the navy jack, maybe as the blue is lighter. The battle flag was square. The rectangular variant, (with dark blue) although usually in a different ratio, more square, was used but infrequently with no official recognition. That rectangular battle flag became popular after the war. So it really represents the "Lost Cause" lies, and the anti-civil rights movement.

I apologise, you're entirely correct, I failed at copy/pasting links. That's a flag that's basically only ever been used by revisionist/racist bullshit.

Yep. So it represents lies more than real history or "heritage". And of course the openly racist anti-civil rights movement.

Although using the actual CSA flag, even while more correct is not really any better as the CSA founding documents show.

[Laerod]

I apologise, you're entirely correct, I failed at copy/pasting links. That's a flag that's basically only ever been used by revisionist/racist bullshit.

Yep. So it represents lies more than real history or "heritage". And of course the openly racist anti-civil rights movement.

Although using the actual CSA flag, even while more correct is not really any better as the CSA founding documents show.

Or the description given by the guy that designed it, seeing as the big white part was meant to represent white supremacy.

[SMS Bayern]

Yep. So it represents lies more than real history or "heritage". And of course the openly racist anti-civil rights movement.

Although using the actual CSA flag, even while more correct is not really any better as the CSA founding documents show.

Or the description given by the guy that designed it, seeing as the big white part was meant to represent white supremacy.

Hilarious in Hindsight since they were beaten.

[The Cobalt Sky]

Or the description given by the guy that designed it, seeing as the big white part was meant to represent white supremacy.

Hilarious in Hindsight since they were beaten.

Have you met USS Monitor yet?

http://www.nationstates.net/nation=uss_monitor

[The Empire of Pretantia]

Or the description given by the guy that designed it, seeing as the big white part was meant to represent white supremacy.

Hilarious in Hindsight since they were beaten.

By other white people.