Transgender kids

[Grenartia]

No age. Kids are going to struggle a lot if they don't feel like they're in the right body. That's not fair to them. Do you want to be the one to tell a 12 year old transgender kid "Well, I know you want to do the reassignment surgery, because things feel awful for you know, but you just have to wait until you're 15."?

Should somebody be allowed to get a tattoo at 2 years old? Should they be able to change their gender at 2? A two year old should have no right to decide such a thing.
Also, everybody seems to neglect something called expense.....
You know, like the fact that maybe parents would have to pay for a 12 year old changing their gender? The process is an expensive one. If you're earning 15,000 $ a year, there is no way you could pay for both living expenses and what could just be a whim from a 12 year old.
This whole debate is based off of the idea that 1. a tween is able to understand the issue, and 2. that the child is not just having a whim.
People are acting as though a 12 year old knows this sort of thing.
Nobody who can't post on NSG should be abel to change genders, nobody who can't get a tattoo should be able to change genders.

Gender reassignment surgery shouldn't be allowed at all. But as long as it is, it shouldn't be allowed until the age of consent.

Exactly how I feel. Spend money on counseling instead of spending it on hormones and surgery. I'm glad that a lot of people actually care about and want to help transgender people but counseling at least has a chance to actually help them.

Because I've already fucking addressed it once.

[Arana]

Exactly how I feel. Spend money on counseling instead of spending it on hormones and surgery. I'm glad that a lot of people actually care about and want to help transgender people but counseling at least has a chance to actually help them.

Is that in your expert opinion as a trained psychologist experienced with working with people experiencing gender dysphoria?

No?

Then maybe you should leave the practice of psychology to the psychologists, who frequently recommend sex reassignment therapy as the preferred course of treatment.

Is that your opinion as a trained psychologist? If not, maybe you shouldn't call others out for not being experts. If so, congratulations on your achievement.

[Quintium]

Is that in your expert opinion as a trained psychologist experienced with working with people experiencing gender dysphoria?

No?

Then maybe you should leave the practice of psychology to the psychologists, who frequently recommend sex reassignment therapy as the preferred course of treatment.

Psychologists aren't always right. They came up with hysteria, were a driving force behind eugenics (which I find sensible, but most people here seem to find abhorrent), and came up with things like psycho-analysis and dream patterns.

[United Marxist Nations]

As long as a licensed specialist oversees everything, I'd be all for minors getting hormone therapy. Surgery only if multiple specialists agree (and, of course, informed consent of the patient; if a minor, the parents shouldn't be in the ultimate position), in case of a misdiagnosis. I'm kind of skeptical on whether you can tell too much about a person's gender-identity before puberty, so I would feel more comfortable if there was waiting until such a point.

[Devvo Mate]

were a driving force behind eugenics (which I find sensible, but most people here seem to find abhorrent)

If only someone had sterilised your parents

[Crezilivion]

Exactly how I feel. Spend money on counseling instead of spending it on hormones and surgery. I'm glad that a lot of people actually care about and want to help transgender people but counseling at least has a chance to actually help them.

Is that in your expert opinion as a trained psychologist experienced with working with people experiencing gender dysphoria?

No?

Then maybe you should leave the practice of psychology to the psychologists, who frequently recommend sex reassignment therapy as the preferred course of treatment.

Let me fix that.
http://m.cnsnews.com/news/article/micha ... sex-change

[Grenartia]

Is that in your expert opinion as a trained psychologist experienced with working with people experiencing gender dysphoria?

No?

Then maybe you should leave the practice of psychology to the psychologists, who frequently recommend sex reassignment therapy as the preferred course of treatment.

Is that your opinion as a trained psychologist? If not, maybe you shouldn't call others out for not being experts. If so, congratulations on your achievement.

Agreeing with the experts, when a course of action they often recommend falls in their field of study, is not a fallacy.

You don't go around telling people who say they should clean their cuts and scrapes to avoid infection that they shouldn't say that because they're not doctors, even though that's the exact course of action a doctor would recommend, do you?

[MERIZoC]

Is that in your expert opinion as a trained psychologist experienced with working with people experiencing gender dysphoria?

No?

Then maybe you should leave the practice of psychology to the psychologists, who frequently recommend sex reassignment therapy as the preferred course of treatment.

Let me fix that.
http://m.cnsnews.com/news/article/micha ... sex-change

Amazing. CNS. Truly, a god among sources.

[Arana]

Is that your opinion as a trained psychologist? If not, maybe you shouldn't call others out for not being experts. If so, congratulations on your achievement.

Agreeing with the experts, when a course of action they often recommend falls in their field of study, is not a fallacy.

You don't go around telling people who say they should clean their cuts and scrapes to avoid infection that they shouldn't say that because they're not doctors, even though that's the exact course of action a doctor would recommend, do you?

Of course not. But assuming somebody is wrong or has an invalid opinion because they aren't a professional, in this case, leaving psychology to professional psychologists, is not a valid assumption.

[Crezilivion]

Let me fix that.
http://m.cnsnews.com/news/article/micha ... sex-change

Amazing. CNS. Truly, a god among sources.

At least it's not Fox?

[Grenartia]

Is that in your expert opinion as a trained psychologist experienced with working with people experiencing gender dysphoria?

No?

Then maybe you should leave the practice of psychology to the psychologists, who frequently recommend sex reassignment therapy as the preferred course of treatment.

Psychologists aren't always right. They came up with hysteria, were a driving force behind eugenics (which I find sensible, but most people here seem to find abhorrent), and came up with things like psycho-analysis and dream patterns.

There's this thing called science, that they follow. Science is the process of improving knowledge. I highly fucking doubt any science would come along that showed that transition is in any way comparable to hysteria or eugenics, because transition has been proven to objectively IMPROVE patients' quality of life, instead of degrading it. And any future alternative theory would have to explain that improvement, and offer a way to beat it. That's how science works. Also, I like how you totally ignored my post kicking your bullshit up and down the street, as if it didn't happen.

[Grenartia]

were a driving force behind eugenics (which I find sensible, but most people here seem to find abhorrent)

If only someone had sterilised your parents

#rekt

[Farnhamia]

were a driving force behind eugenics (which I find sensible, but most people here seem to find abhorrent)

If only someone had sterilised your parents

*** Warned for trolling ***

[Grenartia]

Is that in your expert opinion as a trained psychologist experienced with working with people experiencing gender dysphoria?

No?

Then maybe you should leave the practice of psychology to the psychologists, who frequently recommend sex reassignment therapy as the preferred course of treatment.

Let me fix that.
http://m.cnsnews.com/news/article/micha ... sex-change

I honestly doubt that's a reliable source. Especially when compared against the APA: http://www.apa.org/topics/lgbt/transgender.aspx

[Herskerstad]

You know, I am going to ask my parents and people from their generation if people living in wrong genders were as frequent or even a visible problem at all. See if I can even find any who went through said time and felt since an early age they were in the wrong gender and how that went. If it was more frequent than I thought it was, then that'd be certainly something to take into consideration. My own view on the issue stands primarily shaped around some stats and a few transgendered people I know, all of whom's situationis far less than ideal which I know hardly stands as any significant qualifier.

I feel that the danger is that kids are malleable and can easily make certain big choices based on portrayal and marketing rather than profound inner changes. Given the amount of depression and suicide rates associated with such and adding it up with blocking the natural functions of the physical body with hormone blockers or even altering it with estrogen/testostorone which, at least according to my one transitioning friend, is much more destabilizing than stabilizing as an experience, would be very, very high bets to make given the suicide rates associated with transitioning individuals. Which would be interesting to compare with suicide rates of people who did not even have the option of transitioning in the previous generation if there even exists such data. I think whatever comes out on top as the least risky approach to have merits to consider.

Also a question for those who may have better data than what I am going for atm in the Williams Institute. Why is the amount of male to female transitioning seeming significantly higher than female to male? Also, the suicide risk seems on the surface of the stats to while still high, seems to be half the issue for females to male as compared to male to female. While fairly thorough the paper does not have a risk matrix as much as it has a thorough collection of data so I'd like some opinions on why that is so. Is it better biological compatibility with the changes, something social or a mix?

[Russels Orbiting Teapot]

Of course not. But assuming somebody is wrong or has an invalid opinion because they aren't a professional, in this case, leaving psychology to professional psychologists, is not a valid assumption.

Why not?

Maybe if they had evidence to present, but they haven't presented any or indicated that they have any.

It seems very likely that it's just an opinion based on ignorance and prejudice.

[Russels Orbiting Teapot]

You know, I am going to ask my parents and people from their generation if people living in wrong genders were as frequent or even a visible problem at all. See if I can even find any who went through said time and felt since an early age they were in the wrong gender and how that went. If it was more frequent than I thought it was, then that'd be certainly something to take into consideration. My own view on the issue stands primarily shaped around some stats and a few transgendered people I know, all of whom's situationis far less than ideal which I know hardly stands as any significant qualifier.

The fact that being a known 'queer' by any means often got people brutally killed in their era might have something to do with people not talking about it.

[Arana]

Of course not. But assuming somebody is wrong or has an invalid opinion because they aren't a professional, in this case, leaving psychology to professional psychologists, is not a valid assumption.

Why not?

Maybe if they had evidence to present, but they haven't presented any or indicated that they have any.

It seems very likely that it's just an opinion based on ignorance and prejudice.

I believe the opinion expressed was that good enough counselling or therapy would be sufficient, correct? If so, I have to say that it would certainly help, if not solve, the issue. Personally, I think it should be enough to last until the child in question was at the very least going through puberty. At that young age, with that support, I can't imagine suicide being all that likely, and it allows time for them to make sure they actually identify as the gender they're trying to become.

Just my opinion.

[Russels Orbiting Teapot]

I believe the opinion expressed was that good enough counselling or therapy would be sufficient, correct? If so, I have to say that it would certainly help, if not solve, the issue. Personally, I think it should be enough to last until the child in question was at the very least going through puberty. At that young age, with that support, I can't imagine suicide being all that likely, and it allows time for them to make sure they actually identify as the gender they're trying to become.

Just my opinion.

Again, the entire point is being missed.

The question is whether kids about to go through puberty who may be transexual should be (able to be) put on hormone blockers to delay the onset of that puberty.

[Grenartia]

1. You know, I am going to ask my parents and people from their generation if people living in wrong genders were as frequent or even a visible problem at all. See if I can even find any who went through said time and felt since an early age they were in the wrong gender and how that went. If it was more frequent than I thought it was, then that'd be certainly something to take into consideration. My own view on the issue stands primarily shaped around some stats and a few transgendered people I know, all of whom's situationis far less than ideal which I know hardly stands as any significant qualifier.

I feel that the danger is that kids are malleable and can easily make certain big choices based on portrayal and marketing rather than profound inner changes. Given the amount of depression and suicide rates associated with such and adding it up with blocking the natural functions of the physical body with hormone blockers or even altering it with estrogen/testostorone which, at least according to my one transitioning friend, is much more destabilizing than stabilizing as an experience, would be very, very high bets to make given the suicide rates associated with transitioning individuals. 2. Which would be interesting to compare with suicide rates of people who did not even have the option of transitioning in the previous generation if there even exists such data. I think whatever comes out on top as the least risky approach to have merits to consider.

Also a question for those who may have better data than what I am going for atm in the Williams Institute. 3. Why is the amount of male to female transitioning seeming significantly higher than female to male? 4. Also, the suicide risk seems on the surface of the stats to while still high, seems to be half the issue for females to male as compared to male to female. 5. While fairly thorough the paper does not have a risk matrix as much as it has a thorough collection of data so I'd like some opinions on why that is so. Is it better biological compatibility with the changes, something social or a mix?

1. The main problem you'd have there is that people are still a product of their times. Even if they did have feelings of dysphoria, you might have a hard time getting them to admit it to you. I mean, fuck, even with today's generation, you'd have a hard time. Hell, I'd say there's a good chance of people from previous generations mostly not even being able to admit it to themselves, much less other people.

2. Something tells me actual psychologists have already done that and figured out that transition is the right way to go. Y'know, because that's their job, and they're scientists, and know how to account for things like what I mentioned above, and higher suicide rates among people who couldn't transition back in the day meaning there's fewer people around today from that generation who have dysphoria (and will admit it) compared to today's generation, etc.

3. Maybe a combination of reduced visibility for FTMs, combined with a highly rigid set of expectations for vagina-owners that discourages 'manly' things (which certainly would influence identity), even compared to the opposite set of expectations for penis-owners.

4. I'd attribute that to both reduced visibility for transmen, and a focus on "MEN IN DRESSES TRYING TO DECEIVE YOU, THE MANLY MAN/USE THE BATHROOM TO PERVE ON YOUR GIRLFRIEND/WIFE/DAUGHTER", etc.

5. I must admit, I'm totally lost with what you're trying to say there.

[Herskerstad]

You know, I am going to ask my parents and people from their generation if people living in wrong genders were as frequent or even a visible problem at all. See if I can even find any who went through said time and felt since an early age they were in the wrong gender and how that went. If it was more frequent than I thought it was, then that'd be certainly something to take into consideration. My own view on the issue stands primarily shaped around some stats and a few transgendered people I know, all of whom's situationis far less than ideal which I know hardly stands as any significant qualifier.

The fact that being a known 'queer' by any means often got people brutally killed in their era might have something to do with people not talking about it.

Yes, and I would like to see if there is any data on people who repressed their sexuality and their suicide rates compared to those that were openly 'queer' in whichever shape, form or fashion it went.

Ultimately, the dream statistic to find would be one that lists the average 'cis' individual and their suicide risk, with the discriminated 'queer' of all the colors of the rainbow, and the much less discriminated 'queer' again of all colors of the rainbow, and those who would identify as queer with all the shades, but actively for whatever reason seem to suppress such. If the latter would be lower than the two coming before it, then that would be eye-opening, but since I don't know, I am asking others who might have looked into perhaps more detail databases than the one institute I found which while thorough, did not align the following comparatively.

[Russels Orbiting Teapot]

Yes, and I would like to see if there is any data on people who repressed their sexuality and their suicide rates compared to those that were openly 'queer' in whichever shape, form or fashion it went.

Ultimately, the dream statistic to find would be one that lists the average 'cis' individual and their suicide risk, with the discriminated 'queer' of all the colors of the rainbow, and the much less discriminated 'queer' again of all colors of the rainbow, and those who would identify as queer with all the shades, but actively for whatever reason seem to suppress such. If the latter would be lower than the two coming before it, then that would be eye-opening, but since I don't know, I am asking others who might have looked into perhaps more detail databases than the one institute I found which while thorough, did not align the following comparatively.

My point is that there probably aren't reliable numbers from before the Kinsey report on anything involving sexuality. Because being openly effeminate frequently got you killed.

[Farnhamia]

They shouldn't be allowed to wallow in their own delusions in the first place. They are suffering from delusions not dissimilar to those of people who wake up one morning thinking they're Napoleon. The problem is in their minds, so mutilating their bodies won't do much good. Practically, what they need is cognitive behavioral therapy and possibly some antipsychotics. But in a society where everyone is trying to be totally unique and being oppressed is held up as a virtue, common sense is considered bigotry. What we're dealing with here is an epidemic of delusional ideas, like the female hysteria scares of the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries.

And in the case of children, I think the adults around them have blood on their hands. I read about a middle-aged lesbian couple. They adopted a very young child, and by some sort of miraculous coincidence that child turned out to be 'transgender'. Accompanying the article was a photo, and in that photo I saw a broken, confused, depressed child without a father figure and with two radical feminist 'mothers' who were abusing his confusion for prog cred.

*** Warned for trolling ***

[Arana]

I believe the opinion expressed was that good enough counselling or therapy would be sufficient, correct? If so, I have to say that it would certainly help, if not solve, the issue. Personally, I think it should be enough to last until the child in question was at the very least going through puberty. At that young age, with that support, I can't imagine suicide being all that likely, and it allows time for them to make sure they actually identify as the gender they're trying to become.

Just my opinion.

Again, the entire point is being missed.

The question is whether kids about to go through puberty who may be transexual should be (able to be) put on hormone blockers to delay the onset of that puberty.

Oh, I get the point. I was just responding to an argument somebody made that irritated me.

Also, it's not really just hormone blockers. That's the topic, yes, but allowing that would also allow actual surgery, at least the way this is written. And I still think it would be inappropriate to do before puberty.

[Russels Orbiting Teapot]

Also, it's not really just hormone blockers. That's the topic, yes, but allowing that would also allow actual surgery, at least the way this is written. And I still think it would be inappropriate to do before puberty.

The way what is written?