Natural Born Citizen

[NERVUN]

If the intention is to prevent anyone with loyalties to a foreign country becoming president, the implementation is lacking.

The US allows dual citizenship. Providing they were natural-born citizens of the US, an American could openly swear loyalty to a foreign country (by becoming a citizen of that country) and this clause of the Constitution wouldn't disqualify them from later becoming President.

Actually, no it doesn't. Technically US law is silent on dual citizenship, it doesn't forbid it, but it doesn't allow it either.

Therefore I think anyone born to an American citizen mother, regardless of where, even if they were born on foreign soil that's not a military base or an embassy, qualifies to be President of the USA.

Do you agree with this interpretation?

Nope. Being born overseas to a US citizen mother does not make a person automatically a citizen at birth.

Er, yes it does. Assuming the parent lived in the US for the required amount of time beforehand, having a single American parent makes the child automatically a US citizen at birth.

It's why both of my children are Americans, even though they were born in Japan and their mother is Japanese.

[NERVUN]

On topic, it's never been actually tested. Last time this came up it was pointed out that it's never been before the courts and given the lack of standing by anyone but their opponent, it's unlikely to ever do so.

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

Therefore I think anyone born to an American citizen mother, regardless of where, even if they were born on foreign soil that's not a military base or an embassy, qualifies to be President of the USA.

Do you agree with this interpretation?

Nope. Being born overseas to a US citizen mother does not make a person automatically a citizen at birth.

If you mean "should it?" I would say no. BOTH parents perhaps, but having it only the mother is arbitrarily sexist. That would have made sense in previous times when 'who the mother was' could be far more easily proven than 'who the father was'. It's unneccessary now with DNA paternity and maternity tests, and going only by whether the woman giving birth is the mother is less reliable now with surrogacy. It would have been a rationally sexist criterion then, it's not now.

U Sure?

Any one born outside the United States, if one parent is an alien and as long as the other parent is a citizen of the U.S. who lived in the U.S. for at least five years (with military and diplomatic service included in this time)

[Gold Harbor]

Just because you were born someplace doesn't make you a committed defender of liberty. Citizenship should also have to be earned even if you were born here.

[Middle Pacific]

Just because you were born someplace doesn't make you a committed defender of liberty. Citizenship should also have to be earned even if you were born here.

Exactly. When you think about it, individuals who are immigrants have to go through a citizenship test and take a lawfully mandated oath of allegiance to the United States. Individuals who were born US citizens don't have to do either.

[AiliailiA]

If the intention is to prevent anyone with loyalties to a foreign country becoming president, the implementation is lacking.

The US allows dual citizenship. Providing they were natural-born citizens of the US, an American could openly swear loyalty to a foreign country (by becoming a citizen of that country) and this clause of the Constitution wouldn't disqualify them from later becoming President.

Actually, no it doesn't. Technically US law is silent on dual citizenship, it doesn't forbid it, but it doesn't allow it either.

If law is silent on something, it allows it.

If you're saying that a dual citizen (whose US citizenship is by-birth) is not eligible to be President then quote the law or constitutional provision that forbids it.

Nope. Being born overseas to a US citizen mother does not make a person automatically a citizen at birth.

Er, yes it does. Assuming the parent lived in the US for the required amount of time beforehand, having a single American parent makes the child automatically a US citizen at birth.

It's why both of my children are Americans, even though they were born in Japan and their mother is Japanese.

Therefore I think anyone born to an American citizen mother, regardless of where, even if they were born on foreign soil that's not a military base or an embassy, qualifies to be President of the USA.

Do you agree with this interpretation?

Nope. Being born overseas to a US citizen mother does not make a person automatically a citizen at birth.

I said "automatically". And your reply includes "assuming that...". If a period of residency is required, it's not automatic.

It's good to hear that citizenship can follow from either parent, and isn't sexist (as suggested by the OP). On the personal note, are your children also Japanese citizens?

[Liberty and Linguistics]

I don't see the issue with foreign born citizens being President of the United States. Many Prime Ministers in the Anglosphere were not born in the countries that they govern. And, those countries haven't descended into anarchy.

[Middle Pacific]

Actually, no it doesn't. Technically US law is silent on dual citizenship, it doesn't forbid it, but it doesn't allow it either.

If law is silent on something, it allows it.

If you're saying that a dual citizen (whose US citizenship is by-birth) is not eligible to be President then quote the law or constitutional provision that forbids it.

Indeed. It's a constitutional loophole to be addressed alongside allowing US citizens who earned their citizenship to run for the Presidency and Vice Presidency.

[NERVUN]

Actually, no it doesn't. Technically US law is silent on dual citizenship, it doesn't forbid it, but it doesn't allow it either.

If law is silent on something, it allows it.

Ah, no. That's not how that works. If you look at the US State Department's website, it spells it out. The US simply does not forbid dual citizenship, it also doesn't recognize it (Unlike say, the UK). The State Department doesn't recommend it either. It would be more correct to say that the US simply doesn't care at this point in time.

If you're saying that a dual citizen (whose US citizenship is by-birth) is not eligible to be President then quote the law or constitutional provision that forbids it.

I didn't say that, I simply said that the US doesn't allow dual citizenship.

Nope. Being born overseas to a US citizen mother does not make a person automatically a citizen at birth.

Er, yes it does. Assuming the parent lived in the US for the required amount of time beforehand, having a single American parent makes the child automatically a US citizen at birth.

It's why both of my children are Americans, even though they were born in Japan and their mother is Japanese.

Therefore I think anyone born to an American citizen mother, regardless of where, even if they were born on foreign soil that's not a military base or an embassy, qualifies to be President of the USA.

Do you agree with this interpretation?

Nope. Being born overseas to a US citizen mother does not make a person automatically a citizen at birth.

I said "automatically". And your reply includes "assuming that...". If a period of residency is required, it's not automatic.[/QUOTE]
No... no. Again you are mistaken. You have to fit the requirements, just as every OTHER American child (i.e. born within the boundaries of the US) otherwise, yes, citizenship is automatically given at birth. Or to put it another way, I had to provide documentation to the US Embassy in Tokyo for both of my children, but the Consular Report for Birth Abroad of an American Citizen (Their version of a US birth certificate) simply states that the child in question was an American citizen since birth. It's automatically awarded, but I do have a bit higher of a bar to prove it.

It's good to hear that citizenship can follow from either parent, and isn't sexist (as suggested by the OP). On the personal note, are your children also Japanese citizens?

Until age 22, yes. Japan awards citizenship by right of blood and does not allow dual citizenship once past age 22. At that age, a person must declare for one and renounce the other, though I am told that since no one bothers to check Japanese citizens who were born Japanese, many dual citizens just quietly put their other passport in a drawer and don't bother the Justice Ministry with it.

[AiliailiA]

If law is silent on something, it allows it.

If you're saying that a dual citizen (whose US citizenship is by-birth) is not eligible to be President then quote the law or constitutional provision that forbids it.

Indeed. It's a constitutional loophole to be addressed alongside allowing US citizens who earned their citizenship to run for the Presidency and Vice Presidency.

If you mean addressed with a constitutional amendment, I must politely disagree.

And amendment which struck two words from article II section 1 ("natural born") might actually be ratified.
An amendment which did that and ALSO tried to set rules for dual/multiple citizenship would fail.
Just a question of practicality.

And by the way, I see no reason why dual nationals should be prohibited from running. Even if (in the spirit of the existing limitation) that casts doubt on their loyalty to the US, that's for the voters to decide.

I also object to the age requirement, but again, practicality. Trying to amend that and the natural-born requirement at the same time is much less likely to succeed, so pick the one which matters more which imo is the natural-born requirement.

[AiliailiA]

If law is silent on something, it allows it.

Ah, no. That's not how that works. If you look at the US State Department's website, it spells it out. The US simply does not forbid dual citizenship, it also doesn't recognize it (Unlike say, the UK). The State Department doesn't recommend it either. It would be more correct to say that the US simply doesn't care at this point in time.

If you're saying that a dual citizen (whose US citizenship is by-birth) is not eligible to be President then quote the law or constitutional provision that forbids it.

I didn't say that, I simply said that the US doesn't allow dual citizenship.

That's the thread subject! You pretty much admit that you're quibbling on a point of fact irrelevant to the thread subject.

So at this point I'll just concede both points. It clearly matters more to you than it does to me ...

[NERVUN]

Ah, no. That's not how that works. If you look at the US State Department's website, it spells it out. The US simply does not forbid dual citizenship, it also doesn't recognize it (Unlike say, the UK). The State Department doesn't recommend it either. It would be more correct to say that the US simply doesn't care at this point in time.


I didn't say that, I simply said that the US doesn't allow dual citizenship.

That's the thread subject! You pretty much admit that you're quibbling on a point of fact irrelevant to the thread subject.

So at this point I'll just concede both points. It clearly matters more to you than it does to me ...

If you're making factually incorrect statements...

In any case, I've already noted that the law is silent on the issue of children born to US citizen(s) outside of the boundaries of the US and given the standing issue, it's unlikely to be resolved.

[Lydenburg]

If law is silent on something, it allows it.

Ah, no. That's not how that works. If you look at the US State Department's website, it spells it out. The US simply does not forbid dual citizenship, it also doesn't recognize it (Unlike say, the UK). The State Department doesn't recommend it either. It would be more correct to say that the US simply doesn't care at this point in time.

If that's the case, why even bother approving requests for dual citizenship?

[United Russian Soviet States]

A natural born citizen is someone who was an American citizen at birth.

[Romalae]

A natural born citizen is someone who was an American citizen at birth.

Thank you, Noah Webster.

[AiliailiA]

Ah, no. That's not how that works. If you look at the US State Department's website, it spells it out. The US simply does not forbid dual citizenship, it also doesn't recognize it (Unlike say, the UK). The State Department doesn't recommend it either. It would be more correct to say that the US simply doesn't care at this point in time.

If that's the case, why even bother approving requests for dual citizenship?

Well they're not. They simply approve (some) requests for US citizenship and don't require the applicant to renounce a foreign citizenship as a condition. As far as they're concerned it isn't "dual citizenship" just US citizenship ... or not.

Countries which ban dual citizenship wouldn't do that. Renouncing foreign citizenship is a condition of becoming a citizen of that country.

[Middle Pacific]

Indeed. It's a constitutional loophole to be addressed alongside allowing US citizens who earned their citizenship to run for the Presidency and Vice Presidency.

If you mean addressed with a constitutional amendment, I must politely disagree.

And amendment which struck two words from article II section 1 ("natural born") might actually be ratified.
An amendment which did that and ALSO tried to set rules for dual/multiple citizenship would fail.
Just a question of practicality.

And by the way, I see no reason why dual nationals should be prohibited from running. Even if (in the spirit of the existing limitation) that casts doubt on their loyalty to the US, that's for the voters to decide.

I also object to the age requirement, but again, practicality. Trying to amend that and the natural-born requirement at the same time is much less likely to succeed, so pick the one which matters more which imo is the natural-born requirement.

It would in fact be much more politically viable to replace the natural born clause with an exclusive US citizenship requirement. A simple repeal might draw more opposition than a proposed replacement to quell worries about loyalty (which such a proposed replacement would do so entirely, at least from a legal viewpoint).

[Olthar]

The whole requirement should be removed. As long as you are a legal citizen and have lived here for the past several years, you should be able to run for president.

[Infected Mushroom]

Obama was born in Hawaii. No one who vaccinates their children and doesn't think Sandy Hook was staged disputes that. But I am interested in the interpretation of who is qualified to be the President of the United States as per the current constitutional requirement.

It's been established that a person born on an American military base on foreign soil can be President, as McCain was. As far as I can tell, the easiest and most straightforward definition of a natural born citizen is "naturalized at the moment of birth." As in, anyone who is granted American citizenship solely because they were born is a natural born American citizen.

Therefore I think anyone born to an American citizen mother, regardless of where, even if they were born on foreign soil that's not a military base or an embassy, qualifies to be President of the USA.

Do you agree with this interpretation?

EDIT: In support of my argument, military bases are not US soil. Therefore this interpretation already has precedent: http://military.findlaw.com/family-empl ... broad.html

It doesn't matter.

If the US were a real democracy, then anyone should be eligible to run... even a Canadian with no US passport.

[Insaeldor]

I've always felt that as long as you've earned your citizenship you've earned the right to become president. Although I'm pretty partial to the idea that everyone should earn their citizenship in some way to me, like taking a citizenship test your 12th grade year or something.

[Hladgos]

I'm still sad Arnold couldn't run for prez. I would've loved to put that sticker on my bumper. Schwarzenegger/Colbert 2016