by Conglomerate of Iron » Sun Feb 08, 2015 5:36 pm
by Kainesia » Sun Feb 08, 2015 5:50 pm
by Liberty and Linguistics » Sun Feb 08, 2015 5:52 pm
by Skeckoa » Sun Feb 08, 2015 5:56 pm
by Conglomerate of Iron » Sun Feb 08, 2015 5:56 pm
Liberty and Linguistics wrote:I don't see the point in labeling ideologies as "anarcho capitalist" or "anarcho communist." In an anarcho communist society, there is no state to ensure that the profit motive is banned. Likewise, in an anarcho capitalist society, there is no state to ensure that collectives and co-operatives don't exist. Frankly, there's just anarchism.
by Liberty and Linguistics » Sun Feb 08, 2015 5:57 pm
Conglomerate of Iron wrote:Liberty and Linguistics wrote:I don't see the point in labeling ideologies as "anarcho capitalist" or "anarcho communist." In an anarcho communist society, there is no state to ensure that the profit motive is banned. Likewise, in an anarcho capitalist society, there is no state to ensure that collectives and co-operatives don't exist. Frankly, there's just anarchism.
And that is what I think.
You are right on.
by Kainesia » Sun Feb 08, 2015 5:58 pm
Liberty and Linguistics wrote:I don't see the point in labeling ideologies as "anarcho capitalist" or "anarcho communist." In an anarcho communist society, there is no state to ensure that the profit motive is banned. Likewise, in an anarcho capitalist society, there is no state to ensure that collectives and co-operatives don't exist. Frankly, there's just anarchism.
by Conglomerate of Iron » Sun Feb 08, 2015 5:59 pm
Skeckoa wrote:From the point of an anarcho_communist, it really just boils down to the definition of "property" and "force".
Ancoms do not recognize private property. Recognition of such is fundamental to ancapitalism.
Ancaps define "rulers" as political ones (and anarchy as being "without rulers"). Ancoms consider bosses as rulers as well (and anarchism as "freedom from hierarchy"). Chomsky called it "unaccountable tyranny" Ancaps have no philosophical issue with hierarchy as long as its voluntary. Ancoms have a different view of what is "voluntary".
Ancoms can believe in violent revolution in order to achieve anarchy, all though not all do. Ancaps do not because of the respect for private property. This is why left anarchist break windows in protests, its annoying and twists the money making teat of those in power (not all, mind you). Ancaps most likely wouldn't because breaking a 7-11 window is damaging property unfairly.
Ancoms would support state actions that support workers as means to a free end as opposed to the ends in on themselves. Ancaps would usually not support things like government labor laws or minimum wage and consider them government force and a bastardizing of capitalism.
There are generalizations mind you. Feel free to correct me. Be nice.
by Skeckoa » Sun Feb 08, 2015 6:01 pm
I'm just typing out anarcho_communism as I understand it. Not that I disagree with you or anything, this is just what I have encountered from the dozen internet companions and some train station preachers in the Bay Area I talk to.Conglomerate of Iron wrote:Skeckoa wrote:From the point of an anarcho_communist, it really just boils down to the definition of "property" and "force".
Ancoms do not recognize private property. Recognition of such is fundamental to ancapitalism.
Ancaps define "rulers" as political ones (and anarchy as being "without rulers"). Ancoms consider bosses as rulers as well (and anarchism as "freedom from hierarchy"). Chomsky called it "unaccountable tyranny" Ancaps have no philosophical issue with hierarchy as long as its voluntary. Ancoms have a different view of what is "voluntary".
Ancoms can believe in violent revolution in order to achieve anarchy, all though not all do. Ancaps do not because of the respect for private property. This is why left anarchist break windows in protests, its annoying and twists the money making teat of those in power (not all, mind you). Ancaps most likely wouldn't because breaking a 7-11 window is damaging property unfairly.
Ancoms would support state actions that support workers as means to a free end as opposed to the ends in on themselves. Ancaps would usually not support things like government labor laws or minimum wage and consider them government force and a bastardizing of capitalism.
There are generalizations mind you. Feel free to correct me. Be nice.
But see, I visualize a world where, once the state is overthrown, that communes and market communities can peacefully coexist.
When I talk to ancoms in real life, that is typically how they see it as well. On the internet you get a lot of BS from extremists.
by Kainesia » Sun Feb 08, 2015 6:01 pm
Conglomerate of Iron wrote:Skeckoa wrote:From the point of an anarcho_communist, it really just boils down to the definition of "property" and "force".
Ancoms do not recognize private property. Recognition of such is fundamental to ancapitalism.
Ancaps define "rulers" as political ones (and anarchy as being "without rulers"). Ancoms consider bosses as rulers as well (and anarchism as "freedom from hierarchy"). Chomsky called it "unaccountable tyranny" Ancaps have no philosophical issue with hierarchy as long as its voluntary. Ancoms have a different view of what is "voluntary".
Ancoms can believe in violent revolution in order to achieve anarchy, all though not all do. Ancaps do not because of the respect for private property. This is why left anarchist break windows in protests, its annoying and twists the money making teat of those in power (not all, mind you). Ancaps most likely wouldn't because breaking a 7-11 window is damaging property unfairly.
Ancoms would support state actions that support workers as means to a free end as opposed to the ends in on themselves. Ancaps would usually not support things like government labor laws or minimum wage and consider them government force and a bastardizing of capitalism.
There are generalizations mind you. Feel free to correct me. Be nice.
But see, I visualize a world where, once the state is overthrown, that communes and market communities can peacefully coexist.
When I talk to ancoms in real life, that is typically how they see it as well. On the internet you get a lot of BS from extremists.
by Liberty and Linguistics » Sun Feb 08, 2015 6:01 pm
Conglomerate of Iron wrote:Skeckoa wrote:From the point of an anarcho_communist, it really just boils down to the definition of "property" and "force".
Ancoms do not recognize private property. Recognition of such is fundamental to ancapitalism.
Ancaps define "rulers" as political ones (and anarchy as being "without rulers"). Ancoms consider bosses as rulers as well (and anarchism as "freedom from hierarchy"). Chomsky called it "unaccountable tyranny" Ancaps have no philosophical issue with hierarchy as long as its voluntary. Ancoms have a different view of what is "voluntary".
Ancoms can believe in violent revolution in order to achieve anarchy, all though not all do. Ancaps do not because of the respect for private property. This is why left anarchist break windows in protests, its annoying and twists the money making teat of those in power (not all, mind you). Ancaps most likely wouldn't because breaking a 7-11 window is damaging property unfairly.
Ancoms would support state actions that support workers as means to a free end as opposed to the ends in on themselves. Ancaps would usually not support things like government labor laws or minimum wage and consider them government force and a bastardizing of capitalism.
There are generalizations mind you. Feel free to correct me. Be nice.
But see, I visualize a world where, once the state is overthrown, that communes and market communities can peacefully coexist.
When I talk to ancoms in real life, that is typically how they see it as well. On the internet you get a lot of BS from extremists.
by Conglomerate of Iron » Sun Feb 08, 2015 6:02 pm
Kainesia wrote:Liberty and Linguistics wrote:I don't see the point in labeling ideologies as "anarcho capitalist" or "anarcho communist." In an anarcho communist society, there is no state to ensure that the profit motive is banned. Likewise, in an anarcho capitalist society, there is no state to ensure that collectives and co-operatives don't exist. Frankly, there's just anarchism.
Well the idea of anarcho capitalism is to basically not give a flying fuck about what people do with their resources, if they want to form communes and co-operatives, ANCAPS aren't too bothered about that.
The problem is without government and taxes there is no government spending, and that will mess up the economy big time. Aggregate demand will fall through the floor. Nobody will benefit from anarchy of any kind.
by Conglomerate of Iron » Sun Feb 08, 2015 6:04 pm
Liberty and Linguistics wrote:Conglomerate of Iron wrote:But see, I visualize a world where, once the state is overthrown, that communes and market communities can peacefully coexist.
When I talk to ancoms in real life, that is typically how they see it as well. On the internet you get a lot of BS from extremists.
Internet an-coms always tell me that there will be no desire for markets once the "ebul state" is overthrown. Unfortunately, they don't realize that unless every single member of an anarchist society is chill with the idea of co-existing on communes, that markets and states will form again. The same can be said for anarcho capitalism. Without a state, who's stopping disgruntled people from forming a state?
by Arcturus Novus » Sun Feb 08, 2015 6:04 pm
Nilokeras wrote:there is of course an interesting thread to pull on [...]
Unfortunately we're all forced to participate in whatever baroque humiliation kink the OP has going on instead.
by Skeckoa » Sun Feb 08, 2015 6:04 pm
This thread is about comparing ancapism and ancomism, not about explaining what they are or how it would work, so I will try to minimize the explaining.Kainesia wrote:Without a state, what stops one group from taking over all the others and forming a new state?
by Conglomerate of Iron » Sun Feb 08, 2015 6:06 pm
Arcturus Novus wrote:Personally, a society without a state seems like it'd fail, IMO. But for the topic's sake, I don't think two groups with economic ideologies on two opposite ends of a spectrum are going to get along very well, despite their common anarchist interests.
by Atomic Utopia » Sun Feb 08, 2015 6:08 pm
Conglomerate of Iron wrote:Kainesia wrote:
Well the idea of anarcho capitalism is to basically not give a flying fuck about what people do with their resources, if they want to form communes and co-operatives, ANCAPS aren't too bothered about that.
The problem is without government and taxes there is no government spending, and that will mess up the economy big time. Aggregate demand will fall through the floor. Nobody will benefit from anarchy of any kind.
Did you just mention "aggregate demand"?
Lol. Please do not mention such Paul Krugman bs ever again. Keynesian economics are what happens when you write theories while smoking crack cocaine.
Government does not create wealth, it only steals it.
by Farnhamia » Sun Feb 08, 2015 6:10 pm
Conglomerate of Iron wrote:Arcturus Novus wrote:Personally, a society without a state seems like it'd fail, IMO. But for the topic's sake, I don't think two groups with economic ideologies on two opposite ends of a spectrum are going to get along very well, despite their common anarchist interests.
Actually, if you kindly took a look at anarchist theories, you would see a stateless society is very possible. It has happened before if you look at history. Anarchist Catalonia is an example, and Iceland was an anarchist area for a while.
by Kainesia » Sun Feb 08, 2015 6:10 pm
Conglomerate of Iron wrote:Kainesia wrote:
Well the idea of anarcho capitalism is to basically not give a flying fuck about what people do with their resources, if they want to form communes and co-operatives, ANCAPS aren't too bothered about that.
The problem is without government and taxes there is no government spending, and that will mess up the economy big time. Aggregate demand will fall through the floor. Nobody will benefit from anarchy of any kind.
Did you just mention "aggregate demand"?
Lol. Please do not mention such Paul Krugman bs ever again. Keynesian economics are what happens when you write theories while smoking crack cocaine.
Government does not create wealth, it only steals it.
by Liberty and Linguistics » Sun Feb 08, 2015 6:11 pm
Conglomerate of Iron wrote:Arcturus Novus wrote:Personally, a society without a state seems like it'd fail, IMO. But for the topic's sake, I don't think two groups with economic ideologies on two opposite ends of a spectrum are going to get along very well, despite their common anarchist interests.
Actually, if you kindly took a look at anarchist theories, you would see a stateless society is very possible. It has happened before if you look at history. Anarchist Catalonia is an example, and Iceland was an anarchist area for a while.
by The New Sea Territory » Sun Feb 08, 2015 6:12 pm
| Ⓐ ☭ | Anarchist Communist | Heideggerian Marxist | Vegetarian | Bisexual | Stirnerite | Slavic/Germanic Pagan | ᚨ ᛟ |
Solntsa Roshcha --- Postmodern Poyltheist
"Christianity had brutally planted the poisoned blade in the healthy, quivering flesh of all humanity; it had goaded a cold wave
of darkness with mystically brutal fury to dim the serene and festive exultation of the dionysian spirit of our pagan ancestors."
-Renzo Novatore, Verso il Nulla Creatore
by Conglomerate of Iron » Sun Feb 08, 2015 6:12 pm
Atomic Utopia wrote:Conglomerate of Iron wrote:Did you just mention "aggregate demand"?
Lol. Please do not mention such Paul Krugman bs ever again. Keynesian economics are what happens when you write theories while smoking crack cocaine.
Government does not create wealth, it only steals it.
It also corrects for the externalities of various actions and invests in a police force to defend all businesses, not just those that can pay.
by Conglomerate of Iron » Sun Feb 08, 2015 6:15 pm
Kainesia wrote:Conglomerate of Iron wrote:Did you just mention "aggregate demand"?
Lol. Please do not mention such Paul Kruwagman bs ever again. Keynesian economics are what happens when you write theories while smoking crack cocaine.
Government does not create wealth, it only steals it.
Sorry, but what qualifications do you have in economics? It's not rocket science, government creates jobs and pays wages, people receive wages and spend it.
Why do you think the U.S government is running a deficit? Because they are putting more money into the economy than they are taking out. That doesn't sound like stealing to me.
You take away the public sector, and you destroy millions of jobs, and with no government welfare either, then you really will have anarchy. The burning, looting kind.
by The New Sea Territory » Sun Feb 08, 2015 6:17 pm
Skeckoa wrote: Ancaps have no philosophical issue with hierarchy as long as its voluntary. Ancoms have a different view of what is "voluntary".
| Ⓐ ☭ | Anarchist Communist | Heideggerian Marxist | Vegetarian | Bisexual | Stirnerite | Slavic/Germanic Pagan | ᚨ ᛟ |
Solntsa Roshcha --- Postmodern Poyltheist
"Christianity had brutally planted the poisoned blade in the healthy, quivering flesh of all humanity; it had goaded a cold wave
of darkness with mystically brutal fury to dim the serene and festive exultation of the dionysian spirit of our pagan ancestors."
-Renzo Novatore, Verso il Nulla Creatore
by The New Sea Territory » Sun Feb 08, 2015 6:18 pm
Farnhamia wrote:Catalonia was never anarchist. There were Anarchists in the Catalan government, a choice between what they considered the lesser of two evils, the State or the State Run By Franco.
| Ⓐ ☭ | Anarchist Communist | Heideggerian Marxist | Vegetarian | Bisexual | Stirnerite | Slavic/Germanic Pagan | ᚨ ᛟ |
Solntsa Roshcha --- Postmodern Poyltheist
"Christianity had brutally planted the poisoned blade in the healthy, quivering flesh of all humanity; it had goaded a cold wave
of darkness with mystically brutal fury to dim the serene and festive exultation of the dionysian spirit of our pagan ancestors."
-Renzo Novatore, Verso il Nulla Creatore
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