NationStates' Transgender Thread

[WestRedMaple]

Your post seems quite sexist.

Saying that nobody is biologically male indicates that you're unfamiliar with at least one of those terms.

I have a sex (male), and I have no gender.

Now, if by any chance, would you care to stop whining about sex and get around to discussing gender?

Contrary to your narrative, it is patent that those are interconnected. Perhaps not to us, but certainly to those who oppress us. So we should FULLY challenge their perception by FULLY denying them.

People change legal sex because they want to be recognized as male/female, and without regard to what they do with their own bodies, most particularly such intimate parts as genitals.

A person who had surgery managed to get X as legal sex in Australia. But we shouldn't tolerate that sort of bodily discrimination, either.

So far, I'm not the "sexist". The person who's supporting "sex" discrimination between different sets of trans people here is you, by your legitimization of the shit cissexists expect us to believe about ourselves.

Obviously you ARE the one behaving in a sexist manner, with your implication that there is something wrong with me being male.

That you dishonestly (and hypocritically) try to deny my identity and falsely claim that I support sex discrimination rather than attempt to actually address any of the points or the topic (which is based on gender, by the way, not sex) quite abundantly demonstrates your lack of desire for an honest, adult discussion here.

[Edgy Opinions]

I like it when you hit the bullseye so precisely because it saves me the effort of a complicated post.

I really don't care much when people say my bits or my anatomy in general is male, because I'm far above semantics. I even once thought I was a demiboy because of my capacity to be chill about these extremely questionable but still very widespread paradigms, aside my comfort with an absolute lack of transition so far and a lack of prospect for transition other than a light bodily one in the future.

But it's a discourse used to hurt us, not to mention the lots of trans people who have triggers based around their misgendering. So we can't assert things about all people ever when talking about this, particularly when this system is questionable (see my post right after Nathicana's second clean-up of the thread). It's just insensible.

[Kelinfort]

I am cis male, though my expression has been more feminine than masculine.

[Edgy Opinions]

Obviously you ARE the one behaving in a sexist manner, with your implication that there is something wrong with me being male.

That you dishonestly (and hypocritically) try to deny my identity and falsely claim that I support sex discrimination rather than attempt to actually address any of the points or the topic (which is based on gender, by the way, not sex) quite abundantly demonstrates your lack of desire for an honest, adult discussion here.

If you feel so strongly about your birth gender designation, how do you know you don't identify with anything?

There's something wrong with trans people saying things about themselves and applying it to all other trans people when obviously lots of us strongly disagree. Most agender people, if anything, want to NOT be referred to as male or female.

[Udinia]

So I'd like to know, what kinds of pronouns I should use when referring to someone who identifies with both genders or neither gender? Since he/him/his is meant to refer to males and she/her/hers is meant to refer to females, I'm a bit confused what I would use when referring to someone who is both or neither.

Good question! There are many gender-neutral pronouns: Some of the most common are they/them pronouns, but there are also xe/xem, ze/hir, and other pronouns. Here are some lists. If you want to know how to refer to a specific person, however, just ask them. Most trans* people don't mind being asked (in fact, I think that many would consider it more respectful than not asking), and in my experience, it's standard at meetings of trans* people to include your preferred pronouns in introductions.

@Geanna: Perhaps it would be beneficial to include a list of pronouns and their declensions in the OP.

Let's not propagate those abhorrent fake pronouns. He, she, and they are more than sufficient for any gender purposes.

Your post seems quite sexist.

Saying that nobody is biologically male indicates that you're unfamiliar with at least one of those terms.

I have a sex (male), and I have no gender.

Now, if by any chance, would you care to stop whining about sex and get around to discussing gender?

Contrary to your narrative, it is patent that those are interconnected. Perhaps not to us, but certainly to those who oppress us. So we should FULLY challenge their perception by FULLY denying them.

People change legal sex because they want to be recognized as male/female, and without regard to what they do with their own bodies, most particularly such intimate parts as genitals.

A person who had surgery managed to get X as legal sex in Australia. But we shouldn't tolerate that sort of bodily discrimination, either.

So far, I'm not the "sexist". The person who's supporting "sex" discrimination between different sets of trans people here is you, by your legitimization of the shit cissexists expect us to believe about ourselves.

And what fully propage MORE ignorance about gender and sex? Nothing says that recognition of the correlations between gender and sex is detrimental to the cause of trans equality. Yes, just because biological males may be more likely to be male gender or visa versa, doesn't mean that denies the entire gender spectrum or agenders.

[Edgy Opinions]

And what fully propage MORE ignorance about gender and sex? Nothing says that recognition of the correlations between gender and sex is detrimental to the cause of trans equality. Yes, just because biological males may be more likely to be male gender or visa versa, doesn't mean that denies the entire gender spectrum or agenders.

What if I told you there are no biological males because the concepts of biological sex, and what is masculine/feminine, is really arbitrary in the case of humans?

[WestRedMaple]

Obviously you ARE the one behaving in a sexist manner, with your implication that there is something wrong with me being male.

That you dishonestly (and hypocritically) try to deny my identity and falsely claim that I support sex discrimination rather than attempt to actually address any of the points or the topic (which is based on gender, by the way, not sex) quite abundantly demonstrates your lack of desire for an honest, adult discussion here.

If you feel so strongly about your birth gender designation, how do you know you don't identify with anything?

There's something wrong with trans people saying things about themselves and applying it to all other trans people when obviously lots of us strongly disagree. Most agender people, if anything, want to NOT be referred to as male or female.

I have never mentioned any birth gender designation of myself, let alone ever say anything about feeling strongly about it.

If you don't like saying something about yourself and then applying it to everyone else, then don't do it.

In any case, you're responding to me about issues of yours rather than addressing anything about me or my posts.

[Udinia]

And what fully propage MORE ignorance about gender and sex? Nothing says that recognition of the correlations between gender and sex is detrimental to the cause of trans equality. Yes, just because biological males may be more likely to be male gender or visa versa, doesn't mean that denies the entire gender spectrum or agenders.

What if I told you there are no biological males because the concepts of biological sex, and what is masculine/feminine, is really arbitrary in the case of humans?

That makes no sense, Edgy. Biological sex is not arbitrary, it is genetic XY. I don't consider the morphological expression as important really, as in intersex stuff. It's all in the chromosomes.

[Edgy Opinions]

I have never mentioned any birth gender designation of myself, let alone ever say anything about feeling strongly about it.

If you don't like saying something about yourself and then applying it to everyone else, then don't do it.

In any case, you're responding to me about issues of yours rather than addressing anything about me or my posts.

"there is something wrong with me being male.

That you dishonestly (and hypocritically) try to deny my identity"

Yeah, this would be an indication that you, who presumably has a recognizably testicular anatomy, was raised as male.

I don't do apply my impressions about myself to other people. I'm challenging something about the current cultural expectations and notions, not what trans people honestly want. Such expectations and notions that you assert are true for everyone else.

Albeit your narrative is confusing. If I felt so strong about the institutional recognition and semantics surrounding how I'm called based on my genitals, I'd likely identify with demiboy rather than agender. But you're not me, clearly.

If I have a sexual corporeality, it is mine and nobody else's. It is unique, and ambiguous in proportions that are not possible of reproduction with contemporary technology. My sex would thus only be gendered with my own actual gender. My sex would have to be imprigender neutroisflux (or just neutrois), for I am not male and likely not classified as intersex according to the common understanding of it (besides, "blurry non-classification" with tons of unrelated phenotypes is not an actual sex in any meaningful system).

[Nature-Spirits]

Good question! There are many gender-neutral pronouns: Some of the most common are they/them pronouns, but there are also xe/xem, ze/hir, and other pronouns. Here are some lists. If you want to know how to refer to a specific person, however, just ask them. Most trans* people don't mind being asked (in fact, I think that many would consider it more respectful than not asking), and in my experience, it's standard at meetings of trans* people to include your preferred pronouns in introductions.

@Geanna: Perhaps it would be beneficial to include a list of pronouns and their declensions in the OP.

Let's not propagate those abhorrent fake pronouns. He, she, and they are more than sufficient for any gender purposes.

Some people prefer non-traditional pronouns. I don't use them for myself (I accept he/him, they/them, and she/her pronouns), but when someone asks me to use, say, ze/hir pronouns, I'll use them, because to do otherwise is disrespectful.

Good question! There are many gender-neutral pronouns: Some of the most common are they/them pronouns, but there are also xe/xem, ze/hir, and other pronouns. Here are some lists. If you want to know how to refer to a specific person, however, just ask them. Most trans* people don't mind being asked (in fact, I think that many would consider it more respectful than not asking), and in my experience, it's standard at meetings of trans* people to include your preferred pronouns in introductions.

@Geanna: Perhaps it would be beneficial to include a list of pronouns and their declensions in the OP.

Thanks!! I appreciate the lists! I'll definitely try to remember to ask.

You're welcome!

[Edgy Opinions]

That makes no sense, Edgy. Biological sex is not arbitrary, it is genetic XY. I don't consider the morphological expression as important really, as in intersex stuff. It's all in the chromosomes.

Yeah, except that is not the common scientific narrative, and chromosomes don't do jack shit only by themselves, besides most people never had a karyotype test.

[WestRedMaple]

I have never mentioned any birth gender designation of myself, let alone ever say anything about feeling strongly about it.

If you don't like saying something about yourself and then applying it to everyone else, then don't do it.

In any case, you're responding to me about issues of yours rather than addressing anything about me or my posts.

"there is something wrong with me being male.

That you dishonestly (and hypocritically) try to deny my identity"

Yeah, this would be an indication that you, who presumably has a recognizably testicular anatomy, was raised as male.

I don't do apply my impressions about myself to other people. I'm challenging something about the current cultural expectations and notions, not what trans people honestly want. Such expectations and notions that you assert are true for everyone else.

Albeit your narrative is confusing. If I felt so strong about the institutional recognition and semantics surrounding how I'm called based on my genitals, I'd likely identify with demiboy rather than agender. But you're not me, clearly.

If I have a sexual corporeality, it is mine and nobody else's. It is unique, and ambiguous in proportions that are not possible of reproduction with contemporary technology. My sex would thus only be gendered with my own actual gender. My sex would have to be imprigender neutroisflux (or just neutrois), for I am not male and likely not classified as intersex according to the common understanding of it (besides, "blurry non-classification" with tons of unrelated phenotypes is not an actual sex in any meaningful system).

you say you aren't doing it, yet you are the only one of the two of us who ever brought it up. You also bring up other things which you know are utterly unrelated to anything I've posted, but you ask the question of me. That smacks of projection

Biologically, humans are just animals, and the same terms were created (accurately) for both humans and other animals.

A person's identified gender is a different thing. A person of any biological configuration can identify as any gender.

[Nature-Spirits]

I have never mentioned any birth gender designation of myself, let alone ever say anything about feeling strongly about it.

If you don't like saying something about yourself and then applying it to everyone else, then don't do it.

In any case, you're responding to me about issues of yours rather than addressing anything about me or my posts.

"there is something wrong with me being male.

That you dishonestly (and hypocritically) try to deny my identity"

Yeah, this would be an indication that you, who presumably has a recognizably testicular anatomy, was raised as male.

I don't do apply my impressions about myself to other people. I'm challenging something about the current cultural expectations and notions, not what trans people honestly want. Such expectations and notions that you assert are true for everyone else.

Albeit your narrative is confusing. If I felt so strong about the institutional recognition and semantics surrounding how I'm called based on my genitals, I'd likely identify with demiboy rather than agender. But you're not me, clearly.

If I have a sexual corporeality, it is mine and nobody else's. It is unique, and ambiguous in proportions that are not possible of reproduction with contemporary technology. My sex would thus only be gendered with my own actual gender. My sex would have to be imprigender neutroisflux (or just neutrois), for I am not male and likely not classified as intersex according to the common understanding of it (besides, "blurry non-classification" with tons of unrelated phenotypes is not an actual sex in any meaningful system).

No, gender and sex are mutually exclusive. For instance, my sex is always male, but my gender is only male part of the time.

[Edgy Opinions]

you say you aren't doing it, yet you are the only one of the two of us who ever brought it up. You also bring up other things which you know are utterly unrelated to anything I've posted, but you ask the question of me. That smacks of projection

Biologically, humans are just animals, and the same terms were created (accurately) for both humans and other animals.

A person's identified gender is a different thing. A person of any biological configuration can identify as any gender.

We shouldn't name sex with the gender term if people are going to only recognize sex, and will thereby socially and institutionally treat many women as men and many men as women.

[Edgy Opinions]

No, gender and sex are mutually exclusive. For instance, my sex is always male, but my gender is only male part of the time.

It makes sense you want to stress a side of yourself, but agender people in general tend to fully reject these classifications because they see no purpose in them.

My sex is most certainly not male and there's no way people can say it is and then manage to prove it to be an objectively good, fair, unbiased system.

[WestRedMaple]

you say you aren't doing it, yet you are the only one of the two of us who ever brought it up. You also bring up other things which you know are utterly unrelated to anything I've posted, but you ask the question of me. That smacks of projection

Biologically, humans are just animals, and the same terms were created (accurately) for both humans and other animals.

A person's identified gender is a different thing. A person of any biological configuration can identify as any gender.

We shouldn't name sex with the gender term if people are going to only recognize sex, and will thereby socially and institutionally treat many women as men and many men as women.

Well then, how come you keep using sex terms to name genders?

[New Hampshire Republic]

The headings of the sections in the op... sweet Jesus.

[Edgy Opinions]

Well then, how come you keep using sex terms to name genders?

Male and female are gender terms, we used them for sexes before gender popped up as a notion for people's identities in the last century.

Their use for sex is little practical because there are no inherent masculine or feminine qualities or traits to biology, given how masculine and feminine denote purely human behavior and cognition.

[Nature-Spirits]

No, gender and sex are mutually exclusive. For instance, my sex is always male, but my gender is only male part of the time.

It makes sense you want to stress a side of yourself, but agender people in general tend to fully reject these classifications because they see no purpose in them.

My sex is most certainly not male and there's no way people can say it is and then manage to prove it to be an objectively good, fair, unbiased system.

What makes you think I want to stress my sex? Sure, I don't mind having a male body most of the time, and I may sometimes have a male gender, but on the whole my sex only matters to me when I'm using it in reference to my sexual orientation (i.e. I identify as homosexual, because my sex is male and I'm only sexually attracted to males).

We shouldn't name sex with the gender term if people are going to only recognize sex, and will thereby socially and institutionally treat many women as men and many men as women.

Well then, how come you keep using sex terms to name genders?

^ This.

[Nature-Spirits]

Well then, how come you keep using sex terms to name genders?

Male and female are gender terms, we used them for sexes before gender popped up as a notion for people's identities in the last century.

Their use for sex is little practical because there are no inherent masculine or feminine qualities or traits to biology, given how masculine and feminine denote purely human behavior and cognition.

What terms would you propose we use for sex, then? Do you think we should we replace "male" and "female" (when referring to sex) with "penis" and "vagina"?

[WestRedMaple]

Well then, how come you keep using sex terms to name genders?

Male and female are gender terms, we used them for sexes before gender popped up as a notion for people's identities in the last century.

Their use for sex is little practical because there are no inherent masculine or feminine qualities or traits to biology, given how masculine and feminine denote purely human behavior and cognition.

Male and female are sex terms. They also apply to monitor lizards, red pandas, and kingfishers. None of them have any human genders to begin with.

You complain about the terms, but then turn around and freely use them as you desire.

[Edgy Opinions]

What terms would you propose we use for sex, then? Do you think we should we replace "male" and "female" (when referring to sex) with "penis" and "vagina"?

I mostly use ovarian and testicular, ovarian-/testicular-typical or XX and XY OR non-Y/Y-including when I need to specify chromosomes.

[Edgy Opinions]

Male and female are sex terms. They also apply to monitor lizards, red pandas, and kingfishers. None of them have any human genders to begin with.

You complain about the terms, but then turn around and freely use them as you desire.

I already said that has a historical and etymological explanation. I won't further dwell into that.

We can have male and female avoided when talking about humans, it's objectively arbitrary.

Also, animal sexes often might be far more complex than our well-known binary system.

[Nature-Spirits]

What terms would you propose we use for sex, then? Do you think we should we replace "male" and "female" (when referring to sex) with "penis" and "vagina"?

I mostly use ovarian and testicular, ovarian-/testicular-typical or XX and XY OR non-Y/Y-including when I need to specify chromosomes.

Alright, I concede that those terminologies do make sense, and avoid any ambiguity associated with "male" and "female".

However, the fact is that most people aren't used to those terms, and many would be likely to not understand what you're trying to convey with them. It's easier just to say "male" and "female". You can even add "sex" after them to convey that you're not referring to gender.

[Edgy Opinions]

Alright, I concede that those terminologies do make sense, and avoid any ambiguity associated with "male" and "female".

However, the fact is that most people aren't used to those terms, and many would be likely to not understand what you're trying to convey with them. It's easier just to say "male" and "female". You can even add "sex" after them to convey that you're not referring to gender.

It's my understanding that sex is only relevant for sex partners (who would have to learn about trans people anyway before just going batshit about their existence and having touched them), and doctors (who would have to understand such scientific, non-ambiguous terminology).

People who talk about the sex of trans people most often don't understand it fully and do it for social rather than physiological purposes of it.