Human traffickers put ship full of passengers on autopilot

[Novorobo]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/mig ... story.html

Does Italy have the death penalty? Seems like this might be the kind of case you'd need it for. Otherwise, what incentive do future human traffickers have not to leave passengers on a ship on autopilot?

[Alyakia]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/migrants-reach-italy-after-crew-abandons-ship/2014/12/31/685ecd76-90ce-11e4-a412-4b735edc7175_story.html

Does Italy have the death penalty? Seems like this might be the kind of case you'd need it for. Otherwise, what incentive do future human traffickers have not to leave passengers on a ship on autopilot?

no they don't

what incentive? the entire point is not to get caught. "what happens when i get caught" isn't part of the equation.

[The Lotophagi]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/migrants-reach-italy-after-crew-abandons-ship/2014/12/31/685ecd76-90ce-11e4-a412-4b735edc7175_story.html

Does Italy have the death penalty? Seems like this might be the kind of case you'd need it for. Otherwise, what incentive do future human traffickers have not to leave passengers on a ship on autopilot?

no they don't

what incentive? the entire point is not to get caught. "what happens when i get caught" isn't part of the equation.

I'm reminded of a line from The West Wing;

Leo McGarry: And do you think ratcheting up the body count is going to act as a deterrent?
President Josiah Bartlet: You're damn right I do.
Leo McGarry:Oh, well then you're just as stupid as these guys who think that capital punishment is going to be a deterrent for drug kingpins. As if drug kingpins didn't live their day-to-day lives under the possibility of execution. And their executions are a lot less dainty than ours, and tend to take place without the bother and expense of due process.

[Novorobo]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/migrants-reach-italy-after-crew-abandons-ship/2014/12/31/685ecd76-90ce-11e4-a412-4b735edc7175_story.html

Does Italy have the death penalty? Seems like this might be the kind of case you'd need it for. Otherwise, what incentive do future human traffickers have not to leave passengers on a ship on autopilot?

no they don't

what incentive? the entire point is not to get caught. "what happens when i get caught" isn't part of the equation.

By that logic, house arrest would do for just about any criminal, since hey, they got caught, right?

[MERIZoC]

no they don't

what incentive? the entire point is not to get caught. "what happens when i get caught" isn't part of the equation.

I'm reminded of a line from The West Wing;

Leo McGarry: And do you think ratcheting up the body count is going to act as a deterrent?
President Josiah Bartlet: You're damn right I do.
Leo McGarry:Oh, well then you're just as stupid as these guys who think that capital punishment is going to be a deterrent for drug kingpins. As if drug kingpins didn't live their day-to-day lives under the possibility of execution. And their executions are a lot less dainty than ours, and tend to take place without the bother and expense of due process.

I love Leo. That was a great show.

[MERIZoC]

no they don't

what incentive? the entire point is not to get caught. "what happens when i get caught" isn't part of the equation.

By that logic, house arrest would do for just about any criminal, since hey, they got caught, right?

How exactly would house arrest deter people?

[Dei Terrare]

Sounds a lot like a GTA San Andreas mission in San Fierro.

[Independent States of Tula]

By that logic, house arrest would do for just about any criminal, since hey, they got caught, right?

How exactly would house arrest deter people?

He's being sarcastic, and pointing out the flaw in logic that he and I'm sure many other people would perceive.

[MERIZoC]

How exactly would house arrest deter people?

He's being sarcastic, and pointing out the flaw in logic that he and I'm sure many other people would perceive.

And I'm pointing out that there is no need to go to extremes.

[Shilya]

Does Italy have the death penalty? Seems like this might be the kind of case you'd need it for. Otherwise, what incentive do future human traffickers have not to leave passengers on a ship on autopilot?

No, they don't, and the question is moot anyways, since they, well, bailed.

As for what incentive they have, well, they lose the ship, which from their point of view is likely the best incentive. Ships cost money.

All in all, let's just be glad that this ended reasonably well.

[The Lotophagi]

He's being sarcastic, and pointing out the flaw in logic that he and I'm sure many other people would perceive.

And I'm pointing out that there is no need to go to extremes.

Yeah. Deterrence-based systems of justice didn't work in the middle ages and they sure won't work now.

[Krasny-Volny]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/migrants-reach-italy-after-crew-abandons-ship/2014/12/31/685ecd76-90ce-11e4-a412-4b735edc7175_story.html

Does Italy have the death penalty? Seems like this might be the kind of case you'd need it for. Otherwise, what incentive do future human traffickers have not to leave passengers on a ship on autopilot?

no they don't

what incentive? the entire point is not to get caught. "what happens when i get caught" isn't part of the equation.

If you're in clandestine business - doesn't matter if you're running drugs, arms, or humans, always have a Plan B.

Always.

[Northwest Slobovia]

I gotta admire that sort of coldly calculating evil. And evil shall be repaid in it's own coin, a coin of lead!

[Sebastianbourg]

Not surprising really; virtually everyone (whether opposed to these refugees or not) knows the shit the human traffickers do and the shit the would-be refugees go through.

[Novorobo]

Does Italy have the death penalty? Seems like this might be the kind of case you'd need it for. Otherwise, what incentive do future human traffickers have not to leave passengers on a ship on autopilot?

No, they don't, and the question is moot anyways, since they, well, bailed.

As for what incentive they have, well, they lose the ship, which from their point of view is likely the best incentive. Ships cost money.

All in all, let's just be glad that this ended reasonably well.

It will this time, but without sufficient deterrence it could happen again, and next time it might not end so well.

Isn't human trafficking already something you could in theory go to prison for if caught? That seems like a much worse thought than losing an expensive ship. I presume there would be some way to find out who did this?

And I'm pointing out that there is no need to go to extremes.

Yeah. Deterrence-based systems of justice didn't work in the middle ages and they sure won't work now.

Well, I think it also depends on how reasonable the laws are in a country. Medieval laws were very obviously unreasonable, so there would've been more of an uphill battle for said deterrence to fight.

Not surprising really; virtually everyone (whether opposed to these refugees or not) knows the shit the human traffickers do and the shit the would-be refugees go through.

I would've thought there was a middle ground between "do this free of charge" and "leave the ship on autopilot and ditch the passengers" though. Or is there something about that business that eliminates that middle ground?

[Northwest Slobovia]

Not surprising really; virtually everyone (whether opposed to these refugees or not) knows the shit the human traffickers do and the shit the would-be refugees go through.

I would've thought there was a middle ground between "do this free of charge" and "leave the ship on autopilot and ditch the passengers" though. Or is there something about that business that eliminates that middle ground?

Essentially no repeat business. There are three sorts of customers: those who are successfully smuggled in, those who die trying, and those who get caught and are sent back to where they started. The first two don't need any more human trafficing, and the third were usually bankrupted by the first attempt, and so rarely try again. (Mexico-US border smuggling is apparently different, since the distance and money scales are smaller.)

[Shilya]

It will this time, but without sufficient deterrence it could happen again, and next time it might not end so well.

Isn't human trafficking already something you could in theory go to prison for if caught? That seems like a much worse thought than losing an expensive ship. I presume there would be some way to find out who did this?

Of course it's illegal. And if we could find them, of course we'd send their asses to jail. But that's not the premise under which they operate, they presume they don't get caught. So the deterrence doesn't work.

[The Lotophagi]

Well, I think it also depends on how reasonable the laws are in a country. Medieval laws were very obviously unreasonable, so there would've been more of an uphill battle for said deterrence to fight.

Well of course they were unreasonable. Deterrence-based legal systems are based on the idea of trying to deter crime by making the punishment so excessively horrible that everybody else thinks twice about doing it. Reasonability is the opposite of the goal. Get caught stealing bread in Constantinople? The punishment was to be tied to a post in a public square and whipped. Cheat on your spouse and get caught? Have your tongue cut out with a hot knife or be blinded with hot pokers. And so on.

Either way, people still stole bread, still cheated on their spouses, still did all the usual crimes humans have committed since time immemorial. Because deterrence doesn't work.

[Divitaen]

How is this case related to the death penalty? It seems like the human traffickers do not expect to ever get caught anyway, and a death penalty is probably not going to deter them very much.

[Northwest Slobovia]

How is this case related to the death penalty? It seems like the human traffickers do not expect to ever get caught anyway, and a death penalty is probably not going to deter them very much.

I'm not aware that most criminals expect to get caught. Does kind of put a crimp in the whole scheme, doesn't it: "...and then after I get the money, the police will find me, and I'll go out in a blaze of glory."?

[Eaischpnaeieacgkque Bhcieaghpodsttditf]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/migrants-reach-italy-after-crew-abandons-ship/2014/12/31/685ecd76-90ce-11e4-a412-4b735edc7175_story.html

Does Italy have the death penalty? Seems like this might be the kind of case you'd need it for. Otherwise, what incentive do future human traffickers have not to leave passengers on a ship on autopilot?

haha. they are going to get it now.

[Novorobo]

You know what? Come to think of it, I now agree it's a bad idea to execute them. Normally I would be the one making the deterrence value of the death penalty out to be overrated, I guess in my anger last night I sort of lost sight of that.

Does that make me a hypocrite?

[The Lone Alliance]

This isn't anything new, in some places it's even worse. I heard that people who try to ship people into Australia deliberately make the ships start sinking before fleeing in order to force a rescue with the expectation that once the ships recovered the passengers they'll be forced to go back to port where they could declare Asylum.

Which used to work before Australia set up a thing that any people recovered from the water will be taken to another country.

I think a more fitting punishment for these people would be to dumped in the very worst part of where these people are fleeing from without any money.