The NS Infantry Discussion Thread, L5A1

[Bezombia]

weighht of the Bolt Bolt CCarrier Group

it's like two guns in one

[Yukonastan]

The issue is not with the internal workings, the issue is with the powder burning producing a force that drives the bullet forward along a line, and driving the gun rearwards along that same line. If the line along which this combustion takes place is parallel to the line around which the entire firearm is connected to a sink for the recoil energy (eg your shoulder), the force will result in the gun torquing around your shoulder to get rid of that energy. By placing the barrel closer to the point at which the stock contacts the shoulder (as I show in the diagrams of the M14, M14E2, and M16) the energy doesn't cause the gun to torque around your shoulder as much, or even better, if the line along which the gun is pushed rearwards by the force of the burning powder is directly in line with where the stock contacts the shoulder of the shooter, there will be no torquing of the gun around the shoulder.

The advantage of placing the gas system above the barrel means that you waste less space for a design with the barrel in line with the stock, which results in a more controllable rifle in automatic or burst fire, which means that more shots will find their target.

Simple physics will confirm this. It's just vectors with forces acting upon them.

Guns don't rotate during recoil. You are wrong.

I challenge you to fire one of your Mosins with the rear of the receiver (or bolt) braced against an immobile object. That is literally the only circumstance in which said gun will not rotate while recoiling.

[Spreewerke]

Guns don't rotate during recoil. You are wrong.

I challenge you to fire one of your Mosins with the rear of the receiver (or bolt) braced against an immobile object. That is literally the only circumstance in which said gun will not rotate while recoiling.

Wrong.

There is only muzzle rise and muzzle drift. No rotation.

[Puzikas]

D...did you really just tell me how a gun works.

I believe you did.

I am literally without words as to how dumbfounded I am.

I think were done here since you've neglected to address the point that it doesnt matter. The motion of a gas piston produces negligible addition or omission to the recoil force of a weapon, which is what I have been saying from the start. If you want to argue about that, I advise you go out and shoot a few self-loading, piston-driven rifles then come back and do a comparison of them for us.

[Nirvash Type TheEND]

I have not laughed this hard at this thread in a long time.

[Fordorsia]

Busy watching Sharpe. What is happen

[Nirvash Type TheEND]

Guns don't rotate during recoil. You are wrong.

I challenge you to fire one of your Mosins with the rear of the receiver (or bolt) braced against an immobile object. That is literally the only circumstance in which said gun will not rotate while recoiling.

Want me to let you in on a little secret? The gun doesn't rotate. You do.

[Puzikas]

I challenge you to fire one of your Mosins with the rear of the receiver (or bolt) braced against an immobile object. That is literally the only circumstance in which said gun will not rotate while recoiling.

Want me to let you in on a little secret? The gun doesn't rotate. You do.

*gasps of shock and horror*

But my stance is IMPECCABLE

I have observed this in bench rest shooting, The issue with it is the stand and the way the shooter is to the rifle.

[Bratislavskaya]

Busy watching Sharpe. What is happen

What channels do you get? I haven't seen it on TV since, like 2011.

[Yukonastan]

I challenge you to fire one of your Mosins with the rear of the receiver (or bolt) braced against an immobile object. That is literally the only circumstance in which said gun will not rotate while recoiling.

Want me to let you in on a little secret? The gun doesn't rotate. You do.

http://gifmaker.me/PlayGIFAnimation.php?folder=2014121009Qs1TIbkBJ7CtDES20kHqJZ&file=output_LrarG3.gif

Doesn't matter whether the gun's stock is placed against your shoulder or against a tree trunk, if the stock isn't in line with the barrel, the muzzle WILL flip up due to the gun rotating. Please understand basic physics.

---

D...did you really just tell me how a gun works.

I believe you did.

I am literally without words as to how dumbfounded I am.

I think were done here since you've neglected to address the point that it doesnt matter. The motion of a gas piston produces negligible addition or omission to the recoil force of a weapon, which is what I have been saying from the start. If you want to argue about that, I advise you go out and shoot a few self-loading, piston-driven rifles then come back and do a comparison of them for us.

I never said that the gas system mattered in itself. I said that the position of the barrel relative to the stock, which may be influenced by the location of the gas system, matters.

[Nirvash Type TheEND]

Want me to let you in on a little secret? The gun doesn't rotate. You do.

*gasps of shock and horror*

But my stance is IMPECCABLE

I have observed this in bench rest shooting, The issue with it is the stand and the way the shooter is to the rifle.

yfw

[Heicliffe]

Pretty much me for the last few pages.

I find all of your discussions/arguments fascinating.

[Fordorsia]

Busy watching Sharpe. What is happen

What channels do you get? I haven't seen it on TV since, like 2011.

Interwebs are amazing

[Bezombia]

D...did you really just tell me how a gun works.

I believe you did.

I am literally without words as to how dumbfounded I am.

I think were done here since you've neglected to address the point that it doesnt matter. The motion of a gas piston produces negligible addition or omission to the recoil force of a weapon, which is what I have been saying from the start. If you want to argue about that, I advise you go out and shoot a few self-loading, piston-driven rifles then come back and do a comparison of them for us.

But puz!
Clearly two seconds on google is more credible then decades of actual hands on experience and centuries of experimentation.

[Nirvash Type TheEND]

Want me to let you in on a little secret? The gun doesn't rotate. You do.

http://gifmaker.me/PlayGIFAnimation.php?folder=2014121009Qs1TIbkBJ7CtDES20kHqJZ&file=output_LrarG3.gif

Doesn't matter whether the gun's stock is placed against your shoulder or against a tree trunk, if the stock isn't in line with the barrel, the muzzle WILL flip up due to the gun rotating. Please understand basic physics.

Shoot a gun in space. Gun flies straight back. It does not rotate. When the gun moves back and hits something the direction the force travels is altered. You remind me of one of Ulfr's real life friends. He likes to misunderstand fundamental physics too.

[Bratislavskaya]

What channels do you get? I haven't seen it on TV since, like 2011.

Interwebs are amazing

Oh. Of course. Your one of those guys.

[Bezombia]

http://gifmaker.me/PlayGIFAnimation.php?folder=2014121009Qs1TIbkBJ7CtDES20kHqJZ&file=output_LrarG3.gif

...................................................lol

[Crookfur]

Busy watching Sharpe. What is happen

What channels do you get? I haven't seen it on TV since, like 2011.

Is Yesterday or Drama available on free view? If not then you'll need sky or virgin. Both of those channels show the entire collection fairly often interspersed with pride and prejudice and cadfael.
Or as Ford suggested there is teh intar webz
Of course the above will only make any sense to a UK dweller.

[Nirvash Type TheEND]

http://gifmaker.me/PlayGIFAnimation.php?folder=2014121009Qs1TIbkBJ7CtDES20kHqJZ&file=output_LrarG3.gif

...................................................lol

You can even see that the gun is moving back until the last frame where it's still in the same spot and then the muzzle flips. It's as if it's hitting some sort of spooky scary skeleton that wrenches backwards when hit in the shoulder with 21 billion joules or sommat.

[Puzikas]

http://gifmaker.me/PlayGIFAnimation.php?folder=2014121009Qs1TIbkBJ7CtDES20kHqJZ&file=output_LrarG3.gif

Doesn't matter whether the gun's stock is placed against your shoulder or against a tree trunk, if the stock isn't in line with the barrel, the muzzle WILL flip up due to the gun rotating. Please understand basic physics.

Shoot a gun in space. Gun flies straight back. It does not rotate. When the gun moves back and hits something the direction the force travels is altered. You remind me of one of Ulfr's real life friends. He likes to misunderstand fundamental physics too.

Hes using rotate in that funny communist way where it can also reference vertical rotation as opposed to horizontal rotation.

For normal people, this is called rise.

I never said that the gas system mattered in itself. I said that the position of the barrel relative to the stock, which may be influenced by the location of the gas system, matters.

This matters only slightly more in a normal rife. In a pistol, yes. In a rifle, unless taken to the extreme, it matters only slightly more. Again, understanding of how to into gun will reduce the muzzle rise.

[Bezombia]

...................................................lol

You can even see that the gun is moving back until the last frame where it's still in the same spot and then the muzzle flips. It's as if it's hitting some sort of spooky scary skeleton that wrenches backwards when hit in the shoulder with 21 billion joules or sommat.

Not to mention the dubious (at best!) credibility of contextless animations.

[Spreewerke]

I never said that the gas system mattered in itself. I said that the position of the barrel relative to the stock, which may be influenced by the location of the gas system, matters.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21klXqBwRd8

Obviously, in-line stocks reduce all recoil that might influence a rifle to have muzzle climb and it has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact above your arms/rest is simply the path of least resistance or anything. This is demonstrated here with an AR-15 in a leadsled that shows us how the in-line buffer tube/bolt system reduces all noticeable movement of the weapon.

[Yukonastan]

D...did you really just tell me how a gun works.

I believe you did.

I am literally without words as to how dumbfounded I am.

I think were done here since you've neglected to address the point that it doesnt matter. The motion of a gas piston produces negligible addition or omission to the recoil force of a weapon, which is what I have been saying from the start. If you want to argue about that, I advise you go out and shoot a few self-loading, piston-driven rifles then come back and do a comparison of them for us.

But puz!
Clearly two seconds on google is more credible then decades of actual hands on experience and centuries of experimentation.

pretty much this, lol.

I think we're all misunderstanding each other. Puz thinks I'm talking about the effects of a gas piston on the recoil of a weapon, other people don't think that muzzle flip equates to rotation when the gun is seen from the side, yayayayayaya.

Either way, gas system on top for maximum :stuff:, to return to the original argument.

---

Nirvash, the gun will in fact rotate if fired in space, with zero influence from gravity. The barrel is not in line with the centre of mass, and in space inertia still applies. But this is beside the point.

On the diagram I threw up, I assumed that there is a shoulder behind the M1. Notice how the gun rotates around the end of the stock, where one may assume there exists a shoulder against which it is braced. As such, the gun cannot travel straight back, and since the line of the barrel (along which the force of firing is generated) is above the point of contact with the stock, it will still try to rid itself of that energy. By making the muzzle flip up, due to a rotation imparted to the gun.

---

I never said that the gas system mattered in itself. I said that the position of the barrel relative to the stock, which may be influenced by the location of the gas system, matters.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21klXqBwRd8

Obviously, in-line stocks reduce all recoil that might influence a rifle to have muzzle climb and it has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact above your arms/rest is simply the path of least resistance or anything. This is demonstrated here with an AR-15 in a leadsled that shows us how the in-line buffer tube/bolt system reduces all noticeable movement of the weapon.

This is the point I'm trying to make, and that I'm trying to relate back to the original question of beno, which asked about topside or bottomside gas systems, and why.

Anyway, I'm done.

[Nirvash Type TheEND]

I never said that the gas system mattered in itself. I said that the position of the barrel relative to the stock, which may be influenced by the location of the gas system, matters.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21klXqBwRd8

Obviously, in-line stocks reduce all recoil that might influence a rifle to have muzzle climb and it has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact above your arms/rest is simply the path of least resistance or anything. This is demonstrated here with an AR-15 in a leadsled that shows us how the in-line buffer tube/bolt system reduces all noticeable movement of the weapon.

Again, backwards then up.

[Spreewerke]

I'll post one more thing since none of these firearms have an in-line stock with the bore, or for the handguns' matter, a stock: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=em1AgMenc94&index=101

Longer version with PKM and stuff: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_tcuL-wCLM