How much reform can the new Pope get away with?

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Removal. And if someone's rabid enough, assassination attempts too.

I don't know if the Church actually has any mechanisms for the removal of a Pope from office without his express consent, and there have been many popes who were not well-liked and did some fairly dodgy things who were not kicked out.

If the college of cardinals deems that the Pope is "mentally unstable", they can shut him out of public light and prevent him from making any decisions.

Or they could go Lucrezia Body is on him. Who knows.

[Eleanor Ritas]

What would be the consequences to his Papacy if he tried and took it as far as he could? (Either because he really believed God told him to, or because of a brain tumor, or whatever)

Removal. And if someone's rabid enough, assassination attempts too.

It might be interesting to see how the Swiss guard would react, if they harbored many traditionalists among their ranks and saw my imaginary Super Reforming Pope Francis with Kung Fu Socialist Grip as a threat to the office of the Papacy (and thus their own positions), would they collaborate in his ouster or even death?

Rather like Praetorians might react to an Emperor who sought to restore the Republic?

[Antirome]

If the college of cardinals deems that the Pope is "mentally unstable", they can shut him out of public light and prevent him from making any decisions.

Or they could go Lucrezia Body is on him. Who knows.

As fearsome as a group of men in black robes may seem, I can't say as I think they would get away with something like that very easily.

I am afraid I don't know what you mean by Lucrezia Body, though.

[Russadon]

No reform is meaningful until nuns administer the sacraments.

The removal of entrenched sexism from dogma is necessary for the long term survival of the Church. John Paul II greatly undermined Vatican II in this regard.

And how, exactly, did Vatican II call for women priests??

[Eleanor Ritas]

If the college of cardinals deems that the Pope is "mentally unstable", they can shut him out of public light and prevent him from making any decisions.

Or they could go Lucrezia Body is on him. Who knows.

As fearsome as a group of men in black robes may seem, I can't say as I think they would get away with something like that very easily.

I am afraid I don't know what you mean by Lucrezia Body, though.

I took it as a reference to Lucrezia "The Body" Borgia, but I could be wrong.

I'm probably wrong.

I'm wrong.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Removal. And if someone's rabid enough, assassination attempts too.

It might be interesting to see how the Swiss guard would react, if they harbored many traditionalists among their ranks and saw my imaginary Super Reforming Pope Francis with Kung Fu Socialist Grip as a threat to the office of the Papacy (and thus their own positions), would they collaborate in his ouster or even death?

Rather like Praetorians might react to an Emperor who sought to restore the Republic?

I know they swear fealty to the Pope but if irked enough... who knows. Although a good step, if Pope Francis were to adopt such an unprecedented stance, traditionalists could be bothered enough to attempt to have him killed. And since, AFAIK, papal autopsies aren't performed... speculating, I know.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

If the college of cardinals deems that the Pope is "mentally unstable", they can shut him out of public light and prevent him from making any decisions.

Or they could go Lucrezia Body is on him. Who knows.

As fearsome as a group of men in black robes may seem, I can't say as I think they would get away with something like that very easily.

I am afraid I don't know what you mean by Lucrezia Body, though.

I'm playing on these historical rumors: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucrezia_Borgia#Rumours

[Antirome]

As fearsome as a group of men in black robes may seem, I can't say as I think they would get away with something like that very easily.

I am afraid I don't know what you mean by Lucrezia Body, though.

I'm playing on these historical rumors: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucrezia_Borgia#Rumours

Oh, of course. I'd never heard of Lucrezia being called the Body, though, so I was confused.

[Angleter]

I unfortunately have to agree that the Pope hasn't really changed much, but I am optimistic that he represents a good step. A major issue of the Church is that it is gerontocratic, which means it is inevitably somewhat "behind the times", but Pope Francis' behaviour and beliefs are a good step - the change in the Church is going to be slow, slower than many people are willing to tolerate, but it is going to happen if Francis is any indication.

It might be interesting to see what a Jesuit priest currently in his twenties (or maybe even a Nun) might see in the world, and what he/she might do fifty years from now as Pope.

Young priests tend to be much more traditional than elderly ones, whose heyday was in the '60s and '70s, when Catholic liberalism was at its apogee.

Taking France as a case study, it's believed that around one third of seminarians right now are at least friendly to the traditional form of the Mass (which basically makes their doctrinal orthodoxy a given). Note how the number of seminarians is highest in the Diocese of Paris (70), which has massive advantages in terms of number of Catholics and location, but is followed by the small, rural diocese of Frejus-Toulon (58), whose tradition-friendly bishop is known for allowing seminarians to choose to be ordained according to the traditional rite, if they so wish. In third place, in terms of number of French seminarians, would be the Swiss seminary (by far the largest seminary in Switzerland) of the SSPX, a traditionalist group in a weird sort of semi-schism with Rome. There were 49 Frenchmen there at the last count. Indeed, an SSPX splinter group in full communion with Rome, the FSSP, has the largest seminary in Germany.

NB: Traditionalist Catholics, priests and laity alike, aren't really OK with murder, either.

[Eleanor Ritas]

It might be interesting to see how the Swiss guard would react, if they harbored many traditionalists among their ranks and saw my imaginary Super Reforming Pope Francis with Kung Fu Socialist Grip as a threat to the office of the Papacy (and thus their own positions), would they collaborate in his ouster or even death?

Rather like Praetorians might react to an Emperor who sought to restore the Republic?

I know they swear fealty to the Pope but if irked enough... who knows. Although a good step, if Pope Francis were to adopt such an unprecedented stance, traditionalists could be bothered enough to attempt to have him killed. And since, AFAIK, papal autopsies aren't performed... speculating, I know.

Well, the thread itself is so speculative that you're hardly out of bounds.

Secret Swiss Guard Assassination attempt on the Pope:

Pope Francis: I'm glad to be in this place "Ferguson, Missouri", but why am I wearing blackface?

Swiss Guard: It's tradition here. Okay, just take this silver cross and run up to the policeman over there.

Pope Francis: Why?

Swiss Guard: To bless him. Just keep your hands up in prayer, and hold the cross by the horizontal side, like this.

Pope Francis: Do I have to run?

Swiss Guard: Yes, rush up to him as fast as you can. It's a sign of eagerness for friendship here.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

I'm playing on these historical rumors: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucrezia_Borgia#Rumours

Oh, of course. I'd never heard of Lucrezia being called the Body, though, so I was confused.

Neither have I.

Anyway, precedent. In 964 AD, Pope John XII was deposed by Synod. Pope Benedict IX was also deposed by Synod in 1046, and excommunicated in 1049.

[Antirome]

It might be interesting to see what a Jesuit priest currently in his twenties (or maybe even a Nun) might see in the world, and what he/she might do fifty years from now as Pope.

Young priests tend to be much more traditional than elderly ones, whose heyday was in the '60s and '70s, when Catholic liberalism was at its apogee.

Taking France as a case study, it's believed that around one third of seminarians right now are at least friendly to the traditional form of the Mass (which basically makes their doctrinal orthodoxy a given). Note how the number of seminarians is highest in the Diocese of Paris (70), which has massive advantages in terms of number of Catholics and location, but is followed by the small, rural diocese of Frejus-Toulon (58), whose tradition-friendly bishop is known for allowing seminarians to choose to be ordained according to the traditional rite, if they so wish. In third place, in terms of number of French seminarians, would be the Swiss seminary (by far the largest seminary in Switzerland) of the SSPX, a traditionalist group in a weird sort of semi-schism with Rome. There were 49 Frenchmen there at the last count. Indeed, an SSPX splinter group in full communion with Rome, the FSSP, has the largest seminary in Germany.

I wonder what's causing the conservatisation of the younger clergy.

[Germanic Templars]

And the last several Popes have been outspoken about helping the poor, not that that's actually helped the poor.

I don't follow any faith, but in my opinion, Pope Francis may be the best Pope in a very long time.

In my book, he is passing Blessed John Paul II (And he was a good Pope in my book).

[Eleanor Ritas]

I'm playing on these historical rumors: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucrezia_Borgia#Rumours

Oh, of course. I'd never heard of Lucrezia being called the Body, though, so I was confused.

That was my fault, I don't think she was ever really called that.

[Eleanor Ritas]

It might be interesting to see what a Jesuit priest currently in his twenties (or maybe even a Nun) might see in the world, and what he/she might do fifty years from now as Pope.

Young priests tend to be much more traditional than elderly ones, whose heyday was in the '60s and '70s, when Catholic liberalism was at its apogee.

Taking France as a case study, it's believed that around one third of seminarians right now are at least friendly to the traditional form of the Mass (which basically makes their doctrinal orthodoxy a given). Note how the number of seminarians is highest in the Diocese of Paris (70), which has massive advantages in terms of number of Catholics and location, but is followed by the small, rural diocese of Frejus-Toulon (58), whose tradition-friendly bishop is known for allowing seminarians to choose to be ordained according to the traditional rite, if they so wish. In third place, in terms of number of French seminarians, would be the Swiss seminary (by far the largest seminary in Switzerland) of the SSPX, a traditionalist group in a weird sort of semi-schism with Rome. There were 49 Frenchmen there at the last count. Indeed, an SSPX splinter group in full communion with Rome, the FSSP, has the largest seminary in Germany.

NB: Traditionalist Catholics, priests and laity alike, aren't really OK with murder, either.

So Catholic liberalism underwent a peak near the middle of the twentieth century and has been declining since?

Hmm...doesn't bode well for my Super Reformer Francis concept. Maybe he's just talk, trying to be cool to chill out financial troubles in the church and cushion the kiddy bumfucking stuff.

[Corumm]

Darth Ratzinger lurks in the shadows, plotting the revenge of the Sith.

[Eleanor Ritas]

Darth Ratzinger lurks in the shadows, plotting the revenge of the Sith.

Something something something Jesus.

Something something something complete!

[Eleanor Ritas]

Young priests tend to be much more traditional than elderly ones, whose heyday was in the '60s and '70s, when Catholic liberalism was at its apogee.

Taking France as a case study, it's believed that around one third of seminarians right now are at least friendly to the traditional form of the Mass (which basically makes their doctrinal orthodoxy a given). Note how the number of seminarians is highest in the Diocese of Paris (70), which has massive advantages in terms of number of Catholics and location, but is followed by the small, rural diocese of Frejus-Toulon (58), whose tradition-friendly bishop is known for allowing seminarians to choose to be ordained according to the traditional rite, if they so wish. In third place, in terms of number of French seminarians, would be the Swiss seminary (by far the largest seminary in Switzerland) of the SSPX, a traditionalist group in a weird sort of semi-schism with Rome. There were 49 Frenchmen there at the last count. Indeed, an SSPX splinter group in full communion with Rome, the FSSP, has the largest seminary in Germany.

I wonder what's causing the conservatisation of the younger clergy.

Somebody left a couple Ann Coulter books in the locker room.

[Antirome]

Somebody left a couple Ann Coulter books in the locker room.

Locker room?

Ah, yes, I forgot about the clerical mandate to pump iron.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Somebody left a couple Ann Coulter books in the locker room.

Locker room?

Ah, yes, I forgot about the clerical mandate to pump iron.

Must. Not. Post. What. Came. To. Mind.

[Eleanor Ritas]

Somebody left a couple Ann Coulter books in the locker room.

Locker room?

Ah, yes, I forgot about the clerical mandate to pump iron.

I think sometimes they just play basketball.

[Antirome]

Locker room?

Ah, yes, I forgot about the clerical mandate to pump iron.

Must. Not. Post. What. Came. To. Mind.

It seems I continuously put you in these situations, I think it might be a curse of mine.

[Angleter]

Young priests tend to be much more traditional than elderly ones, whose heyday was in the '60s and '70s, when Catholic liberalism was at its apogee.

Taking France as a case study, it's believed that around one third of seminarians right now are at least friendly to the traditional form of the Mass (which basically makes their doctrinal orthodoxy a given). Note how the number of seminarians is highest in the Diocese of Paris (70), which has massive advantages in terms of number of Catholics and location, but is followed by the small, rural diocese of Frejus-Toulon (58), whose tradition-friendly bishop is known for allowing seminarians to choose to be ordained according to the traditional rite, if they so wish. In third place, in terms of number of French seminarians, would be the Swiss seminary (by far the largest seminary in Switzerland) of the SSPX, a traditionalist group in a weird sort of semi-schism with Rome. There were 49 Frenchmen there at the last count. Indeed, an SSPX splinter group in full communion with Rome, the FSSP, has the largest seminary in Germany.

I wonder what's causing the conservatisation of the younger clergy.

The question's more of why there are so many 'conservatives', and especially traditionalists, going for the priesthood in the first place. And I think the answer has a lot to do with traditionalist and conservative Catholic families being more devout, and more interested in catechising their children. When one's raised with a good understanding of the (orthodox) Catholic faith, and has gone to Mass pretty much every Sunday (and Holy Day of Obligation) all their life, because that's what the Catholic faith teaches that you should do, one's naturally more likely in a way to be interested in the priesthood. Or monasticism (there's a long-running to-do between the Vatican and an ultra-liberal group of American nuns called the LCWR - do a Google Image search for them and you'll see how few, if any, young nuns there are in their ranks).

There are other specific things for traditional Catholics. Traditional Catholicism is first and foremost a liturgical movement - its followers either prefer pre-1970 worship, or wish to reform post-1970 worship to incorporate elements of pre-1970 worship, because they appreciate the beauty and reverence of traditional practice, as well as its distinctiveness, its sheer Catholicity. They have a particularly strong sense, therefore, of (non-ethnic) Catholic identity, and of the importance of Mass and the priesthood, so that can also help foster vocations too.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Must. Not. Post. What. Came. To. Mind.

It seems I continuously put you in these situations, I think it might be a curse of mine.

It's my own fault, really.

[Olavoland]

All Popes have been "pro-poor", supposedly, but Frank will never "come out" as pro-LGBT rights, mainly because he's not pro-LGBT rights.