Viktor Orbán: "The age of liberal democracy is over"

[Indira]

Yeah, and he is not even the worst of some in Hungary (no offence intended).

Jobbik are the real nasty ones over there, and are equivalent of UKIP/Golden Dawn/etc

UKIP aren't even in the same league. I think you mean the BNP/EDL etc

[Geilinor]

“I don’t think that our European Union membership precludes us from building an illiberal new state based on national foundations."

Uh, yeah it pretty much does.

The EU should withdraw all funding from Hungary and threaten to kick it out of Orban ever tries this.

[The Sotoan Union]

I don't see why the United States, Europe, and the many other republics of the world can't remain competitive. I mean India is a democracy and they are rising fairly rapidly.

India is rising from a fairly low level of competitiveness.

Into a higher level of competitiveness. The fact that it can rise to compete with such nations as Turkey and China really spits in the face of this guy's argument.

[Syndicapolis]

I'm all for abandoning liberal pseudo-democracy, but if you replace it with nationalist elitist bullshit and cite China - a brutal state capitalist dictatorship reminiscent of Airstrip One - as an example to follow, then...well.

[Allet Klar Chefs]

I don't see why the United States, Europe, and the many other republics of the world can't remain competitive.

Because we refuse to pay third-world workers the same as we want to live on here, and it's not like the people in South-East Asia are actually stupider than us, so we're just paving the way for our own poverty when the Malaysians stop hiring British architects as a matter of prestige, and so on.

[Arglorand]

Or, in other words, Fidesz becomes Jobbik Lite.

[The Sotoan Union]

I don't see why the United States, Europe, and the many other republics of the world can't remain competitive.

Because we refuse to pay third-world workers the same as we want to live on here, and it's not like the people in South-East Asia are actually stupider than us, so we're just paving the way for our own poverty when the Malaysians stop hiring British architects as a matter of prestige, and so on.

A country's wealth has little to do with its government. China was once the dirt poor country that everyone outsourced factories too. Now it is becoming progressively richer. But these are economic issues, not political issues.

[Arglorand]

“I don’t think that our European Union membership precludes us from building an illiberal new state based on national foundations."

Uh, yeah it pretty much does.

The EU should withdraw all funding from Hungary and threaten to kick it out of Orban ever tries this.

Unfortunately, it could be claimed that he already is, in fact, trying this.

[Allet Klar Chefs]

A country's wealth has little to do with its government... these are economic issues, not political issues.

The two are completely related.

[The Sotoan Union]

A country's wealth has little to do with its government... these are economic issues, not political issues.

The two are completely related.

But that's not what this dude's speech is about. He is saying that simply because a republic is a republic, it can't remain competitive.

[Geilinor]

The two are completely related.

But that's not what this dude's speech is about. He is saying that simply because a republic is a republic, it can't remain competitive.

That's not what he said. He said he wanted to build an "illiberal new state" in Hungary while remaining an EU member.

[The Sotoan Union]

But that's not what this dude's speech is about. He is saying that simply because a republic is a republic, it can't remain competitive.

That's not what he said. He said he wanted to build an "illiberal new state" in Hungary while remaining an EU member.

He also said that republics cannot remain competitive.

[Arglorand]

That's not what he said. He said he wanted to build an "illiberal new state" in Hungary while remaining an EU member.

He also said that republics cannot remain competitive.

Liberal democracies, not republics.

Liberal democracies also include places like the UK, which aren't republics.

[Greater Mackonia]

Ironic that this is a man who's party were originally one of the harbingers of the liberal democratic order.

On his actual views I would say they are accurate insofar as an indicator that the ideological hegemony of liberal democracy is threatened, not that it ever had practical dominance, but most at least paid lip service to its ideals.

I personally despise the liberal democratic order intent on mediocrity and built on hypocrisy, but I am no greater supporter of the inane nationalist conservatism preached by this fellow. You see Putin only seems to preach social conservatism to gain the votes for his own ends, that is a noble purpose, to actually espouse social conservatism as a valid belief is idiocy. In my own eyes of course.

[Wisconsin9]

He said, less than thirty years after the collapse of a number of dictatorships.

[Geilinor]

That's not what he said. He said he wanted to build an "illiberal new state" in Hungary while remaining an EU member.

He also said that republics cannot remain competitive.

"Republics can't remain competitive" is a false statement. The UK is a monarchy, but does that mean it will always remain competitive? India is a republic, does that mean its economy will stop growing?

[The Sotoan Union]

He also said that republics cannot remain competitive.

"Republics can't remain competitive" is a false statement. The UK is a monarchy, but does that mean it will always remain competitive? India is a republic, does that mean its economy will stop growing?

But that's literally what he said. "Liberal democracies" to be more specific.

[The Sotoan Union]

He also said that republics cannot remain competitive.

Liberal democracies, not republics.

Liberal democracies also include places like the UK, which aren't republics.

When the alternative is an illiberal state, I would put them in the same bubble on the venn diagram.

[Geilinor]

"Republics can't remain competitive" is a false statement. The UK is a monarchy, but does that mean it will always remain competitive? India is a republic, does that mean its economy will stop growing?

But that's literally what he said. "Liberal democracies" to be more specific.

What he said isn't correct.

[The Sotoan Union]

But that's literally what he said. "Liberal democracies" to be more specific.

What he said isn't correct.

Which is what I think. I even pointed to India as an example of a competitive democracy earlier in this thread.

[Geilinor]

What he said isn't correct.

Which is what I think. I even pointed to India as an example of a competitive democracy earlier in this thread.

I'm saying that his remarks want farther than "liberal democracies can't remain competitive". He implied that he wanted to create an "illiberal state" and praised China and Russia.

[72o]

This is why I don't want backward countries that haven't fully internalized liberal democratic values to join the EU, countries like serbia.

[Wind in the Willows]

He's right.

[Allet Klar Chefs]

But that's not what this dude's speech is about.

Well, yes it kind of is.

"Liberal democracy" is about a kind of counterrevolutionary welfare and political system backing up near-unrestrained capitalism. That's what it's become since the 1990s.

"Illiberal states" in Russia and China alike strip out the welfare aspect, and leave the capitalism mostly untouched, with a big, openly repressive government to fuck you up if you get out of line. They make the economy 'competitive' in that they do not tolerate strike action, and keep wages low for your average citizen.

[Arglorand]

You see Putin only seems to preach social conservatism to gain the votes for his own ends, that is a noble purpose, to actually espouse social conservatism as a valid belief is idiocy. In my own eyes of course.

So wait, wait, wait.

According to you, it's a noble purpose to lie about your beliefs and trick the population into following you?

Hah, no. Plainly no.