SWAT flashbang versus an infants face

[Viritica]

Yes, I know it's alive.

Also, not every house is conductive to stick a mirror through. You don't know what the layout of the house was.

I don't, but I know they were able to get a flashbang into it, so I'm open to the possibility instead of convinced that the police were right because they're the police.

---

During which time, anyone in the house with access to a gun is taking advantage of that fact.

So do it quickly.

And while they're sticking their little camera in the suspects could be flushing the drugs down the toilet or getting their weapons ready.

Your powers of perception suck.

[Rosov]

Some of you are acting like the SWAT's sole purpose was to harm the child. You guys are absurd.
I think the department should pay for the child's injuries, but the whole thing was an accident and I don't believe anyone needs to be dismissed or fired.

[Scomagia]

They would know, minimum, that the front room was clear. Why are you undervaluing such information?

Because it wouldn't change the situation they would have to deal with. No armed methers in the front hall =/= no armed methers within four seconds distance of turning the front hall into a real life version of one of those Japanese bullet hell shooter games.

Also, do you really think that if they'd gotten into a shootout with the methers, the kid wouldn't have been caught in the crossfire? Babies don't tend to recover from bullet holes.

Knowing the conditions of the room you're about to breach doesn't matter?

[Scomagia]

Some of you are acting like the SWAT's sole purpose was to harm the child. You guys are absurd.
I think the department should pay for the child's injuries, but the whole thing was an accident and I don't believe anyone needs to be dismissed or fired.

No one has been acting like that for some time.

[Ifreann]

SWAT stands for Special Weapons and Tactics, so you're goddamn right I expect them to take their time and slide a camera under the door. If it's one of their fucking tools they'd better use it.

Yeah, and while they're doing that the suspects could be flushing the drugs down the toilet, getting their weapons ready, or anything of the like.

Seriously, they can't plan for every eventuality.

Strange thing to say, when people have been claiming that this use of a flashbang was SOP. So they did have a plan for what to do if they couldn't get in the door. It just didn't include finding out what's there before throwing in a flashbang.

[Paddy O Fernature]

>Throwing flashbang grenade
>Peeking around corner with millimeter sized camera or centimeter wide mirror...in the dark.

Which is more likely to alert occupants of a building to your presence?

You obviously know little about trained gunmen.

A trained gunman will notice a very small camera (it won't be millimeter sized, believe me).

A flashbang will be noticed as well, but it will leave the enemy incapacitated.

There was a door. Imagine there is no toddler blocking it, and they open it, and the gunmen start laying down suppressive fire. Now wtf do the officers do? Can't even blindfire or blindly toss a grenade, at the risk of losing a hand or even a whole arm.

Egress, re-evaluate, and call in the negotiator.

[Occupied Deutschland]

>Throwing flashbang grenade
>Peeking around corner with millimeter sized camera or centimeter wide mirror...in the dark.

Which is more likely to alert occupants of a building to your presence?

You obviously know little about trained gunmen.

A trained gunman will notice a very small camera (it won't be millimeter sized, believe me)....

Except it will be.

Fucking cameras, dawg. How big are they?

[Twilight Imperium]

Because it wouldn't change the situation they would have to deal with. No armed methers in the front hall =/= no armed methers within four seconds distance of turning the front hall into a real life version of one of those Japanese bullet hell shooter games.

Also, do you really think that if they'd gotten into a shootout with the methers, the kid wouldn't have been caught in the crossfire? Babies don't tend to recover from bullet holes.

Knowing the conditions of the room you're about to breach doesn't matter?

Not enough to change the outcome of the situation, given the tools at hand. I'm not saying it would be 100% useless, just that I'm having trouble imagining it paying off as well as you seem to be.

[Scomagia]

Then it's even fucking better that they used the fiber optic because they know the room has potential hostiles.

That's not a red zone is/means.

A red zone is anything you physically cannot see behind and visually clear. So from under a door perspective... pretty much everything in said room would generate a red zone.

What's your point? Are you arguing that fiber optics are completely useless?

[Arkinesia]

More like nobody bothered to gather additional intelligence aside from tactical intelligence. There wasn't much forethought in this raid, not a lot of information gathering on what was going on in the house or who was living there.

Do you have access to the police records for this raid, which detail what was and wasn't gathered Intel wise? If so, id absolutely love to see them.

The HCSO has not been forthcoming with them. Which concerns me.

[Viritica]

Yeah, and while they're doing that the suspects could be flushing the drugs down the toilet, getting their weapons ready, or anything of the like.

Seriously, they can't plan for every eventuality.

Strange thing to say, when people have been claiming that this use of a flashbang was SOP. So they did have a plan for what to do if they couldn't get in the door. It just didn't include finding out what's there before throwing in a flashbang.

None of the information they had suggested there was a child in there. They did, however, have information suggesting that there were armed men inside.

So, yeah. Again, your powers of perception suck.

[Rosov]

Some of you are acting like the SWAT's sole purpose was to harm the child. You guys are absurd.
I think the department should pay for the child's injuries, but the whole thing was an accident and I don't believe anyone needs to be dismissed or fired.

No one has been acting like that for some time.

Ohh good. I didn't read past around page 8 or something.

[Ifreann]

I don't, but I know they were able to get a flashbang into it, so I'm open to the possibility instead of convinced that the police were right because they're the police.

---

So do it quickly.

And while they're sticking their little camera in the suspects could be flushing the drugs down the toilet or getting their weapons ready.

Yes, they could be. That doesn't mean the police should abandon all concern for their own lives and the lives of any innocent bystanders.

Your powers of perception suck.

Definitely one of the stranger insults I've heard...

[Paddy O Fernature]

That's not a red zone is/means.

A red zone is anything you physically cannot see behind and visually clear. So from under a door perspective... pretty much everything in said room would generate a red zone.

What's your point? Are you arguing that fiber optics are completely useless?

Like any tool, they absolutely can be in certain situations, as even on a good day they are not a magic cure all.

[Scomagia]

Knowing the conditions of the room you're about to breach doesn't matter?

Not enough to change the outcome of the situation, given the tools at hand. I'm not saying it would be 100% useless, just that I'm having trouble imagining it paying off as well as you seem to be.

I never said that it would make everything cupcakes and rainbows, merely that having such knowledge is much better than not having it.

[Scomagia]

What's your point? Are you arguing that fiber optics are completely useless?

Like any tool, they absolutely can be in certain situations, as even on a good day they are not a magic cure all.

Boy, it's a good thing I never claimed they were.

[Viritica]

And while they're sticking their little camera in the suspects could be flushing the drugs down the toilet or getting their weapons ready.

Yes, they could be. That doesn't mean the police should abandon all concern for their own lives and the lives of any innocent bystanders.

Your powers of perception suck.

Definitely one of the stranger insults I've heard...

They didn't abandon concern. They threw a flashbang inside. Flashbangs are *gasp* nonlethal.

[Occupied Deutschland]

Strange thing to say, when people have been claiming that this use of a flashbang was SOP. So they did have a plan for what to do if they couldn't get in the door. It just didn't include finding out what's there before throwing in a flashbang.

None of the information they had suggested there was a child in there. They did, however, have information suggesting that there were armed men inside.

So, yeah. Again, your powers of perception suck.

Indeed.

Of course, it would seem that information was rather bad since there weren't actually armed men there. Or drugs...Or the person they were looking for.

In fact, they seem to have depended on a pretty unreliable informant.

[Arkinesia]

Strange thing to say, when people have been claiming that this use of a flashbang was SOP. So they did have a plan for what to do if they couldn't get in the door. It just didn't include finding out what's there before throwing in a flashbang.

None of the information they had suggested there was a child in there. They did, however, have information suggesting that there were armed men inside.

So, yeah. Again, your powers of perception suck.

Well. None of the information except the minivan in the driveway.

[Camicon]

Yes, they could be. That doesn't mean the police should abandon all concern for their own lives and the lives of any innocent bystanders.


Definitely one of the stranger insults I've heard...

They didn't abandon concern. They threw a flashbang inside. Flashbangs are *gasp* nonlethal.

Less-lethal.

[Paddy O Fernature]

Like any tool, they absolutely can be in certain situations, as even on a good day they are not a magic cure all.

Boy, it's a good thing I never claimed they were.

Goat, it's a good thing I never said you did.

[Camicon]

None of the information they had suggested there was a child in there. They did, however, have information suggesting that there were armed men inside.

So, yeah. Again, your powers of perception suck.

Well. None of the information except the minivan in the driveway.

Care to point out where you're getting that information from?

[Scomagia]

Strange thing to say, when people have been claiming that this use of a flashbang was SOP. So they did have a plan for what to do if they couldn't get in the door. It just didn't include finding out what's there before throwing in a flashbang.

None of the information they had suggested there was a child in there. They did, however, have information suggesting that there were armed men inside.

So, yeah. Again, your powers of perception suck.

Had they spent more time gathering intelligence, they likely would have discovered the existence of the child.

[Scomagia]

Well. None of the information except the minivan in the driveway.

Care to point out where you're getting that information from?

I'm curious too. Sources have been asked for but not provided.

[Viritica]

None of the information they had suggested there was a child in there. They did, however, have information suggesting that there were armed men inside.

So, yeah. Again, your powers of perception suck.

Indeed.

Of course, it would seem that information was rather bad since there weren't actually armed men there. Or drugs...Or the person they were looking for.

In fact, they seem to have depended on a pretty unreliable informant.

Well, yeah. But the guy did purchase drugs from the place. So...