Your Nations Warships, MKII

[The Soodean Imperium]

A WW2 ship I am assuming?

No it is a Modern Warship, It has missile, and torpedo silos, but I have yet too come up with the information for those specs. And the market version lacks them. I am planning on refitting it into a PMT warship as it is suppose too be, but imagine refitting all of those warship the cost would be enormous -.-

If this is indeed for the modern era, I highly suggest you think about what this ship is meant to achieve and whether there's a better way of achieving that. Modern anti-ship missiles can get anywhere between two and ten times the range of mid-size artillery guns, meaning that in a ship-to-ship engagement with a parity opponent (who has aerial detection assistance for over-the-horizon targeting) this ship will be destroyed long before it has a chance to fire its guns.

And based on where this ship's guns are placed, you won't have room to install vertical-missile-launch tubes in the bow or a helicopter landing pad in the stern. And those two features are arguably the most important weapons on a modern destroyer.

Likewise, armor on a modern warship is not very useful; ten inches all around isn't enough to stop a supersonic missile with a shaped-charge warhead, and even if it was, the explosion would still damage external features like the radar and fire directors - rendering the ship a "mission kill" because, even though it's still afloat, it can't fight.

If you are in a doctrinal situation where you do have a pressing need for potent gun firepower on a destroyer, I suggest you try something more in line with the US Navy's 8"/55cal gun programme from the 1970s.

[Zerinfriom]

No it is a Modern Warship, It has missile, and torpedo silos, but I have yet too come up with the information for those specs. And the market version lacks them. I am planning on refitting it into a PMT warship as it is suppose too be, but imagine refitting all of those warship the cost would be enormous -.-

If this is indeed for the modern era, I highly suggest you think about what this ship is meant to achieve and whether there's a better way of achieving that. Modern anti-ship missiles can get anywhere between two and ten times the range of mid-size artillery guns, meaning that in a ship-to-ship engagement with a parity opponent (who has aerial detection assistance for over-the-horizon targeting) this ship will be destroyed long before it has a chance to fire its guns.

And based on where this ship's guns are placed, you won't have room to install vertical-missile-launch tubes in the bow or a helicopter landing pad in the stern. And those two features are arguably the most important weapons on a modern destroyer.

Likewise, armor on a modern warship is not very useful; ten inches all around isn't enough to stop a supersonic missile with a shaped-charge warhead, and even if it was, the explosion would still damage external features like the radar and fire directors - rendering the ship a "mission kill" because, even though it's still afloat, it can't fight.

If you are in a doctrinal situation where you do have a pressing need for potent gun firepower on a destroyer, I suggest you try something more in line with the US Navy's 8"/55cal gun programme from the 1970s.

I see, I will be refitting the design with 8 inch cannons on the medium turrets too replace the 6 inch ones. But one of the chief tactics for my navy is too fire a micro emp at the enemy fleet where it only effects electronics at up too 5-15 km then move in with our main cannons and open fire Battleship era style, but it has yet too be implemented into an actual battle, since I am working out the kinks in the strategy. But I can see where you are coming from.

[Stahn]

Micro EMP's don't have any effect on Stahnese warships.

[Zerinfriom]

Well my military might never fight your ships XP

[The Soodean Imperium]

Noth-class Missile Boat.

(Image)

(Image)

Type: Surface effect warship.
Speed:
In rough sea: 40 knots
In calm sea: 55 knots
Compliment: 15
Sensors and
processing systems: classified
Armament: 4x long range anti shipping missile (classified)
16x short range anti shipping missile (classified)
1 × 75mm multi-role cannon

Currently on trial.

The sea forces of Stahn have for a long time relied on Soviet designs but as a result of high losses of the Gomhtog class missile cruiser (copy of the Kirov-class) the structure of the navy was reevaluated. The conclusion was that Stahn would be better off with a large number of capable but much smaller, cheaper and expendable ships supported by much larger support, amphibious assault and carrier vessels.

If the Noth-class will prove successfully a number of variations of this ship will be produced like a small command and control craft, an anti air variant and a submarine chaser.

Reminds me of the USSR's Bora-class guided-missile surface effect craft. Though I'm not sure the short-range anti-shipping missiles would be worthwhile - given their location, the vertical launch tubes might overlap with the location of the gun magazine, and if deep enough they could make the center of the hull deep enough that it's no longer a surface-effect craft.

Also, be aware that even when traveling at a reduced speed, such a small vessel will have a fairly low range (due to limited fuel/food/parts stores), making it better-suited for coastal defense than escort for an amphibious expeditionary force.

If this is indeed for the modern era, I highly suggest you think about what this ship is meant to achieve and whether there's a better way of achieving that. Modern anti-ship missiles can get anywhere between two and ten times the range of mid-size artillery guns, meaning that in a ship-to-ship engagement with a parity opponent (who has aerial detection assistance for over-the-horizon targeting) this ship will be destroyed long before it has a chance to fire its guns.

And based on where this ship's guns are placed, you won't have room to install vertical-missile-launch tubes in the bow or a helicopter landing pad in the stern. And those two features are arguably the most important weapons on a modern destroyer.

Likewise, armor on a modern warship is not very useful; ten inches all around isn't enough to stop a supersonic missile with a shaped-charge warhead, and even if it was, the explosion would still damage external features like the radar and fire directors - rendering the ship a "mission kill" because, even though it's still afloat, it can't fight.

If you are in a doctrinal situation where you do have a pressing need for potent gun firepower on a destroyer, I suggest you try something more in line with the US Navy's 8"/55cal gun programme from the 1970s.

I see, I will be refitting the design with 8 inch cannons on the medium turrets too replace the 6 inch ones. But one of the chief tactics for my navy is too fire a micro emp at the enemy fleet where it only effects electronics at up too 5-15 km then move in with our main cannons and open fire Battleship era style, but it has yet too be implemented into an actual battle, since I am working out the kinks in the strategy. But I can see where you are coming from.

It's worth thinking more deeply about that approach first:

1) most electronics on modern warships are almost certainly faraday-proofed against an EMP effect, and
2) if they're not, they can mostly be rebooted in the space of a few minutes.

If you do the math on this, then assuming you've disabled the enemy fleet while 330 nautical miles away (outside the range of most but not all anti-ship missiles), it will take you ten hours to close the distance at a typical full speed of 30 knots. And that's assuming the enemy fleet sits perfectly still in place instead of withdrawing.

Also: contrary to popular sci-fi literature, an EMP is not a magic silent weapon of the future; it's a temporary side-effect of a nuclear explosion.

[San-Silvacian]

All the while I'm launching 1,000km AShM from my ships and my aircraft with a 1,600km combat radius, supported by forward AWACS etc, are launching 300km range AShMs.

Well my military might never fight your ships XP

99% of all ships and military weaponry aren't effected by EMP.

[Consortium of Manchukuo]

Well my military might never fight your ships XP

Most modern navies on Nation States would design their equipment to be hard to destroy by EMP pulses. Even in our world that is the case. I don't recall if the US navy did provide resistance to EMP pulses, but I'm almost certain they did even if I haven't read about it - they have overpressure systems on their destroyers and aircraft carriers, and have definitely come up with appropriate defenses for dealing with the threat of fighting in a nuclear war. The Soviets very much did consider how to deal with EMP pulses and other disruptions - one reason why it took so long for them to transfer away from vacuum tubes is because vacuum tubes have higher resistance to EMP pulses than transistors and other more modern technology.

So if you're basing your navy on being capable of destroying the enemy's capability to resist with an EMP strike, and then moving into close range for guns... well, even if you do manage to get an EMP off over the enemy, I don't think they would just be left drifting in the water. They probably would lose some of their radars and the like, at least temporarily, but not catastrophic - and as Soodean points out, they can be rebooted. Also it assumes that the enemy would just concentrate their entire fleet in one location. They could easily disperse out across a wide area. Furthermore it assumes that you can successfully get an EMP pulse above their fleet, when it appears that your fleet concentrates heavily on the gun firepower role - how do you know that the enemy wouldn't be capable of shooting down a few EMP generating missiles with their own defensive weaponry? And if you're in range and know where their fleet is and can get off weapons to attempt to neutralize them, they can do the same to you, and probably much more effectively since they're optimized to fight at long range with missiles if you have to attempt to neutralize them and close the range.

[Zerinfriom]

Like I said I am working out the kinks.

[Stahn]

Noth-class Missile Boat.

(Image)

(Image)

Type: Surface effect warship.
Speed:
In rough sea: 40 knots
In calm sea: 55 knots
Compliment: 15
Sensors and
processing systems: classified
Armament: 4x long range anti shipping missile (classified)
16x short range anti shipping missile (classified)
1 × 75mm multi-role cannon

Currently on trial.

The sea forces of Stahn have for a long time relied on Soviet designs but as a result of high losses of the Gomhtog class missile cruiser (copy of the Kirov-class) the structure of the navy was reevaluated. The conclusion was that Stahn would be better off with a large number of capable but much smaller, cheaper and expendable ships supported by much larger support, amphibious assault and carrier vessels.

If the Noth-class will prove successfully a number of variations of this ship will be produced like a small command and control craft, an anti air variant and a submarine chaser.

Reminds me of the USSR's Bora-class guided-missile surface effect craft. Though I'm not sure the short-range anti-shipping missiles would be worthwhile - given their location, the vertical launch tubes might overlap with the location of the gun magazine, and if deep enough they could make the center of the hull deep enough that it's no longer a surface-effect craft.

Also, be aware that even when traveling at a reduced speed, such a small vessel will have a fairly low range (due to limited fuel/food/parts stores), making it better-suited for coastal defense than escort for an amphibious expeditionary force.

It looks very much like the Skjold, which is what I based it on. How the short range missiles are reloaded is classified but I can assure you the gun magazine is not in the way and it also is not a problem with surface effect.

This version is a ship killer. It can provide some cover for amphibious assaults with its gun but that is not what it is designed for. This ship is a specialised vessel. The basic hull will be used for several tasks like is mentioned. I will probably use some basic but larger missile ship for coastal bombartments. For now I still have the soviet vessels but eventually I hope to have a navy with only Stahnese ships.

[Consortium of Manchukuo]

Like I said I am working out the kinks.

If nobody in an actual military has thought of it, proposed it, or used it, then it needs to be considered with some caution. Surely if it was a fool-proof idea at least some navy would try to use it? For a third world navy it would doubtless seem to be a good suggestion - you finally have a way to neutralize vastly superior entire enemy fleets and destroy them! But nobody has even proposed the idea, much less attempted to put it into practice.

[The Soodean Imperium]

Like I said I am working out the kinks.

Protip: (and this is honest advice here)

You don't need to develop an entire school of naval strategy from the ground up. The United States and the Soviet Union spent the entire Cold War developing ways to defeat one another's fleets, as well as ways to prevent their own fleets from being defeated, in a cycle of evolution that went on for decades. And while some of the specifics are still largely classified (i.e., submarine sonar ranges, etc), a lot of general information is readily available.

So here's my suggestion to you, and really to anyone planning to build their naval doctrine for NS. Don't start out with WWII tactics, wild ideas, or video-game sequences and then painstakingly adapt them to the harsh realities of the modern day. Start with real-life naval tactics and gently adapt them to your nation's situation. Even if it just means skimming the Wikipedia page on Carrier Battle Group tactics and the other pages it links to. You'll save yourself a lot of time, a lot of trouble, and a lot of embarrassment.

[Rhinocera]

Would a larger EMP (IE. caused by nuclear warhead) be able to disable an enemy fleet for an extended period of time? While smaller EMP weapons would only be an agitating, I wonder if a large EMP could be effective?

[Consortium of Manchukuo]

http://navalresources.weebly.com

The one site Questers has in their sig is rather useful as well.

[Korva]

What is the the role of the Oliver Hazard Perry-class? It seems they were made for air defense but at the present they don't even (at least for the USN) carry missiles.

[Zerinfriom]

Alright I will be going, and I will be back with the updated design. thank you.

[Stahn]

Would a larger EMP (IE. caused by nuclear warhead) be able to disable an enemy fleet for an extended period of time? While smaller EMP weapons would only be an agitating, I wonder if a large EMP could be effective?

From what I understood there was quite a debate about the USN's vessels vulnerability to EMP's. I understand they neglected that threat for a long time.

I don't remember where I've read it but if you are interested, I am sure you can find it on the web.

[San-Silvacian]

Would a larger EMP (IE. caused by nuclear warhead) be able to disable an enemy fleet for an extended period of time? While smaller EMP weapons would only be an agitating, I wonder if a large EMP could be effective?

It might disable some systems, however there are systems that wouldn't even shut off, and other systems would take seconds to minutes to reboot.

Protip most self-defense systems wouldn't even shut off.

What is the the role of the Oliver Hazard Perry-class? It seems they were made for air defense but at the present they don't even (at least for the USN) carry missiles.

Anti-submarine now, as all the cool kids think submarines are the key to fighting carriers now.

[Macedonian Grand Empire]

Would a larger EMP (IE. caused by nuclear warhead) be able to disable an enemy fleet for an extended period of time? While smaller EMP weapons would only be an agitating, I wonder if a large EMP could be effective?

No. Most ships have their main systems shielded from EMP blasts. Same goes with most things the military has including tanks.

[Stahn]

What is the the role of the Oliver Hazard Perry-class? It seems they were made for air defense but at the present they don't even (at least for the USN) carry missiles.

to protect amphibious landing forces, supply and replenishment groups, and merchant convoys from submarines

[San-Silvacian]

It was a cheap air defense/anti-submarine frigate to protect high-value stuff were the attrition rates would be high, instead of keeping offensive ships like ABs and Ticos with the carriers.

[The Soodean Imperium]

All this talk of obsolescent warships reminded me to post something of my own:


Skopa-Class Attack Frigate

Specifications:
- First Commissioned: 1974
- Length: 104 meters overall, 99.6 meters waterline
- Draft: 4.6 meters
- Standard displacement: 1,675 tonnes
- Complement: 22 officers, 147 enlisted
- Propulsion: CODOG, 2 "cruise" diesel engines and 2 "sprint" gas turbines
- Maximum speed: 32 knots
- Traveling range: 3500 nautical miles (6,482 kilometers) at 14 knots

Armament:
- 6x P-15 light anti-ship missile
- 2x Osa SAM twin-arm launcher (40 missiles carried)
- 2x 76.2mm dual-purpose gun
- 4x AK-630 gun CIWS

Design:
Shortly after regaining its independence in 1964, the Democratic People's Republic of Menghe (predecessor regime to today's Soodean Imperium) faced fears that an enemy invasion by sea would again threaten the nation with hostile occupation. In addition to building up conventional forces, they also began work on a larger and more powerful navy that would serve to head off any invasion fleet before it could arrive at the shore. At first, conservative elements in Naval High Command downplayed the importance of anti-ship missiles, which were at the time still entering the testing stage in other world navies. Treating these new weapons as a supporting tool rather than a front-line weapon, and acting on the cultural assumption that two fleets which had exhausted their missiles would close for a gun battle to finish the engagement, High Command instead constructed a series of gun-armed "Heavy Destroyers" which would be tasked with harassing enemy surface-action groups and making head-on assaults on troop transport formations.

As the years passed, however, this lack of faith in missile warfare quickly proved to be misplaced. News of the successful employment of missile-armed warships elsewhere in the world led to growing fears that the newly rebuilt Menghean Navy would not be effective in a surface engagement. In particular, it was noted that while Coastal Defense units had large numbers of Soviet-designed Osa missile boats, fleets operating further from home would have no dedicated short-range AShM assets. This led to an urgent requirement for an "attack frigate" armed with P-15 anti-ship missiles, to support the Heavy Destroyers until they could close with the enemy. The resulting vessel resembled a destroyer of the Second World War, but featured trainable AShM launchers in the place of torpedo tubes. It was also armed with the "Osa M" ship-based SAM launcher for defense against aircraft, and four AK-630 multi-barreled cannons for point defense. An interesting feature was the installation of large mine rails running from the stern up to the foredeck, seen here only partly loaded; given Menghe's overall strategic situation, it was expected that destroyers, frigates, and former cargo vessels would take part in a major effort to mine the main approaches to the country in the event of a war.

The new design, named "Skopa" (Osprey), was built in large numbers in the 1970s, but soon proved to be little more than a stopgap measure. Its P-15 missiles had a fairly poor range, and were extremely vulnerable to jamming and countermeasures. This proved to be a growing point of strain with the Soviet Union, which refused to provide updated P-15 seekers or P-120 "Malakhit" anti-ship missiles. The DPR Menghe Naval Design Bureau made several attempts to design improved anti-ship missiles of its own, and did succeed in creating a P-15 upgrade with extended range and improved ECM resistance, but by the early 1980s there was serious discussion of trying to acquire Exocet missiles for Skopas and light missile craft.

After the military coup that overthrew the Democratic People's Republic in 1987 and installed today's Soodean regime, the obsolescent Skopa frigates were gradually phased out of service in favor of dedicated missile-armed destroyers. Some ships were refitted with Kh-35 anti-ship missiles for use as a forward screen against corvettes and frigates which did not merit the use of heavier AShM assets, while others were refitted with land-attack cruise missiles for use as standoff support craft for amphibious landings. As of 2008, the remainder have been scrapped or converted into target barges.

[Stahn]

Noth-class command and control corvette.





Type: Surface effect warship.
Speed:
In rough sea: 40 knots
In calm sea: 55 knots
Compliment: 25
Sensors and
processing systems: classified
Armament: 1x 21-cell medium range AA missile system
6x 8-cell short range intercept missile system(classified)

Initially intended to be optimized for the anti-air warfare role, the Noth-class command and control corvette ended up as more of a command corvette than a AA corvette.
At the beginning stage of the development it was intended to be equipped with a gun based CIWS but because of the large size and weight of available systems that are capable of providing defense for not only the ship itself but also the ships it is intended to support, the CIWS was replaced by lightweight and compact 8-cell short range intercept missile systems instead.

Production of the craft proved significantly more expensive and complicated than was initially anticipated.

Soon to be put on a trial run. So far only 7 of these vessels have been built with full production awaiting the results of the trial.

[Padnak]

Because I'd like to be involved in more rp's over the summer and my navy is quite limited in offensive capability I'm planning on completely redeveloping it into a more offensive force while still keeping the general "feel" of my existing force. For this purpose I was planning on getting three amphibious transport docks (Most likely these) and forming three battle groups around them. My plan was to redistribute my current navy's current frigate and destroyer force into the battle groups along with most of my missile boats and landing craft while leaving my corvettes and other smaller ships for territorial defense with the support of land based aviation and AShM's.

Thoughts?

[Stahn]

Because I'd like to be involved in more rp's over the summer and my navy is quite limited in offensive capability I'm planning on completely redeveloping it into a more offensive force while still keeping the general "feel" of my existing force. For this purpose I was planning on getting three amphibious transport docks (Most likely these) and forming three battle groups around them. My plan was to redistribute my current navy's current frigate and destroyer force into the battle groups along with most of my missile boats and landing craft while leaving my corvettes and other smaller ships for territorial defense with the support of land based aviation and AShM's.

Thoughts?

The ship is a good choice although I would have gone with something smaller.

[Padnak]

Because I'd like to be involved in more rp's over the summer and my navy is quite limited in offensive capability I'm planning on completely redeveloping it into a more offensive force while still keeping the general "feel" of my existing force. For this purpose I was planning on getting three amphibious transport docks (Most likely these) and forming three battle groups around them. My plan was to redistribute my current navy's current frigate and destroyer force into the battle groups along with most of my missile boats and landing craft while leaving my corvettes and other smaller ships for territorial defense with the support of land based aviation and AShM's.

Thoughts?

The ship is a good choice although I would have gone with something smaller.

ICly Padnak has very close relations with china so I thought it would make the most sense in that regard