Advertisement
by United Marxist Nations » Sat Jun 14, 2014 11:02 am
The Kievan People wrote: United Marxist Nations: A prayer for every soul, a plan for every economy and a waifu for every man. Solid.
St. John Chrysostom wrote:A comprehended God is no God.
by Greed and Death » Sat Jun 14, 2014 11:23 am
Nazi Flower Power wrote:So I was reading some random articles on the internet, and I came across this:
http://news.yahoo.com/how-many-school-shootings-since-sandy-hook-150152463.html
Basically, some gun control advocates compiled a list of school shootings since Sandy Hook, and some conservative types who don't like the gun-control agenda are arguing that they inflated their numbers by including gang-related shootings and other cases where the shooting was personal.
The big "school shooting" news stories tend to revolve around shootings where someone took a gun into a school and started killing people at random, but I don't see why gang violence in schools should be treated differently. It's still someone bringing a gun to school and shooting people. A lot of people die needlessly as a result of gang violence, and we shouldn't be writing that off as if schools have no responsibility to prevent it from happening on school grounds.
What does NSG make of this? Does it make sense to put gang-related shootings in a separate category from other school shootings? Why do you think people are arguing that gang-related shootings are not "real" school shootings? Subconscious racism might play a role since gang violence disproportionately affects minorities, but other explanations are welcome.
by Yumyumsuppertime » Sat Jun 14, 2014 11:30 am
greed and death wrote:Nazi Flower Power wrote:So I was reading some random articles on the internet, and I came across this:
http://news.yahoo.com/how-many-school-shootings-since-sandy-hook-150152463.html
Basically, some gun control advocates compiled a list of school shootings since Sandy Hook, and some conservative types who don't like the gun-control agenda are arguing that they inflated their numbers by including gang-related shootings and other cases where the shooting was personal.
The big "school shooting" news stories tend to revolve around shootings where someone took a gun into a school and started killing people at random, but I don't see why gang violence in schools should be treated differently. It's still someone bringing a gun to school and shooting people. A lot of people die needlessly as a result of gang violence, and we shouldn't be writing that off as if schools have no responsibility to prevent it from happening on school grounds.
What does NSG make of this? Does it make sense to put gang-related shootings in a separate category from other school shootings? Why do you think people are arguing that gang-related shootings are not "real" school shootings? Subconscious racism might play a role since gang violence disproportionately affects minorities, but other explanations are welcome.
The problem they run into is statistically gun violence has been on the decline for decades, so of course they will do what every they can to inflate their numbers.
by Greed and Death » Sat Jun 14, 2014 11:32 am
Armacor wrote:Big Jim P wrote:Source: http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2008/index.html"Total
murders"
2007 14831
2008 14180
2009 13636
2010 12996
2011 12664
"Total
firearms"
2007 10086
2008 9484
2009 9146
2010 8775
2011 8583
Handguns
2007 7361
2008 6755
2009 6452
2010 6009
2011 6220
Rifles
2007 450
2008 375
2009 348
2010 358
2011 323
Shotguns
2007 455
2008 444
2009 418
2010 373
2011 356
"Firearms
(type
unknown)"
2007 1820
2008 1910
2009 1928
2010 2035
2011 1684
"Knives or
cutting
instruments"
2007 1796
2008 1897
2009 1825
2010 1704
2011 1694
"Other
weapons"
2007 2095
2008 1938
2009 1864
2010 1772
2011 1659
"Hands, fists,
feet, etc."
2007 854
2008 861
2009 801
2010 745
2011 728
Note the downward trend.
Edit: and gun sales (thus ownership) have been incresing aof late, yet there is NO corresponding increase in gun- crime or fatalities. http://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybell/2 ... s-plummet/
Using the primary sources from your articles
specifically: http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fv9311.pdf
In 2004, among state prison inmates who possessed a gun at the time of offense, 40% obtained their firearm from an illegal source.
Therefore, 60% were presumably using legally purchased firearms?
Approx 70-80% of all firearm homicides between the assessed years (93-11) were committed with a handgun. --- Does anyone use these for hunting or sport shooting??
Firearm violence accounted for about 70% of all homicides in the time period assessed.
For both fatal and nonfatal firearm victimizations, the majority of the decline occurred during the 10-year period from 1993 to 2002. -- Wasn't this during a period of higher gun controls? (Brady bill or something?)
by Geilinor » Sat Jun 14, 2014 11:35 am
by Greed and Death » Sat Jun 14, 2014 11:36 am
by Geilinor » Sat Jun 14, 2014 11:38 am
United Marxist Nations wrote:I think the Swiss model of gun-ownership is probably best.
by United Marxist Nations » Sat Jun 14, 2014 11:39 am
The Kievan People wrote: United Marxist Nations: A prayer for every soul, a plan for every economy and a waifu for every man. Solid.
St. John Chrysostom wrote:A comprehended God is no God.
by The Remnants of Kobol » Sat Jun 14, 2014 11:47 am
Big Jim P wrote:
1 Then we need to stop calling College shootings "school shootings". Yes they are at schools, but the students are adults. Another way of dishonestly inflating numbers while remaining technically correct. Like referring to 11,000 deaths as "tens of thousands"
2"Mass shootings" by the definition I have seen is four, The same standard you mentioned for mass murders in 3.
4However gang-related shootings have a different motivation, and although they are indeed a serious problem, they should not be lumped in with other "school shootings" just to inflate the numbers. That is a very dishonest to say the least. As for it being racist, why? Because the fact is that most gang members are minorities? Fact is fact. Calling it racist is nothing more than an attempt to obscure the truth.
Now on to your reply to me:
1: True, but note, as you say law-abiding citizens do commit murder, but do so rarely, and considering the number of guns (est 300 million) and the number of gun-owners (est 100 million) Shootings are already rare events overall. The anti-gun crowd refuse to acknowledge the fact that the overwhelmingly VAST majority of gun owners will not commit a crime and the overwhelmingly vast majority of guns will not be used in a crime. It doesn't fit their agenda or support the lie of "increasing gun-violence".
2:If a gun owner knowingly sell a gun to a felon, he has already committed a crime, thus does not fall under law-abiding. Not storing gun so as to make it harder to steal is stupid on many levels. It is both dangerous and a very good way to lose a fairly valuable/expensive piece of property.
Gun owners are already liable for damage caused by their guns. Once sold (or stolen) they no longer own the gun and should not be held liable for it's use or misuse.
by Yumyumsuppertime » Sat Jun 14, 2014 12:32 pm
greed and death wrote:Yumyumsuppertime wrote:
Except it's not inflation to call a shooting on school property a school shooting.
Though if you are going to count a principal's wife who is an adult, likely highly educated, and with no criminal record as someone that must be kept from guns I begin to question who you would allow to have a gun.
by Imperializt Russia » Sat Jun 14, 2014 12:35 pm
Nazi Flower Power wrote:So I was reading some random articles on the internet, and I came across this:
http://news.yahoo.com/how-many-school-shootings-since-sandy-hook-150152463.html
Basically, some gun control advocates compiled a list of school shootings since Sandy Hook, and some conservative types who don't like the gun-control agenda are arguing that they inflated their numbers by including gang-related shootings and other cases where the shooting was personal.
The big "school shooting" news stories tend to revolve around shootings where someone took a gun into a school and started killing people at random, but I don't see why gang violence in schools should be treated differently. It's still someone bringing a gun to school and shooting people. A lot of people die needlessly as a result of gang violence, and we shouldn't be writing that off as if schools have no responsibility to prevent it from happening on school grounds.
What does NSG make of this? Does it make sense to put gang-related shootings in a separate category from other school shootings? Why do you think people are arguing that gang-related shootings are not "real" school shootings? Subconscious racism might play a role since gang violence disproportionately affects minorities, but other explanations are welcome.
Also,Lamadia wrote:dangerous socialist attitude
Imperializt Russia wrote:I'm English, you tit.
by Tule » Sat Jun 14, 2014 12:49 pm
Big Jim P wrote:Tule wrote:Defining a school shooting as a shooting at a school is pretty straightforward. Schools are full of children1, they should not have shootings. Gang related or otherwise.
Defining a mass shooting as an event where a large number of people are shot is also pretty straight forward, saying that these events are bad is an understatement.2
A mass murder is a whole different category of crime that is simply defined as the murder of 4 people or more in one location over a short period. Mass murders can be school shootings, but they can also be arsons for example.3
School shootings are very serious, so are mass shootings. Something should be done to stop them and saying that they don't count because they are gang related is absurd, insensitive and suspiciously close to being racist.4
1) The line between criminals and law-abiding citizens is very fuzzy. Current federal law does not for instance prohibit people with a drinking problem from buying guns, even though alcohol abuse is an extremely big risk factor for committing murder.
Then there is the simple fact that nobody is completely law-abiding. Anyone who has ever jaywalked, pissed in public, been drunk in public, watched porn before the age of 18 etc. is a criminal.
Also, law-abiding citizens do commit murder. Not as often as career criminals, but thousands of people do die every year in America at the hands of "law-abiding gun owners", and reducing the number of guns in the hands of law abiding gun owners does reduce the rate of gun deaths.
2) Criminals will never be completely prevented from obtaining guns, but most of the guns they own originate from law abiding entities. Smith & Wesson does not have a secret black market factory. FFL's do not sell guns to convicted felons directly. But at some point the "law-abiding gun owner" sells a gun knowingly/recklessly to a prohibited person or recklessly stores the gun in a way that makes it easy to steal.
Mandating proper storage of firearms and holding gun owners liable for any damage their guns cause will reduce the flow of legal guns to prohibited persons. That's where supply and demand comes in. Fewer illegal guns = higher prices = fewer criminals buying guns = fewer people getting shot.
1 Then we need to stop calling College shootings "school shootings". Yes they are at schools, but the students are adults. Another way of dishonestly inflating numbers while remaining technically correct. Like referring to 11,000 deaths as "tens of thousands"
2"Mass shootings" by the definition I have seen is four, The same standard you mentioned for mass murders in 3.
4However gang-related shootings have a different motivation, and although they are indeed a serious problem, they should not be lumped in with other "school shootings" just to inflate the numbers. That is a very dishonest to say the least. As for it being racist, why? Because the fact is that most gang members are minorities? Fact is fact. Calling it racist is nothing more than an attempt to obscure the truth.
Now on to your reply to me:
1: True, but note, as you say law-abiding citizens do commit murder, but do so rarely, and considering the number of guns (est 300 million) and the number of gun-owners (est 100 million) Shootings are already rare events overall. The anti-gun crowd refuse to acknowledge the fact that the overwhelmingly VAST majority of gun owners will not commit a crime and the overwhelmingly vast majority of guns will not be used in a crime. It doesn't fit their agenda or support the lie of "increasing gun-violence".
2:If a gun owner knowingly sell a gun to a felon, he has already committed a crime, thus does not fall under law-abiding. Not storing gun so as to make it harder to steal is stupid on many levels. It is both dangerous and a very good way to lose a fairly valuable/expensive piece of property.
Gun owners are already liable for damage caused by their guns. Once sold (or stolen) they no longer own the gun and should not be held liable for it's use or misuse.
Then we need to stop calling College shootings "school shootings". Yes they are at schools, but the students are adults. Another way of dishonestly inflating numbers while remaining technically correct. Like referring to 11,000 deaths as "tens of thousands"
"Mass shootings" by the definition I have seen is four, The same standard you mentioned for mass murders.
1: True, but note, as you say law-abiding citizens do commit murder, but do so rarely, and considering the number of guns (est 300 million) and the number of gun-owners (est 100 million) Shootings are already rare events overall. The anti-gun crowd refuse to acknowledge the fact that the overwhelmingly VAST majority of gun owners will not commit a crime and the overwhelmingly vast majority of guns will not be used in a crime.
It doesn't fit their agenda or support the lie of "increasing gun-violence".
“Our lethality findings are strongly consistent with the hypothesis that progress in emergency medical care has converted an ever increasing proportion of homicides into non-lethal assaults and thus, by virtue of good intentions, ironically and unintentionally masked a continuing epidemic of violence in America,”
by Cyllea » Sat Jun 14, 2014 1:18 pm
Nazi Flower Power wrote:Cyllea wrote:Gang related shootings should not be included. The same amount of gang-related shootings would still happen, given that most, if not all, of their guns are illegal.
What makes you think other shooters are buying their own guns from legal sources and not just stealing them from relatives or buying them illegally?
by Llamalandia » Sat Jun 14, 2014 1:23 pm
Yumyumsuppertime wrote:greed and death wrote:
Though if you are going to count a principal's wife who is an adult, likely highly educated, and with no criminal record as someone that must be kept from guns I begin to question who you would allow to have a gun.
I didn't say any such thing. I simply stated that these were school shootings. Please address actual points being made, not ones that you find easier to address.
by Yumyumsuppertime » Sat Jun 14, 2014 2:09 pm
Llamalandia wrote:Yumyumsuppertime wrote:
I didn't say any such thing. I simply stated that these were school shootings. Please address actual points being made, not ones that you find easier to address.
Well it's inflation because its not one normally thinks of when one hears the term "school shooting". Generally we think of a "classic" school shooting as columbine-style shooting. That is one or more shooters who are current students of the school shooting/killing multiple other students/school personel.
Gang shootings are all targeted killings which yes may occasionally include some innocent bystanders, but those victims are unintended targets, whereas in a classic school shooting everyone shot was an intended target as the killers generally are shooting in a highly indiscriminate manner.
by Imperializt Russia » Sat Jun 14, 2014 2:23 pm
Yumyumsuppertime wrote:Llamalandia wrote:
Well it's inflation because its not one normally thinks of when one hears the term "school shooting". Generally we think of a "classic" school shooting as columbine-style shooting. That is one or more shooters who are current students of the school shooting/killing multiple other students/school personel.
Gang shootings are all targeted killings which yes may occasionally include some innocent bystanders, but those victims are unintended targets, whereas in a classic school shooting everyone shot was an intended target as the killers generally are shooting in a highly indiscriminate manner.
Funny, I think of a school shooting as any shooting that takes place at a school, and puts the lives of the students, faculty, and/or staff at risk, regardless of the intended target or targets.
Also,Lamadia wrote:dangerous socialist attitude
Imperializt Russia wrote:I'm English, you tit.
by Yumyumsuppertime » Sat Jun 14, 2014 2:44 pm
Imperializt Russia wrote:Yumyumsuppertime wrote:
Funny, I think of a school shooting as any shooting that takes place at a school, and puts the lives of the students, faculty, and/or staff at risk, regardless of the intended target or targets.
It's being done to sensationalise the issue, though, primarily by trying to tie it in with the Newtown shooting.
"74 school shootings since Sandy Hook".
Compare with, "74 school shootings since 2013".
Understanding the motivation behind shootings and the circumstances to which they occur are just as important to trying to curb them.
A child who goes and shoots or stabs another child due to "gangs", that's indicative of a cultural problem - gang culture. A child who goes and shoots or stabs another child over a payment for a sold Wii console is indicative of a different cultural problem.
A person who goes with the express intent of shooting as many people as possible is a different and entirely more concerning cultural problem - which has, amazingly, managed to spawn its own cultural problem of further stigmatising mental health.
by Val Nube » Sat Jun 14, 2014 2:46 pm
by Geilinor » Sat Jun 14, 2014 2:47 pm
Val Nube wrote:Yumyumsuppertime wrote:
Except it's not inflation to call a shooting on school property a school shooting.
Really? So the cop who dropped his gun and had it go off, the justifiable homicide in self defense, and the drug deal that went bad in the parking lot at two in the morning are school shootings? The campus cop who was accidentally shot by other cops is a school shooting? The shooting that took place off school property is a school shooting?
by Yumyumsuppertime » Sat Jun 14, 2014 2:47 pm
Val Nube wrote:Yumyumsuppertime wrote:
Except it's not inflation to call a shooting on school property a school shooting.
Really? So the cop who dropped his gun and had it go off, the justifiable homicide in self defense, and the drug deal that went bad in the parking lot at two in the morning are school shootings? The campus cop who was accidentally shot by other cops is a school shooting? The shooting that took place off school property is a school shooting?
by Imperializt Russia » Sat Jun 14, 2014 2:48 pm
Yumyumsuppertime wrote:Imperializt Russia wrote:It's being done to sensationalise the issue, though, primarily by trying to tie it in with the Newtown shooting.
"74 school shootings since Sandy Hook".
Compare with, "74 school shootings since 2013".
Understanding the motivation behind shootings and the circumstances to which they occur are just as important to trying to curb them.
A child who goes and shoots or stabs another child due to "gangs", that's indicative of a cultural problem - gang culture. A child who goes and shoots or stabs another child over a payment for a sold Wii console is indicative of a different cultural problem.
A person who goes with the express intent of shooting as many people as possible is a different and entirely more concerning cultural problem - which has, amazingly, managed to spawn its own cultural problem of further stigmatising mental health.
And the fact that such things happen in an environment created as a safe space meant for the development of children's intellectual and physical growth is a separate but overlapping cultural issue.
Also,Lamadia wrote:dangerous socialist attitude
Imperializt Russia wrote:I'm English, you tit.
by Yumyumsuppertime » Sat Jun 14, 2014 2:49 pm
Imperializt Russia wrote:One which transcends firearms.
by Val Nube » Sat Jun 14, 2014 2:51 pm
Yumyumsuppertime wrote:Val Nube wrote:
Really? So the cop who dropped his gun and had it go off, the justifiable homicide in self defense, and the drug deal that went bad in the parking lot at two in the morning are school shootings? The campus cop who was accidentally shot by other cops is a school shooting? The shooting that took place off school property is a school shooting?
Provide links to unbiased sources with details.
by Suicune » Sat Jun 14, 2014 3:02 pm
by Geilinor » Sat Jun 14, 2014 3:03 pm
Suicune wrote:As for the OP, if a gang member shoots people at school, its still a school shooting. Isn't that logic?
Advertisement
Users browsing this forum: Ancientania, Andavarast, Bienenhalde, Burnt Calculators, Cinnaa, Diarcesia, Dimetrodon Empire, Duvniask, Emotional Support Crocodile, Pale Dawn, Tarsonis, Zetaopalatopia
Advertisement