There is but one lady for me.
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by Evil Wolf » Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:36 pm
Kryozerkia wrote:In the good old days raiding was illegal
Crazy Girl wrote:Invading was never illegal
[violet] wrote:There is supposed to be an invasion game.
by Loquacity » Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:51 pm
South Pacific Belschaft wrote:Unibot III wrote:
I went out on a date with Wordy, but we didn't get married.
You were married to a former raider... trying to remember her name. You gave one of the incarnations of EID (when we had to move due to sudden lack of founder) to her as part of a divorce settlement or something.
Edit: it was Loquacity.
by Carta » Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:56 pm
Evil Wolf wrote:Oh Milo, stop it, you flatter me.
by Evil Wolf » Thu Jun 12, 2014 10:15 pm
Kryozerkia wrote:In the good old days raiding was illegal
Crazy Girl wrote:Invading was never illegal
[violet] wrote:There is supposed to be an invasion game.
by Small Huts » Thu Jun 12, 2014 10:29 pm
Evil Wolf wrote:Well, in that case it's a good thing I'm not a lady but a man.
by Tlik » Fri Jun 13, 2014 10:59 am
Misley wrote:Perhaps The Rejected Times would be well-served by examining the number of raids carried out by the Right Wing Uprising before, during, and following the Liberation of Nazi Europe.
In a result that will surprise absolutely no one, save for apparently Unibot and the UDL, when RWU's WA forces were tied up holding a dead carcass of a region, they weren't able to strike out at very many regions, and the one or two raids they did conduct were not long-term because they couldn't afford to spread themselves thin! Then, in the days immediately following the repeal of the liberation, they were able to organize several tag raids, and ultimately were able to bring two raids to a full password (Liberal Haven, which required a SC Liberation to undo, and The Old West).
Pretending that if we ignore Nazism or give Fascists a goddamn platform from which to spread their hate that it will somehow wither away is just mind-boggling. The persecution complex they have rightly earned isn't the only thing that nourishes Fascist thought, and vocal, relentless anti-fascism may indeed dissuade otherwise manipulable minds from subscribing to an ideology of hate.
But you're right, how barbaric and Nazi-serving of us to deny a platform to would-be mass murderers. Perhaps we should tell the immigrants in Greece to just ignore the murderous assaults of the Golden Dawn, and the Jews in Ukraine not to worry about literal Fascists having stolen power in that country while stating on the record that Ukraine's problems are because of the "Muscovite-Jewish mafia."
... Nah. Bash the Fash!
Misley wrote:But you're right, how barbaric and Nazi-serving of us to deny a platform to would-be mass murderers. Perhaps we should tell the immigrants in Greece to just ignore the murderous assaults of the Golden Dawn, and the Jews in Ukraine not to worry about literal Fascists having stolen power in that country while stating on the record that Ukraine's problems are because of the "Muscovite-Jewish mafia."
by The Blaatschapen » Fri Jun 13, 2014 1:03 pm
by Mekhet » Fri Jun 13, 2014 1:19 pm
The Blaatschapen wrote:Great edition this time
I especially enjoyed the FIFA world cup bit. Go TSP
Also, the NS marriage thing by Unibot is spot on. It's one of two reasons why I don't NS marriage or anything close to it (both here and in NSG).
The other reason is of course that I'm a sheep.
by Misley » Fri Jun 13, 2014 2:09 pm
Tlik wrote:EDIT: I also didn't notice this part, which I feel the need to address because it comes up every single time:Misley wrote:But you're right, how barbaric and Nazi-serving of us to deny a platform to would-be mass murderers. Perhaps we should tell the immigrants in Greece to just ignore the murderous assaults of the Golden Dawn, and the Jews in Ukraine not to worry about literal Fascists having stolen power in that country while stating on the record that Ukraine's problems are because of the "Muscovite-Jewish mafia."
The problem is that the immigrants in Greece are being attacked and violently assaulted by people connected with groups such as the Golden Dawn.
Tlik wrote:I can't comment on the Ukrainian situation, although I don't believe it is particularly dire at the moment (certainly the most recent claim of fascist leafleting is regarded to be a hoax).
When the Euromaidan protests began in Ukraine in 2013, Svoboda and the similarly far-right fascist organization Right Sector emerged as key parliamentary and militant opposition to the legitimate Ukrainian government. Right Sector stole military weaponry from a Ukrainian government arsenal and delivered some to protesters while stockpiling others. When these protests resulted in the overthrow of President Yanukovych, Svoboda members Oleksandr Sych, Ihor Tenyukh, Ihor Shvaika, and Andriy Mokhnyk were named to the Cabinet of Ukraine, with the offices of Vice Prime Minister, Minister of Defense, Minister of Agrarian Policy and Food, and Minister of Ecology and Natural Resources, respectively.
In May 2014, the House of Trade Unions in Odessa was set ablaze by nationalists who had driven anti-fascist protesters into the building. In the blaze, protesters died either from the fire, smoke inhalation, or jumping from the building to escape the flames. Others were killed by being strangled and beaten to death by nationalists with bats when attempting to escape. In all, 48 anti-fascists were killed, and more than 200 more protesters were badly injured. On Victory Day, the fascist government unleashed tanks, armored personnel carriers, and armed infantry on unarmed civilians, killing 20 people, most of whom were celebrating the 69th anniversary of the victory of the Red Army against the Nazis.
Tlik wrote:However, I completely understand the point you're making, and it is entirely true: Nazis and Fascist groups are a real problem that we are having to face, and that problem has recently got a lot worse. We should not be staying quiet about real life Nazism. In the UK we need to have a real discussion about the rise of parties that have had historical connections with the far right, and I'm sure these conversations are going on around Europe, and around the world. The reason for this is that those groups and organisations have real power, even if that power at the moment is often limited to simple violence. We cannot let that power go unchallenged, or we risk losing our democracy in the name of hate.
Tlik wrote:The difference here is that the pseudo-Nazi groups on NationStates do not have that power. They do not have the ability to hurt people. They may spout hate-talk, and they may do so personally, and this is most certainly wrong, but if we see that sort of thing happening the solution is not to invade them, because that gives them a platform for their views. As soon as they know they can get a reaction out of us, they, like any childhood bully, will continue to press the button.
Tlik wrote:The solution is the moderation team, which, here on NationStates, clearly defines a line that differentiates between hate-speech and distasteful discussion. This probably isn't the time or place to discuss whether the latter should be allowed in NationStates or not, but we have to remember that, at present, it doesn't hurt people. On the other hand, hate-speech, which does hurt people, and can vindictively destroy people's lives, is not allowed here. If you see anything of the sort, report it, please, to make NationStates a better place. In the meantime, please don't conflate some of the real-life crimes that far-right groups have committed with the merely distasteful things that have been discussed on NationStates.
by South Pacific Belschaft » Fri Jun 13, 2014 4:36 pm
THE FEDERAL REPUBLIC OF BELSCHAFT
GUARDIAN OF THE SOUTH PACIFIC
by Misley » Fri Jun 13, 2014 4:58 pm
South Pacific Belschaft wrote:You undermine everything else you say - some of which is quite correct, especially in regards to Greece - by absurdly referring to Donestk ethnic-Russian separatists as "anti-fascists". Their not; many of the separatists in eastern Ukraine themselves have ties to far right groups. Nor is the Ukrainian government in any fascist.
You've been listening to too much Russian propaganda.
by Dalimbar » Fri Jun 13, 2014 7:05 pm
by South Pacific Belschaft » Fri Jun 13, 2014 7:13 pm
THE FEDERAL REPUBLIC OF BELSCHAFT
GUARDIAN OF THE SOUTH PACIFIC
by Cormac A Stark » Fri Jun 13, 2014 8:00 pm
by The Blaatschapen » Fri Jun 13, 2014 9:51 pm
Cormac A Stark wrote:Dear God, I feel like I'm in General. SOMEONE HELP ME.
by Carta » Sat Jun 14, 2014 1:59 am
by Shadow Afforess » Sat Jun 14, 2014 7:03 am
The Rejected Realms Media Corporation wrote:Issue XXII, June 12 2014.
...snip...
by Tlik » Sat Jun 14, 2014 7:09 am
Misley wrote:-snippity-
Tlik wrote:The difference here is that the pseudo-Nazi groups on NationStates do not have that power. They do not have the ability to hurt people. They may spout hate-talk, and they may do so personally, and this is most certainly wrong, but if we see that sort of thing happening the solution is not to invade them, because that gives them a platform for their views. As soon as they know they can get a reaction out of us, they, like any childhood bully, will continue to press the button.
This is where I disagree with you. I agree that pseudo-Nazi (which is an important distinction, as most of the big Fash regions are either roleplaying Nazis or are far-right while stopping short of full Nazism--either way, they have adopted the terminology and, superficially, the ideology of murderers, so I don't feel compelled to give them much slack) groups on NationStates do not have "real" or violent power.
However, NationStates is a game played (it would seem) overwhelmingly by students in adolescent years--I don't know if there has ever been a formal survey or census that looks into this, but from RMB posts and the forum this is the indication I have gotten. That places a great deal of NS players into the most critical stage of their moral development. If we ignore fascists, then we are effectively saying that their ideology is not dangerous enough to merit a response. If we give fascists a platform, then we are effectively saying that their ideology is not dangerous enough to agitate against. If we instead engage against fascists, agitating against them both educationally and, via NS gameplay, militarily (to deprive them of platforms of hate and prevent them from attacking others--this is a bit more abstract as they can of course just create a new region, but it's hard to suggest that raiding NE doesn't deprive the fash of a major platform or that they were largely incapable of attacking others while NE was liberated) then we work to stimulate appropriate cognitive and moral development in the kids that play this game.
Tlik wrote:The solution is the moderation team, which, here on NationStates, clearly defines a line that differentiates between hate-speech and distasteful discussion. This probably isn't the time or place to discuss whether the latter should be allowed in NationStates or not, but we have to remember that, at present, it doesn't hurt people. On the other hand, hate-speech, which does hurt people, and can vindictively destroy people's lives, is not allowed here. If you see anything of the sort, report it, please, to make NationStates a better place. In the meantime, please don't conflate some of the real-life crimes that far-right groups have committed with the merely distasteful things that have been discussed on NationStates.
I agree with this to an extent. I've certainly reported abusive messages from Fash in the past, but that is a largely silent process that removes the responsibility of action from individual players. A combined approach is necessary -- individual players must take responsibility for agitating against fascism (the degree to which is up to each player--I wouldn't expect the same antifascist agitation from liberal centrists as I do from leftists) while also involving the moderation team when the rules of NS are broken.
We must remember that there is no "moderation team" in real life to combat hate speech except for principled antifascists.
by Casita » Sat Jun 14, 2014 12:15 pm
by Tlik » Sat Jun 14, 2014 5:30 pm
Casita wrote:Those 'pseudo nazi ' regions play with actual racist regions. They don't deny embassies with such regions nor do they denounce those regions publicly. There's more to it than just 'innocent' Nazi game players.
by Casita » Sat Jun 14, 2014 6:09 pm
Tlik wrote:Casita wrote:Those 'pseudo nazi ' regions play with actual racist regions. They don't deny embassies with such regions nor do they denounce those regions publicly. There's more to it than just 'innocent' Nazi game players.
If you see a region that is genuinely racist, file a GHR. That will be much more effective than anything else we can, as players, do.
That said, I'm not trying to paint pseudonazism as innocent. I've said before and I'll say again, I don't understand it as a concept at all. However, I do not believe that in-game military aggression will do any good, and, for reasons outlined in my post, I would argue that we stand the danger of doing harm with excessive wars.
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