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A United Ireland:For or Against?(take 2)

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Do you support a United Ireland?

Yes
82
41%
No
74
37%
Yes,but under the British Flag
43
22%
 
Total votes : 199

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Ariddia
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Postby Ariddia » Sun Jun 08, 2014 5:05 am

Great Empire of Ireland wrote:Many of you know the story of Ireland. But if you dont I will tell you.


Except that you've got parts of it wrong. ;)

In 1801 the British Empire officially made Ireland part of the United Kingdom. forming the United Kingdom of Great Britain.


The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. The fiction of the autonomy of British-occupied Ireland was abolished, along with its puppet parliament, and the Irish became formally British subjects / citizens, electing representatives to the British Parliament.

In 1916 the IRA rebelled against the British hoping to form a Free and United Ireland.


It's more complicated than that. In the late 19th and early 20th centuries, the main claim of Irish nationalists (other than compensation for alienation of land rights) was autonomy, rather than independence. The British House of Commons was willing (whenever it had a Liberal majority), and was able to force the matter through once the House of Lords had been largely deprived of power. Hence the Home Rule Act 1914, which satisfied most Irish nationalists. It provided for an autonomous Irish government within the United Kingdom.

The implementation of the Home Rule Act was suspended because of the First World War. In that context, what was initially a radical minority within the Irish nationalist movement staged the Easter Rising in 1916, and unilaterally proclaimed an independent Irish republic. Initially, most Irish people opposed them… until the British brutally repressed the rebellion, and Irish public opinion consequently swung behind the rebels. (Who were a brutal bunch themselves, it has to be said. Civilians were murdered on the streets by both sides.)

After 1921 when the Irish Free State was formed,Ireland was still part of the British Empire and Ireland was somewhat united(I think).


No. The deal struck between the British government and the Irish nationalists was to recognise the independence of most of Ireland, while allowing the north of the island to choose to remain British (which it did). A majority of people in Ulster were fiercely Unionist, while a majority in the rest of Ireland were nationalists. Hence the creation of Northern Ireland at that time.

It led to a civil war between Irish nationalists, which ended with the victory of the "moderates" in power in Dublin, and the accepting of the agreement.

Northern Ireland has been separate from the rest of Ireland, by choice, since the London Treaty of 1921.

As for your question: The Belfast Agreement of 1998 recognises that it is up to the people of Northern Ireland to decide their own future. The governments in Dublin and London have both pledged to respect their wishes. For now, a clear and growing majority of people in Northern Ireland want to remain with the United Kingdom. They should not, and cannot realistically, be forced to join with the Irish Republic against their wishes.

Ireland is counted as a failed state because of the economic crisis


That's putting it much too strongly. Somalia is a failed state. Tajikistan is arguably a failed state. The Solomon Islands are recovering from teetering on the brink of being a failed state. Ireland is very far from being in such company.
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Alexanda
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Postby Alexanda » Sun Jun 08, 2014 5:07 am

I would support a United Ireland, but a United Ireland part of the United Kingdom.
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Ariddia
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Postby Ariddia » Sun Jun 08, 2014 5:17 am

Alexanda wrote:I would support a United Ireland, but a United Ireland part of the United Kingdom.


Obviously not going to happen. The people of the Irish Republic tend to be proudly independent, and don't even want to be in the Commonwealth.
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National Socialist Republics of Europe
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Postby National Socialist Republics of Europe » Sun Jun 08, 2014 5:20 am

Yes, but out of the EU.
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Alexanda
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Postby Alexanda » Sun Jun 08, 2014 5:25 am

Ariddia wrote:
Alexanda wrote:I would support a United Ireland, but a United Ireland part of the United Kingdom.


Obviously not going to happen. The people of the Irish Republic tend to be proudly independent, and don't even want to be in the Commonwealth.

I know it isn't going to happen.
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My condolences to those who were killed in the recent terror attacks, and may God help us defeat the twisted ideology which prompted such evil!

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Alexanda
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Postby Alexanda » Sun Jun 08, 2014 5:28 am

Great Empire of Ireland wrote:Many of you know the story of Ireland. But if you dont I will tell you. In 1801 the British Empire officially made Ireland part of the United Kingdom. forming the United Kingdom of Great Britain. In 1916 the IRA rebelled against the British hoping to form a Free and United Ireland. After 1921 when the Irish Free State was formed,Ireland was still part of the British Empire and Ireland was somewhat united(I think).However in 1949 when Ireland left the Commonwealth, Ulster seceded from the Irish Republic(now the Republic of Ireland). Thus starting a decades long debate over a United Ireland that still goes on today.

Pros
Unification of a nation

Cons
Northern Ireland has voted against this many time
Ireland is counted as a failed state because of the economic crisis

But I want to know what you think. so please tell me here and debate. and please no spam.

For a better summary then what i gave you please look at this source. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Ireland

Much of the information you have offered is inaccurate and wrong.
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My condolences to those who were killed in the recent terror attacks, and may God help us defeat the twisted ideology which prompted such evil!

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Alexanda
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Postby Alexanda » Sun Jun 08, 2014 5:31 am

O.O.C: Much of the information you have offered is wrong (e.g, a united Ireland wasn't ever part of Great Britain; simply part of the United Kingdom.)
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My condolences to those who were killed in the recent terror attacks, and may God help us defeat the twisted ideology which prompted such evil!

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Atlanticatia
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Postby Atlanticatia » Sun Jun 08, 2014 8:12 am

No. Northern Ireland is much more British than Irish.
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Risottia
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Postby Risottia » Sun Jun 08, 2014 8:14 am

Great Empire of Ireland wrote:Northern Ireland has voted against this many time

This settles it I think.
As long as the majority of NI voters don't want to join the RoI, I don't see why they should be forced to.

Ireland is counted [by whom?]as a failed state because of the economic crisis [citation needed]
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The Picti
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Postby The Picti » Sun Jun 08, 2014 3:12 pm

Alexanda wrote:I would support a United Ireland, but a United Ireland part of the United Kingdom.



When Hell freezes over.................


No country has ever asked to rejoin the Brit empire after it achieved its independence.
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Fionnuala_Saoirse
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Postby Fionnuala_Saoirse » Sun Jun 08, 2014 3:28 pm

Densaner wrote:It won't happen. Even if it did you would get a kind of reverse troubles. Loyalists would bomb the crap out of Dublin to get out of being part of a United Ireland.


Excellent display of ignorance of the many factors that kicked off the Troubles.
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Libertarian California
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Postby Libertarian California » Sun Jun 08, 2014 4:22 pm

I guess this is related:


Can someone tell me why a bunch of half-brained "Irish-Americans" gave the IRA a bunch of guns in the 1960s and 1970s?
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The Scientific States
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Postby The Scientific States » Sun Jun 08, 2014 4:26 pm

No, I'm not for it. Ireland is relatively peaceful right now, and most Northern Irish people want to be part of the UK. If Ireland were to become united, it would certainly cause instability and violence.
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Fionnuala_Saoirse
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Postby Fionnuala_Saoirse » Sun Jun 08, 2014 4:44 pm

Libertarian California wrote:I guess this is related:


Can someone tell me why a bunch of half-brained "Irish-Americans" gave the IRA a bunch of guns in the 1960s and 1970s?


A belief in the need for armed resistance against an oppressor of those to whom they felt an ethnic link.

Well that was tricky.
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Cupola
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Postby Cupola » Sun Jun 08, 2014 4:59 pm

Just let the people of the Ulster decide that. I'm sure they'll make the right decision. I don't have much of an opinion for or against it myself.
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Geilinor
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Postby Geilinor » Sun Jun 08, 2014 5:23 pm

Libertarian California wrote:I guess this is related:


Can someone tell me why a bunch of half-brained "Irish-Americans" gave the IRA a bunch of guns in the 1960s and 1970s?

Irish-Americans were historically a source of anti-British sentiment in the United States. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglophobia#Anglophobia_in_the_Irish-American_community
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New Acardia
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Postby New Acardia » Sun Jun 08, 2014 5:31 pm

It shoud be left to the people who live in Northern Ireland.
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Libertarian California
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Postby Libertarian California » Sun Jun 08, 2014 10:20 pm

Fionnuala_Saoirse wrote:
Libertarian California wrote:I guess this is related:


Can someone tell me why a bunch of half-brained "Irish-Americans" gave the IRA a bunch of guns in the 1960s and 1970s?


A belief in the need for armed resistance against an oppressor of those to whom they felt an ethnic link.

Well that was tricky.


Ethnic link my ass. There are people here with German or English last names who claim Irish heritage because their grandfather's third cousin is from Ireland. It's sheer idiocy.

These so-called Irishmen think that Irish culture is nothing more than St. Patrick's Day and Guinness. Hell, many of them aren't even Catholic, they're straight-up WASPs.
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Postby Ifreann » Mon Jun 09, 2014 8:01 am

Libertarian California wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Amusing sentiment to hear from an American nationalist.


Why would I be opposed to Great Britain?

Well because they're not America.
...Also, nothing pisses me off more than a so-called "Irish"-American thinking that he is actually Irish because he occasionally drinks Guinness or sends the IRA some guns.

I really must drink more Guinness...


Libertarian California wrote:
Fionnuala_Saoirse wrote:
A belief in the need for armed resistance against an oppressor of those to whom they felt an ethnic link.

Well that was tricky.


Ethnic link my ass. There are people here with German or English last names who claim Irish heritage because their grandfather's third cousin is from Ireland. It's sheer idiocy.

Like Fionnuala said, they felt an ethnic link. That doesn't mean it was any real or meaningful link.

These so-called Irishmen think that Irish culture is nothing more than St. Patrick's Day and Guinness. Hell, many of them aren't even Catholic, they're straight-up WASPs.

Are you actually arguing some point or just ranting?
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Scholmeria
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Postby Scholmeria » Mon Jun 09, 2014 9:01 am

Geilinor wrote:
Libertarian California wrote:I guess this is related:


Can someone tell me why a bunch of half-brained "Irish-Americans" gave the IRA a bunch of guns in the 1960s and 1970s?

Irish-Americans were historically a source of anti-British sentiment in the United States. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglophobia#Anglophobia_in_the_Irish-American_community

So? They were opressed by the Anglos, it is not somethin unusuall.
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Thanatttynia
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Postby Thanatttynia » Mon Jun 09, 2014 9:06 am

Scholmeria wrote:
Geilinor wrote:Irish-Americans were historically a source of anti-British sentiment in the United States. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglophobia#Anglophobia_in_the_Irish-American_community

So? They were opressed by the Anglos, it is not somethin unusuall.


They had no idea what was going on in Ireland, and neither do you.
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Scholmeria
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Postby Scholmeria » Mon Jun 09, 2014 12:07 pm

Thanatttynia wrote:
Scholmeria wrote:So? They were opressed by the Anglos, it is not somethin unusuall.


They had no idea what was going on in Ireland, and neither do you.

Cenrtainly they did. They are refugee that survived the British sponsored famine from the 1830s.
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Dreadful Sagittarius
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Postby Dreadful Sagittarius » Mon Jun 09, 2014 1:50 pm

Interesting to see Scholmeria is rather selective when it comes to posts he/she responds to. What do you have to say to the fact that the Northern Irish, who by this point are as Scottish as my left foot, have said over the years via national poll that they'd rather stick with Britain? Will we see a change of the radio station from 94.5 British Oppression FM?
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Chesham
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Postby Chesham » Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:56 am

It's pie in the sky to ever hope for a united Ireland as part of the UK, so I support Northern Ireland unionism.

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Postby Rabbidskiya Republika » Tue Jun 10, 2014 4:24 pm

Yes, Ireland should be Re-unified.
Is it a smart idea? Probably Not.
Would it really work? Maybe.
Would It confuse People less? Yes, It would.
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