Finland To Vote On NATO Membership

[MERIZoC]

I don't think "either" side (Israel or the myriad of diverse political and social forces that historically composed Palestine) is the right one.

Again, stop the binarism.

You either support the self-determination of the Jewish people or you don't. Pick your side; Israel or the Arabs!

Or, you support Israel's existence, but also it's getting the fuck out of the West Bank and ending the blockade on Gaza. Like I do.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

You either support the self-determination of the Jewish people or you don't. Pick your side; Israel or the Arabs!

I support self-determination of all people.

I don't support colonialism, apartheid, oppression of the nationals of little political representation of other countries through occupation, human rights violations, land-grabbing, and I think the Israeli in general are a bunch of toxic viborae who are best served at the bottom of an ocean just like people who USA can claim to be terrorists and criminals against humanity instead of actively defending them and making sure other countries don't do this.

You either are okay with this, or stop acting like they're angels versus an infestation of human cockroaches.

Pick a side.

[Constaniana]

Basically, I'm just glad the US doesn't have highly suspect elections and "gay-propaganda" laws.

Internal politics is irrelevant to the question of which side to support in international politics.

Internally, the U.S. was better in absolutely every way compared to Saddam Hussein's Iraq. That doesn't mean we should have supported the U.S. invasion of Iraq.

Russia isn't weak, it has nukes. I'm not suggesting that Russia would use them, but still. Don't act like Russia is weak and oppressed.

Russia is not oppressed by any means, but it is weak compared to the U.S. The United States can project power anywhere in the world. Russia can't even project power as far as Kiev these days.

It certainly seemed to have no problem projecting power into Ukraine when it nicked the Crimea and started sending in troops patriotic Russian volunteers devoted to the defence of the speaking of the Glorious Russian Tongue who wear Russian military uniforms with the insignia scribbled out.

[Pilotto]

Russia is sure threatening Ukraine's internal stability by supporting the Russophones over other Ukrainians.

Now rhetorically, what did I just say about binarism?

I hate both sides.

You can't just say, "I hate everyone." and leave. The world as we know it has three main powers, the US, China, and Russia. Every single country on the planet resides within the sphere of influence of at least one of these three nations. Now, generally speaking, one of those countries has a history of respecting human rights and individual liberty, and the other two do not. Whose sphere of influence would you prefer to be in?

[MERIZoC]

Basically, I'm just glad the US doesn't have highly suspect elections and "gay-propaganda" laws.

Internal politics is irrelevant to the question of which side to support in international politics.

Internally, the U.S. was better in absolutely every way compared to Saddam Hussein's Iraq. That doesn't mean we should have supported the U.S. invasion of Iraq.

Well, if I have to pick who has more influence on the world, I'd prefer the one that wouldn't push antiquated laws.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

Now, generally speaking, one of those countries has a history of respecting human rights and individual liberty, and the other two do not.

How can you tell that to a person from Latin America with a straight face?

[MERIZoC]

Now rhetorically, what did I just say about binarism?

I hate both sides.

You can't just say, "I hate everyone." and leave. The world as we know it has three main powers, the US, China, and Russia. The entire world is within the sphere of influence of at least one of those three nations. Now, generally speaking, one of those countries has a history of respecting human rights and individual liberty, and the other two do not. Whose sphere of influence would you prefer to be in?

None of them have great records, including the US. You want to get behind a power that has respected human rights? Try the EU.

[Satanic Socialist States]

You either support the self-determination of the Jewish people or you don't. Pick your side; Israel or the Arabs!

I support self-determination of all people.

I don't support colonialism, apartheid, oppression of the nationals of little political representation of other countries through occupation, human rights violations, land-grabbing, and I think the Israeli in general are a bunch of toxic viborae who are best served at the bottom of an ocean just like people who USA can claim to be terrorists and criminals against humanity instead of actively defending them and making sure other countries don't do this.

You either are okay with this, or stop acting like they're angels versus an infestation of human cockroaches.

Pick a side.

Yep, you are an antisemite. The"Palestinians" are invaders and colonialists and have been since they first stepped foot on Jewish soil.

[Satanic Socialist States]

You can't just say, "I hate everyone." and leave. The world as we know it has three main powers, the US, China, and Russia. The entire world is within the sphere of influence of at least one of those three nations. Now, generally speaking, one of those countries has a history of respecting human rights and individual liberty, and the other two do not. Whose sphere of influence would you prefer to be in?

None of them have great records, including the US. You want to get behind a power that has respected human rights? Try the EU.

Ya, get behind EUrabia! We all know about how Moslems always support human rights.

[Constantinopolis]

Seriously? Are we doing this again? Must every single damn opponent that Western powers ever face, under any circumstances, always be compared to the Nazis? Can't you at least come up with a more creative comparison?

For the record, Germany's power was not at historic lows in 1918-1940. Germany didn't even exist as a single country before 1871.

I love how any reference to Germany's history in the 1920s and 1930s is automatically considered an invocation of Godwin's Law

Fixed it for you.

Don't pretend that you were talking about something else when mentioning that "Germany's power was at a historic low circa 1918-1940", because we both know you weren't.

Had you referenced, I don't know, Germany during the Cold War for example, or Germany before WW1, that would have obviously been different.

no matter how accurate it is.

Here's why it's not accurate, though. The Nazis did many things that, taken separately on their own, are perfectly normal and fine and not indicative of some kind of evil monstrous threat to world security. For example, they built highways. They promoted car ownership. They had an anti-smoking campaign.

So just saying "the Nazis did X!!!", as if that's a good reason to oppose anyone who does X, is fallacious and absurd and needs to be called out as such.

[Pilotto]

Now, generally speaking, one of those countries has a history of respecting human rights and individual liberty, and the other two do not.

How can you tell that to a person from Latin America with a straight face?

Compile a list of unsavory things that the US has done in Latin America. Now compare it to a list of unsavory things that the Soviet Union did to its East Bloc puppet-states, and to its own people. I didn't say that the US is perfect by any means.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

Yep, you are an antisemite.

Thank you. ^_^

I actually like to hear from racists that I'm a racist against the side they supposedly defend. Means I'm doing the right thing.

The"Palestinians" are invaders and colonialists and have been since they first stepped foot on Jewish soil.

Tsk, tsk, tsk, maple boy, facts are against you. Their DNA is compatible with the one associated with the common population ancestor between the various Jewish diasporas around Earth. That is, they have a great deal of belonging in that clay to be more of Hebrews than most of the challengers to their claim on such land.

[Pilotto]

You can't just say, "I hate everyone." and leave. The world as we know it has three main powers, the US, China, and Russia. The entire world is within the sphere of influence of at least one of those three nations. Now, generally speaking, one of those countries has a history of respecting human rights and individual liberty, and the other two do not. Whose sphere of influence would you prefer to be in?

None of them have great records, including the US. You want to get behind a power that has respected human rights? Try the EU.

The UN hasn't done much in the way of human rights abuses either. As a matter of fact, neither the EU or the UN has ever done much of anything at all.

[Satanic Socialist States]

None of them have great records, including the US. You want to get behind a power that has respected human rights? Try the EU.

The UN hasn't done much in the way of human rights abuses either. As a matter of fact, neither the EU or the UN has ever done much of anything at all.

Actually, both organization's human rights courts are jokes that regularly deny basic human rights in order to avoid offending Moslems.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

Compile a list of unsavory things that the US has done in Latin America. Now compare it to a list of unsavory things that the Soviet Union did to its East Bloc puppet-states, and to its own people. I didn't say that the US is perfect by any means.

Revolution-imposed totalitarianism is totally comparable to a federated Constitutional liberal representative democratic republic. Totally.

[Pilotto]

Compile a list of unsavory things that the US has done in Latin America. Now compare it to a list of unsavory things that the Soviet Union did to its East Bloc puppet-states, and to its own people. I didn't say that the US is perfect by any means.

Revolution-imposed totalitarianism is totally comparable to a federated Constitutional liberal representative democratic republic. Totally.

When we are comparing the historical wrongs of two nations, then yes, they are very comparable.

[Constantinopolis]

How can you tell that to a person from Latin America with a straight face?

Compile a list of unsavory things that the US has done in Latin America. Now compare it to a list of unsavory things that the Soviet Union did to its East Bloc puppet-states, and to its own people. I didn't say that the US is perfect by any means.

Should we pick the side we support in any given international conflict based on some kind of balance sheet of what each country did in the past? And how far into the past do you propose that we go? I mean, you know, if we include the genocide of the Native Americans and slavery in the pre-Civil War U.S., the balance sheet looks rather different than if we cut it off at the beginning of the 20th century.

That is one of many reasons why this "balance sheet" approach to international politics is very, very wrong.

I think we should pick our sides based on which one happens to be more in line with our goals at the present time, and - even more importantly - based on our best guess of which side is most likely to have a positive effect on the global political situation.

Right now, the crushing global power of the U.S. is a serious problem that needs to be fixed. A resurgent Russia promises to help fix this problem and restore some balance to international politics (although China is more promising in this regard).

[Occupied Deutschland]

So to circle back round to the topic a bit, whether this would even pass if put to a vote seems dodgy at the moment:
34% for, 45% against, as of April of this year (IE: post that whole Crimea business that seems to be the impetus behind this exploration by Finland), though other polls supposedly peg the debate at roughly 50-50 in regards to those for and against, with a good number remaining who are unsure.

As that last article is mainly focused around, however, Finnish sentiment is in favor of closer military ties with Sweden (and perhaps, by extension, NORDEFCO).

[Pilotto]

Compile a list of unsavory things that the US has done in Latin America. Now compare it to a list of unsavory things that the Soviet Union did to its East Bloc puppet-states, and to its own people. I didn't say that the US is perfect by any means.

Should we pick the side we support in any given international conflict based on some kind of balance sheet of what each country did in the past?

I think we should pick our sides based on which one happens to be more in line with our goals at the present time, and - even more importantly - based on our best guess of which side is most likely to have a positive effect on the global political situation.

Right now, the crushing global power of the U.S. is a serious problem that needs to be fixed. A resurgent Russia promises to help fix this problem and restore some balance to international politics (although China is more promising in this regard).

How is the "crushing global power of the U.S." a problem that needs to be fixed? We don't invade sovereign nations without provocation, like Russia, and we don't abuse our own citizens, like China and Russia.

[Carbon based lifeforms]

The"Palestinians" are invaders and colonialists and have been since they first stepped foot on Jewish soil.

1. That's bullshit and you know it.
2. This is not the Israel/Palestine thread.

[Estado Paulista]

A discussion about the Finnish referendum on NATO membership has turned into a discussion on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Hilarious.

[Jumalariik]

Sounds good.
I hate the West, but I hate Russia more.

[Sollis]

Putin called those who opposed him in Ukraine Nazis. http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/03/putins-imaginary-nazis-105217.html

Well, they are ultra-nationalists who see themselves as upholding the legacy of Ukrainian nationalist forces from the WW2 era (who were allied with the actual Nazis for most of the war). Whether or not you call Right Sector "Nazis" is simply a semantic issue of where you want to draw the line between "ultra-nationalists" and "Nazis".

I'm sorry, but that's a steaming pile of bull.

In reference to the OP, I am glad Finland is at least considering the option. Russia, while claiming to be a victim of western imperialism, is not much different from the west when it comes to imperialist tendencies, as much as they'd like to deny it.

[Carbon based lifeforms]

When faced with a choice between two enemies, one powerful and one weak, the smart choice is to support the weaker side, even if it happens to be a slightly darker shade of grey than the strong side. The powerful enemy is more likely to screw you over, since it has less of a need for you.

You would support the bad guys just because they are the weakest? Seriously?

Well, I think the maffia could use your support. They are woefully weak compared to the US gov't at the moment. Also, North Korea. Maybe Finland should ally itself with the DPRK.

I'm sorry, but your "balance of power" scheme doesn't make as much sense as you think it does. Choosing the lesser of two evils is the smart choice.

[Aeternabilis]

Sounds good.
I hate the West, but I hate Russia more.

I don't know if you're actually Estonian or just like the place, but if you are, that's understandable. Illegal annexation of the nation and all that.