The Confederate battle flag

[Herador]

No, it symbolizes a Government that enslaved scores of people.

Scores? Rather understating things a bit, aren't we?

I couldn't remember the actual numbers off the top of my head and didn't want to grossly exaggerate.

[Xsyne]

Not everyone who has one is racist, y'know. There is always exceptions.

Not everyone is racist, but they're proud of a racist country. Which is damn near as bad, if you think about it.

Being proud of a country that stood for racism while not being racist might actually be worse. At least the racists have an excuse.

[Republic of Coldwater]

Not everyone who has one is racist, y'know. There is always exceptions.

Not everyone is racist, but they're proud of a racist country. Which is damn near as bad, if you think about it.

There are those who are proud of America, but America discriminated blacks until the 1960s, many people are proud of England, but they once were racist towards Indians and other indigenous people of the places they colonized. Some people are proud of Spain, but they killed off many Native Americans, some people are proud of Japan, but Japan killed a lot of people in World War II. Does that mean the people proud of America, England, Spain and Japan are also proud of racism?

[Herador]

Not everyone is racist, but they're proud of a racist country. Which is damn near as bad, if you think about it.

Being proud of a country that stood for racism while not being racist might actually be worse. At least the racists have an excuse.

I always figured it was a "My Dad had one, his Dad had one, and his Dad had one, so I'll have on too!" kinda thing. Not really terrible, just ill-informed.

Not everyone is racist, but they're proud of a racist country. Which is damn near as bad, if you think about it.

There are those who are proud of America, but America discriminated blacks until the 1960s, many people are proud of England, but they once were racist towards Indians and other indigenous people of the places they colonized. Some people are proud of Spain, but they killed off many Native Americans, some people are proud of Japan, but Japan killed a lot of people in World War II. Does that mean the people proud of America, England, Spain and Japan are also proud of racism?

They changed, the Confederacy didn't nor was it going to.

[Tel]

Fuck yes I can.

You appear to be one of those uncomfortably Pro-Confederacy people that say that "What the Confederacy did was BAD!" if you ask them, but then give them a chance and they'll turn tail and say that they can't be judged, it was them daggum Yankees' faults, yessir! They're responsible for my ancestors raping and killing people fer' bein' BROWN, AN' THEM BROWN PEOPLE'S STILL 'ROUND, SO Y'ALL GOT NO REASON T'COMPLEIN 'BOUT 'EM!

Easy now. When the all-caps come out, maybe it's time to take breath and step away.

I understand your concern, but I'm not an angry person and you understandably have no way of knowing that. I'm a firm believer that caps lock should be emphasis, not a hint at the emotions a person is feeling behind the monitor.

That said, I came off as a bit rabid there. I'll lay off.

[Farnhamia]

Not everyone is racist, but they're proud of a racist country. Which is damn near as bad, if you think about it.

There are those who are proud of America, but America discriminated blacks until the 1960s, many people are proud of England, but they once were racist towards Indians and other indigenous people of the places they colonized. Some people are proud of Spain, but they killed off many Native Americans, some people are proud of Japan, but Japan killed a lot of people in World War II. Does that mean the people proud of America, England, Spain and Japan are also proud of racism?

Tu quoque fallacy. Even if the people criticizing the Confederacy are being inconsistent or even hypocritical, the criticism is not necessarily invalid because of that.

[Ifreann]

Not everyone is racist, but they're proud of a racist country. Which is damn near as bad, if you think about it.

There are those who are proud of America, but America discriminated blacks until the 1960s, many people are proud of England, but they once were racist towards Indians and other indigenous people of the places they colonized. Some people are proud of Spain, but they killed off many Native Americans, some people are proud of Japan, but Japan killed a lot of people in World War II. Does that mean the people proud of America, England, Spain and Japan are also proud of racism?

America, England, Spain and Japan have centuries of history(millennia, excluding the US) with good and bad points, and persist to this day. The Confederacy started with a war to keep slavery and ended when they lost that war. It's reasonable for a person to take pride in one of those nations without supporting their less savoury actions. It is not reasonable for a person to take pride in the Confederacy and claim a complete disconnect from slavery.

[Republic of Coldwater]

There are those who are proud of America, but America discriminated blacks until the 1960s, many people are proud of England, but they once were racist towards Indians and other indigenous people of the places they colonized. Some people are proud of Spain, but they killed off many Native Americans, some people are proud of Japan, but Japan killed a lot of people in World War II. Does that mean the people proud of America, England, Spain and Japan are also proud of racism?

America, England, Spain and Japan have centuries of history(millennia, excluding the US) with good and bad points, and persist to this day. The Confederacy started with a war to keep slavery and ended when they lost that war. It's reasonable for a person to take pride in one of those nations without supporting their less savoury actions. It is not reasonable for a person to take pride in the Confederacy and claim a complete disconnect from slavery.

There were many reasons why the Confederates fought, and that includes Southern Secession and States Rights, so it makes sense for some to wave the Confederate Flag, for the sake of taking pride in secession and states rights. It can also be seen as a flag for the different Southern Culture. America has been very racist until a few decades ago, while remnants of racism can still be seen today. America is also invading the homeland of many countries, which can be seen as an offense. Why aren't we trying to ban the American Flag? Furthermore, flags can be interpreted in all sorts of ways. Just because some people used the Confederate Flag to support discrimination against blacks doesn't mean that everyone under it is supportive of racism and slavery.

[Edlichbury]

It can I suppose, but using the flag to be proud of the region carries the connotation you're proud of it because of some monstrous slave state that once used it as a banner. So at the end of it all, you're still proud of racism.

Not everyone who has one is racist, y'know. There is always exceptions.

So? If you are proud of a region that's greatest distinction within America is being the hotbed of racist activity, you're probably racist and implicitly condoning massive racism.

[Farnhamia]

America, England, Spain and Japan have centuries of history(millennia, excluding the US) with good and bad points, and persist to this day. The Confederacy started with a war to keep slavery and ended when they lost that war. It's reasonable for a person to take pride in one of those nations without supporting their less savoury actions. It is not reasonable for a person to take pride in the Confederacy and claim a complete disconnect from slavery.

There were many reasons why the Confederates fought, and that includes Southern Secession and States Rights, so it makes sense for some to wave the Confederate Flag, for the sake of taking pride in secession and states rights. It can also be seen as a flag for the different Southern Culture. America has been very racist until a few decades ago, while remnants of racism can still be seen today. America is also invading the homeland of many countries, which can be seen as an offense. Why aren't we trying to ban the American Flag? Furthermore, flags can be interpreted in all sorts of ways. Just because some people used the Confederate Flag to support discrimination against blacks doesn't mean that everyone under it is supportive of racism and slavery.

Seriously? That flag has been a symbol of treason and racism for a century and a half and you still want to try that excuse? That's like someone wearing an SS officer's uniform and saying, "Oh, I don't agree with anything the Nazis did but they had such cool uniforms." Find another symbol. Surely there is one that's not got the stain of slavery on it.

[Edlichbury]

America, England, Spain and Japan have centuries of history(millennia, excluding the US) with good and bad points, and persist to this day. The Confederacy started with a war to keep slavery and ended when they lost that war. It's reasonable for a person to take pride in one of those nations without supporting their less savoury actions. It is not reasonable for a person to take pride in the Confederacy and claim a complete disconnect from slavery.

There were many reasons why the Confederates fought, and that includes Southern Secession and States Rights, so it makes sense for some to wave the Confederate Flag, for the sake of taking pride in secession and states rights. It can also be seen as a flag for the different Southern Culture. America has been very racist until a few decades ago, while remnants of racism can still be seen today. America is also invading the homeland of many countries, which can be seen as an offense. Why aren't we trying to ban the American Flag? Furthermore, flags can be interpreted in all sorts of ways. Just because some people used the Confederate Flag to support discrimination against blacks doesn't mean that everyone under it is supportive of racism and slavery.

Cut the bullshit. Even the fucking Confederacy admitted the war was entirely about slavery. For people so gung ho about "State's Rights," they refused to acknowledge the rights of states to not have slavery and enshrined in the Confederate constitution that no states would be allowed to abolish slavery. Their leaders called the purpose of the war defending slavery. Their people wanted the war ton continue slavery. The secession movement started because of slavery.

THE ENTIRE WAR WAS ABOUT SLAVERY AND EVERY RESPECTABLE HISTORIAN AGREES ON THIS ISSUE.

[Herador]

There were many reasons why the Confederates fought, and that includes Southern Secession and States Rights, so it makes sense for some to wave the Confederate Flag, for the sake of taking pride in secession and states rights. It can also be seen as a flag for the different Southern Culture. America has been very racist until a few decades ago, while remnants of racism can still be seen today. America is also invading the homeland of many countries, which can be seen as an offense. Why aren't we trying to ban the American Flag? Furthermore, flags can be interpreted in all sorts of ways. Just because some people used the Confederate Flag to support discrimination against blacks doesn't mean that everyone under it is supportive of racism and slavery.

Seriously? That flag has been a symbol of treason and racism for a century and a half and you still want to try that excuse? That's like someone wearing an SS officer's uniform and saying, "Oh, I don't agree with anything the Nazis did but they had such cool uniforms." Find another symbol. Surely there is one that's not got the stain of slavery on it.

Another flag maybe? Perhaps one that denotes a specific area that is within a larger country that typically has a unique value all it's own that a person can be proud of belonging to? I wonder if such a thing exists?

[Tel]

A: States' Rights to own slaves, you mean.

That's what it was about.

B: Taking pride in secession because the North was trying to restrict their right to own slaves.

C: The different Southern culture built upon slavery, defending slavery and running on slavery, right?

D: Your point?

E: This does not excuse what the South did. See Ifreann's post.

Wait, you did.

You just didn't... I don't follow.

"Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition." -Alexander Stephens

I'm sad that this has to be quoted twice. Read it, Cold. Drink it in.

[Herador]

There were many reasons why the Confederates fought, and that includes Southern Secession and States Rights, so it makes sense for some to wave the Confederate Flag, for the sake of taking pride in secession and states rights. It can also be seen as a flag for the different Southern Culture. America has been very racist until a few decades ago, while remnants of racism can still be seen today. America is also invading the homeland of many countries, which can be seen as an offense. Why aren't we trying to ban the American Flag? Furthermore, flags can be interpreted in all sorts of ways. Just because some people used the Confederate Flag to support discrimination against blacks doesn't mean that everyone under it is supportive of racism and slavery.

Cut the bullshit. Even the fucking Confederacy admitted the war was entirely about slavery. For people so gung ho about "State's Rights," they refused to acknowledge the rights of states to not have slavery and enshrined in the Confederate constitution that no states would be allowed to abolish slavery. Their leaders called the purpose of the war defending slavery. Their people wanted the war ton continue slavery. The secession movement started because of slavery.

THE ENTIRE WAR WAS ABOUT SLAVERY AND EVERY RESPECTABLE HISTORIAN AGREES ON THIS ISSUE.

Nah man, states rights though.

[Tel]

...You're joking, right, Hera?

You are joking, are you not?

Come on, give me something here.

[Herador]

...You're joking, right, Hera?

You are joking, are you not?

Come on, give me something here.

Probably joking. I don't know what post(s) you're referring to, but if it's the last two, then yes.

[Tel]

...You're joking, right, Hera?

You are joking, are you not?

Come on, give me something here.

Probably joking. I don't know what post(s) you're referring to, but if it's the last two, then yes.

Oh, thank heavens.

I have trouble telling sometimes, you know?

Especially in threads like this.

Edit: For the record, I didn't quote because I didn't want to create a box-in-a-box-in-a-box-in-a-box-in-a-box-of-boxes-within-a-box wall of quote that stings the eyes and sours the soul.

[Herador]

Probably joking. I don't know what post(s) you're referring to, but if it's the last two, then yes.

Oh, thank heavens.

I have trouble telling sometimes, you know?

Especially in threads like this.

Sure sure, it's understandable.

[Kelinfort]

It represents treason and slavery. It doesn't offend me in any way. But I can see why it offends other people.

And yes, I'm well aware the US rebelled against the British Empire and this was quite similar.

[Liberaxia]

I'm not someone who really minds seeing it, so I don't have a problem with seeing people flying it. It's usually the mouthbreathers who are arrogant about it. Just remember to fly it below the American flag to show your subservience to support for the country.

[Ifreann]

America, England, Spain and Japan have centuries of history(millennia, excluding the US) with good and bad points, and persist to this day. The Confederacy started with a war to keep slavery and ended when they lost that war. It's reasonable for a person to take pride in one of those nations without supporting their less savoury actions. It is not reasonable for a person to take pride in the Confederacy and claim a complete disconnect from slavery.

There were many reasons why the Confederates fought,

And ultimately those reasons all boil down to keeping blacks as slaves.

and that includes Southern Secession and States Rights, so it makes sense for some to wave the Confederate Flag, for the sake of taking pride in secession and states rights. It can also be seen as a flag for the different Southern Culture. America has been very racist until a few decades ago, while remnants of racism can still be seen today. America is also invading the homeland of many countries, which can be seen as an offense. Why aren't we trying to ban the American Flag?

Are you under the impression that someone is trying to ban the Confederate flag?

Furthermore, flags can be interpreted in all sorts of ways. Just because some people used the Confederate Flag to support discrimination against blacks doesn't mean that everyone under it is supportive of racism and slavery.

And shouting "I HATE NIGGERS" on the street corner doesn't necessarily mean that the person shouting is a racist. They just really, really look like one.

[Farnhamia]

A: States' Rights to own slaves, you mean.

That's what it was about.

B: Taking pride in secession because the North was trying to restrict their right to own slaves.

C: The different Southern culture built upon slavery, defending slavery and running on slavery, right?

D: Your point?

E: This does not excuse what the South did. See Ifreann's post.

Wait, you did.

You just didn't... I don't follow.

"Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition." -Alexander Stephens

I'm sad that this has to be quoted twice. Read it, Cold. Drink it in.

As to point B, the Federal government had done nothing to restrict anyone's right to own slaves. In fact, the Fugitive Slave Act of 1850 required Federal officials to aid slave owners in recovering their property. Some states did try to ameliorate the effects of the Act but the Supreme Court generally shot them down. There was even the case of Lemmon v. New York which might have brought down all state laws declaring slaves within their territories free, except the Southerners ran out of patience and panicked at the election of Abraham Lincoln. Had they waited they might have found the entire country opened up to slavery and the "Southern way of life."

[Farnhamia]

It represents treason and slavery. It doesn't offend me in any way. But I can see why it offends other people.

And yes, I'm well aware the US rebelled against the British Empire and this was quite similar.

Except the American Revolution was about Britons in the colonies wanting to participate in the government of their homes and to have their full rights as citizens of the British Empire, whereas the men who tried to take the South out of the Union did so from a fear of losing their political clout. They already had all the rights of American citizens, they just didn't like the way politics were playing out in the mid-19th century. Lincoln ran on a platform of no new slave states, which would mean that the South would eventually be outvoted in Congress should the issue come up.

[Americanada]

The Hammer and Sickle led to murder, genocide, and violation of basic human rights yet it is flown around worldwide today without complaint. I believe that the Confederate Flag, which was a rallying cause for state's rights and liberties, is hardly a messenger of hate. It is an integral part of Southern History and Heritage, and if they wish to fly it around as a symbol of that history and heritage, that is perfectly fine with me.

Soon-to-be Confederate states supported the Fugitive Slave Law, which allowed Southern state laws regarding slavery to be enforced in free states (hence why escaped slaves had to start fleeing to Canada rather than the nearest state that banned slavery), and the Dredd Scott Decision made it illegal for a state to change from a slave-state to a free-state. Both of those infringements upon "states' rights" were supported by the states that later joined the CSA. The Declarations of Causes of Secession each state made were drenched in references to slavery. For example, here is an excrept of Georgia's Declaration of Causes of Secession.

"The people of Georgia having dissolved their political connection with the Government of the United States of America, present to their confederates and the world the causes which have led to the separation. For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our non-slave-holding confederate States with reference to the subject of African slavery."

Mississippi:

"Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun."

South Carolina:

"We affirm that these ends for which this Government was instituted have been defeated, and the Government itself has been made destructive of them by the action of the non-slaveholding States. Those States have assume the right of deciding upon the propriety of our domestic institutions; and have denied the rights of property established in fifteen of the States and recognized by the Constitution; they have denounced as sinful the institution of slavery; they have permitted open establishment among them of societies, whose avowed object is to disturb the peace and to eloign the property of the citizens of other States. They have encouraged and assisted thousands of our slaves to leave their homes; and those who remain, have been incited by emissaries, books and pictures to servile insurrection."

And, despite Colonel Sam Houston's best efforts, Texas:

"Texas abandoned her separate national existence and consented to become one of the Confederated Union...She was received into the confederacy...as a commonwealth holding, maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery-- the servitude of the African to the white race within her limits-- a relation that had existed from the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race, and which her people intended should exist in all future time. In all the non-slave-holding States...the people have formed themselves into a great sectional party...based upon an unnatural feeling of hostility to these Southern States and their beneficent and patriarchal system of African slavery, proclaiming the debasing doctrine of equality of all men, irrespective of race or color-- a doctrine at war with nature, in opposition to the experience of mankind, and in violation of the plainest revelations of Divine Law. They demand the abolition of negro slavery throughout the confederacy, the recognition of political equality between the white and negro races, and avow their determination to press on their crusade against us, so long as a negro slave remains in these States ...all white men are and of right ought to be entitled to equal civil and political rights; that the servitude of the African race, as existing in these States, is mutually beneficial to both bond and free, and is abundantly authorized and justified by the experience of mankind, and the revealed will of the Almighty Creator, as recognized by all Christian nations..."

This very unflattering, high-definition picture of the CSA and those who try to white-wash it is only cemented by the 1861 "Cornerstone Speech" by VP of the CSA Alexander Stephens.

"The new Constitution has put at rest forever all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institutions—African slavery as it exists among us—the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson, in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the 'rock upon which the old Union would split.' He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact. But whether he fully comprehended the great truth upon which that rock stood and stands, may be doubted. The prevailing ideas entertained by him and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old Constitution were, that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally and politically. It was an evil they knew not well how to deal with; but the general opinion of the men of that day was, that, somehow or other, in the order of Providence, the institution would be evanescent and pass away... Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the idea of a Government built upon it—when the 'storm came and the wind blew, it fell.' Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and moral condition."

On occasion, Confederate leaders said states' rights were a reason for the Civil War. Significantly more often, slavery was defined as a moral duty and as an economic need. Even when the "state's rights" excuse was used, it is pretty hypocritical coming from the states that supported the previously mentioned Fugitive Slave Law and the Dredd Scott Decision, which were easily called infringements of "states' rights" so long as the infringement on "state's rights" supported their white supremacist viewpoints in confirming that African Americans are not Americans or people.

Never say that the Civil War was not about maintaining white-supremacy but "state's rights". The huge support in the South pre-Confederacy for Fugitive State Law and the Dredd Scott Decision destroy that concept already. It shows how nebulous it is to introduce a concept introduced in 1960's politics into the biggest event of the 1860's is pure folly.

Worst of all, you sully the entire region by having the unbridled gal to insult the entire South by suggesting that four years of being ruled by loud-mouthed white supremacists defines Southern culture rather than, say, the Era of Good Feelings, Reconstruction, or the New Deal, all of which involved major changes that have shaped the southern United States' culture and infrastructure to this day.

[Kelinfort]

It represents treason and slavery. It doesn't offend me in any way. But I can see why it offends other people.

And yes, I'm well aware the US rebelled against the British Empire and this was quite similar.

Except the American Revolution was about Britons in the colonies wanting to participate in the government of their homes and to have their full rights as citizens of the British Empire, whereas the men who tried to take the South out of the Union did so from a fear of losing their political clout. They already had all the rights of American citizens, they just didn't like the way politics were playing out in the mid-19th century. Lincoln ran on a platform of no new slave states, which would mean that the South would eventually be outvoted in Congress should the issue come up.

Yes, which is why the comparison is bonkers. But oh well.