[PASSED] Liberate Liberal Haven

[Cormac A Stark]

The Security Council,

Recognizing that Liberal Haven is a peaceful region with a native community which has not engaged in any act of aggression against any other region;

Condemning the multi-regional force which has invaded and occupied Liberal Haven;

Observing that the occupying force has barred free entry to Liberal Haven for the purpose of purging its native community and taking permanent control of the region;

Noting that the invasion and occupation of Liberal Haven has been motivated by the reprehensible and hateful ideology espoused by the occupying force, which deserves no recognition by name from this Security Council;

Asserting that it is the responsibility of the Security Council to remove the barriers preventing liberation of Liberal Haven and to do everything in its power to thwart the occupying force:

Hereby Liberates Liberal Haven.

My apologies to Applebania for submitting this so quickly, but Liberations run on a ticking clock and I didn't think this could afford to wait. This hopefully addresses the concerns in regard to giving RWU attention in the Security Council, at least to a degree: They will no longer get the name of their organization, nor any of its member regions, nor even their lead on the books of the Security Council.

To those who claim there are no natives or the native community is so small that the region is irrelevant: 1) See Liberate Christmas. 2) We don't know how many natives there actually are, but the bottom line is that RWU has no legitimate claim to the region and if there is even one legitimate native, that native has the right to stay in his or her region and not have it dismissed as irrelevant by those who want to bury their heads in the sand and wish Nazis away really hard.

[Venico]

Still against, even if it is Nazis. Sorry C.

[SkyDip]

Still against, even if it is Nazis. Sorry C.

Concur.

[Goddess Relief Office]

To those who claim there are no natives or the native community is so small that the region is irrelevant: 1) See Liberate Christmas. 2) We don't know how many natives there actually are, but the bottom line is that RWU has no legitimate claim to the region and if there is even one legitimate native, that native has the right to stay in his or her region and not have it dismissed as irrelevant by those who want to bury their heads in the sand and wish Nazis away really hard.

I will agree with your second point on principle. In practice, it's very difficult to expect the SC to liberate every single region that's targeted by invaders. I note that you have listed Christmas as an example of a region with tiny population that was previously liberated by SC, to justify the case for Liberal Haven. Yet the comparison is tenuous at best. Christmas was a different case. The region had significance because of its name. Prior to it being attacked, there was a tradition of nations visiting the region around December each year to pay homage, and it was reasonable to expect the tradition will continue well into the future if SC liberated it. In addition, even if Christmas had a tiny native population at the point of liberation, there was a chance that it could grow organically to gain population, much like how Europe attracts nations without recruitment effort. Unfortunately, the same could not be said of Liberal Haven. It has one or two natives left at this point. The founder was DOS by Mods and can never be revived. The chance of it attracting new nations naturally is near zero without some kind of recruitment campaign. If anyone wanted to join a similarly themed region they would probably pick "A Liberal Haven" --the real McCoy founded in antiquity with a community.

Liberal Haven is not the same as Christmas.

[Cormac A Stark]

Still against, even if it is Nazis. Sorry C.

Concur.

Why?

I get Venico's opposition, because he opposes all Liberation resolutions. Your position is that Nazis shouldn't be given more attention, not that you oppose all Liberation resolutions. This gives them minimal attention, including not even naming them, so why are you still opposing it? Is it seriously your view that Nazis should be free to do whatever they like in NationStates with no response from the rest of the community, even if their behavior is impacting other players, just to avoid giving them any attention? Where do we draw a line?

I will agree with your second point on principle. In practice, it's very difficult to expect the SC to liberate every single region that's targeted by invaders.

I'll concede the argument regarding Christmas, as you made valid points and it was probably a poor comparison to draw. I do understand that it's difficult to expect the Security Council to liberate every region targeted by invaders -- in most cases I oppose the Security Council's intervention anyway, it's no secret that I'm involved here because these invaders are Nazis. In this case, though, the Security Council isn't doing anything else right now and it's very possible for it to liberate this region.

Thank you for approving the proposal, by the way.

[SkyDip]

Just because the region is old doesn't mean it's worth a Liberation. And that's all I see here. No importance to the outside world besides that.

[SkyDip]

While we're on the subject of poor reasoning, since when has "Well there's nothing else to vote on!" become a solid argument for pushing Liberations through on such inane regions?

[Cormac A Stark]

Just because the region is old doesn't mean it's worth a Liberation. And that's all I see here. No importance to the outside world besides that.

The region isn't even that old, by my understanding. The reason to liberate the region is because it has at least one native, possibly more, the native(s) will soon be purged from the region, and it will be placed under permanent control of Nazis. We as a community should stand up to that.

It's one thing to argue, as you've quite successfully argued, that invading Nazi and Fascist regions gives them unnecessary attention when we should be seeking to isolate them. It's quite another to argue that we should decline to respond when their behavior impacts other NationStates players, as it's impacting them here. Again, where do we draw a line? Do we do something about it if it's 5, 10, 20 players? How many affected players make it acceptable to give Nazis the bare minimum attention necessary to free a region that doesn't belong to them from their permanent control? In my view, just one player makes it acceptable.

While we're on the subject of poor reasoning, since when has "Well there's nothing else to vote on!" become a solid argument for pushing Liberations through on such inane regions?

As you see, that isn't my reasoning. That was specifically a response to GRO's probably accurate assertion that the Security Council can't liberate every region. That may be true, generally, but it isn't true here.

My reasoning for this Liberaton is that we should liberate this region because we shouldn't allow Nazi and Fascist behavior to negatively affect other NationStates players, all for the sake of not giving Nazis even the most minimal attention necessary in order to stop their behavior.

[Venico]

Riddle me this Brother. What makes this raid different than any other? I understand that these are Nazis (or at least people roleplaying them), but why should the SC care specifically about Nazis refounding an irrelevant region vs. another raider group? This isn't RL where they have committed genocide and oppressed millions of people. In NS they have been rather...annoying? But nothing so reprehensible that the SC should stop them at every turn.

I'm not trying to say "We shouldn't care." I just want you and resolution to tell me why we SHOULD care.

[Goddess Relief Office]

I'll concede the argument regarding Christmas, as you made valid points and it was probably a poor comparison to draw. I do understand that it's difficult to expect the Security Council to liberate every region targeted by invaders -- in most cases I oppose the Security Council's intervention anyway, it's no secret that I'm involved here because these invaders are Nazis. In this case, though, the Security Council isn't doing anything else right now and it's very possible for it to liberate this region.

Thank you for approving the proposal, by the way.

I don't oppose lib resolutions unless they are poorly written, riddled with mistruths, or used to reduce sovereignty. Physically libbing with a nation is a different story though. I'm not gonna stay up waiting for update for this.

[Cormac A Stark]

Riddle me this Brother. What makes this raid different than any other? I understand that these are Nazis (or at least people roleplaying them), but why should the SC care specifically about Nazis refounding an irrelevant region vs. another raider group? This isn't RL where they have committed genocide and oppressed millions of people. In NS they have been rather...annoying? But nothing so reprehensible that the SC should stop them at every turn.

I'm not trying to say "We shouldn't care." I just want you and resolution to tell me why we SHOULD care.

The resolution isn't going to explain that because the resolution is written to address the concerns of those who thought the prior proposal gave Nazis too much attention.

I'll explain here, though. What makes this invasion different from normal invasions is that the invaders are Nazis. That can't be separated out as if it doesn't matter. Their ideology is reprehensible and their ideology is what motivates them to take aggressive action against other regions, either to promote their ideology by seizing random regions and defacing their WFEs with their propaganda or or to attack those whom their ideology dictates they should hate and attack (in this case, liberals).

Raiders have an in-game ideology behind their in-game actions. Nazi invaders are acting on an insidious real life ideology and using in-game actions to promote and advance that ideology. That's the difference.

I don't oppose lib resolutions unless they are poorly written, riddled with mistruths, or used to reduce sovereignty. Physically libbing with a nation is a different story though. I'm not gonna stay up waiting for update for this.

Understood. I think it would be worth the effort just to get their garbage off the WFE, regardless of the number of natives, but that's just me. What's important to me is passing this resolution to prevent them from easily refounding or just locking down this region; what defenders do with the opportunity presented by the removal of a password is up to them, and I'm not going to tell them how to run their operations. I do hope the region will be militarily liberated once this passes though.

[SkyDip]

I'll explain here, though. What makes this invasion different from normal invasions is that the invaders are Nazis. That can't be separated out as if it doesn't matter. Their ideology is reprehensible and their ideology is what motivates them to take aggressive action against other regions, either to promote their ideology by seizing random regions and defacing their WFEs with their propaganda or or to attack those whom their ideology dictates they should hate and attack (in this case, liberals).

I see no "[promoting] their ideology" in Liberal Haven. I do see "[attacking] those whom their ideology dictates they should hate and attack." Please explain to me how this is different from non-Nazi raiders attacking defenders or vice versa. Because, to me, it just looks like a normal raid that happened to be conducted by an IRL ideology you are transposing to a non-IRL circumstance.

[Cormac A Stark]

I see no "[promoting] their ideology" in Liberal Haven. I do see "[attacking] those whom their ideology dictates they should hate and attack." Please explain to me how this is different from non-Nazi raiders attacking defenders or vice versa. Because, to me, it just looks like a normal raid that happened to be conducted by an IRL ideology you are transposing to a non-IRL circumstance.

The difference is that raiders don't advocate the real life mass extermination of other people. They don't advocate actual, real life hatred and abuse of defenders. They're playing the game, not imposing a real life ideology that none of us should tolerate onto the game.

[Darwinish Brentsylvania]

We need to liberate the region, and we need to ASAP.

[SkyDip]

The difference is that raiders don't advocate the real life mass extermination of other people. They don't advocate actual, real life hatred and abuse of defenders. They're playing the game, not imposing a real life ideology that none of us should tolerate onto the game.

So again, you're transposing an IRL ideology to the game. This region is suddenly important because the guy clicking the mouse behind the screen happens to have a view you disagree with? I'm not buying that train of thought.

[Venico]

I haven't seen them advocating for the RL extermination of anyone on the RMB or WFE.

[Cormac A Stark]

So again, you're transposing an IRL ideology to the game. This region is suddenly important because the guy clicking the mouse behind the screen happens to have a view you disagree with? I'm not buying that train of thought.

They are transposing a RL ideology onto the game; I am reacting. And no, this isn't just somebody who "happens to have a view I disagree with." This isn't a group of country club Republicans who like to keep their taxes low, the better to keep their yachts pristine. These are Nazis.

This region isn't important to me at all. The player(s) in it are important to me because I don't think any player in this game should be negatively affected by Nazi behavior that NationStates administration shouldn't even tolerate, and I'm not going to apologize for that. Nobody in a founderless region should have the expectation that they won't have to participate in the R/D conflict, as the R/D conflict is fundamental to the game. Every NationStates player, and every human being in any setting, should be able to have the expectation that they won't have to be harassed by Nazis, and given that the game administration won't act to make that a reality I'm completely comfortable with using game mechanics to help players being harassed by Nazis.

I haven't seen them advocating for the RL extermination of anyone on the RMB or WFE.

National Socialism advocates that, they are National Socialists. Of course they aren't openly advocating it on-site, they'd be deleted.

[Venico]

Well if they're not doing it on site then I don't see a reason to combat them over petty things on site. I wish you good luck, and I hope you are satisfied with the result you get. *tips hat*

[Applebania]

Cormac, there's no reason to apologise, your version is way better than mine, and it's also on the way to Quorum. Honestly, I'm thankful, as my goal of liberating the region has been achieved!

[SkyDip]

I guess we fundamentally disagree that this region is under some type of ideological assault wherein their moral fabrics are being torn by the heathenous invaders. I don't see it at all.

[Haritopia]

I see no "[promoting] their ideology" in Liberal Haven. I do see "[attacking] those whom their ideology dictates they should hate and attack." Please explain to me how this is different from non-Nazi raiders attacking defenders or vice versa. Because, to me, it just looks like a normal raid that happened to be conducted by an IRL ideology you are transposing to a non-IRL circumstance.

The difference is that raiders don't advocate the real life mass extermination of other people. They don't advocate actual, real life hatred and abuse of defenders. They're playing the game, not imposing a real life ideology that none of us should tolerate onto the game.

Ehmm... Real life mass extermination? Abuse?
Your proof for these claims are?

Further more, indeed, what makes this a more pressing matter than the liberation of other regions?

[Coraxion]

Moral Dilemma

Legislation Option 1: Real life Person Behind Cora says: Crush those Nazis using what ever means possible, including WA-SC Liberation.

Legistlation Option 2: Ghost of Proletaurus whispers: Let the Antifa be that good there will be enough WA-members online for direct frontal attack against that Nafu groupings. #Whisper Silenced by self critisism and NS-Moderation.

Legistlation Potion 3 (magical) : In-Game Cimmerian Warrior Princess Cora says: Responsibility what happened is only native Founder's. If someone can organize effective assault against that line, be my quest. If it is defensive, I won't take a part.

-> Potion 3 further comments by Voice of Ghost of Proletaurus "Good. Let nafu goons (said in 'friendly' tone) tie their army's resources to that dump (it is that). That way Enemies of nazis Doesn't have to bother for a while what enemy does and wonder where it is. After all, they are liberals, thus expendables..."

-> Potion 3 replies to Option 2: You are ridiculous! Gather and organize that Imaginary people for the attack before saying anything about the issue on the Security Council thread... and remember For A Sake of Crom everything what is ever said in these esteemed Halls is irrelevant, if they are not enforced by In-Game Actions.

[Acadienne]

Whilst I realise that this is only a guide I find it most offensive that some are prepared to distort the right of any and every region to benefit from the safety net that a Liberation can provide


From the top by the numbers:

"Is there a password on the region"
Yes
"Does the Region have any living natives"
Yes
"is the password imposed by a Founder"
No
"Is the region or the community threatened by the password"
Yes
"A liberation may be appropriate"

Whether a region is deserving of a Liberation is surely not something that enters into the equation if we accept the very principle behind them:

Liberation resolutions were introduced as a way of combating region destruction carried out behind a password. A liberation resolution, when passed, will remove any delegate imposed password on the target region, and prevent a password being imposed in the future by any delegate of that region. They can not be used to remove founder-imposed passwords, or the founder's ability to password a region in the future. However, Liberation resolutions can still be proposed for regions that do have founders.

An assertion that a region is not worthy of a liberation based on an arbitrary and undefined set of criteria (eg size, age, significance) is a perversion of the procedure

[SkyDip]

An assertion that a region is not worthy of a liberation based on an arbitrary and undefined set of criteria (eg size, age, significance) is a perversion of the procedure

As opposed to this arbitrary and undefined graphic created by one of the most pro-defender nations the world has seen.

Of course it's arbitrary. You act like you're the first person to discover that - gasp! - not everyone has the same criteria for what should/should not be Liberated. Cormac wouldn't even glance sideways at this region if it weren't for the involvement of the Nazis, and I think most would agree with him.

[Haritopia]

And what about for instance the Fascist and Imperialist Union
It was occupied, attacked on the basis of "real life ideologies", it's members driven out... Why dont you fight for it's liberation as well? It is the same reasoning as for liberating the LH