Ukraine Crisis II: Electric Boogaloo

[Costa Fierro]

Thanks for parroting the sentiment back to me.

Hit the proverbial nail on the head.

This newfound anti-election sentiment is meant to play into Russian propagandists' hands:
1) If elections are delayed, Russia can continue to criticize Ukraine's government, calling it a fascist junta who overthrew the democratically elected leaders of Ukraine and so on.
2) If elections are held, the junta is simply holding a show election to please the West and appear democratic.

Elections would give the new government legitimacy, so I suspect the Kremlin would prefer the first scenario. It would give them more time and leverage to agitate the situation in the east.

There's also the whole "postponement" of the referendum in the east also.

[Limborg]

You called them fascists when they are neo-Nazis. They aren't fascists.

They aren't explicitly neo-Nazis, as that would imply endorsing concepts of "Aryan"/Germanic racial superiority and purity. They may have Nazi tendencies, but they are more fascist and nationalistic.

Just like one of those guys ad Maiden said in a video, "We aren't like Hitler, but we are simular in our own way"

[Limborg]

Elections would give the new government legitimacy

How would it? one third of the country wouldn't or wouldn't be able to vote at all... How could anyone call it legitimate elections?
No elections will be legit as long as the chaos continues.

[Lemanrussland]

Elections would give the new government legitimacy

How would it? one third of the country wouldn't or wouldn't be able to vote at all... How could anyone call it legitimate elections?
No elections will be legit as long as the chaos continues.

Which is why it's essential that the government re-establish order in the east.

Of course, when it tries to do that Russia moans and screams about "fascists killing their own people" and so on. The current situation (interim government which is accused of being a fascist junta, chaos in the east) is advantageous to Russia.

[Estruia]

Elections would give the new government legitimacy

How would it? one third of the country wouldn't or wouldn't be able to vote at all... How could anyone call it legitimate elections?
No elections will be legit as long as the chaos continues.

Eastern Ukraine has made it abundantly clear they do not wish to be part of Ukraine. You can't call for the separation of East from West, and still get to vote in Kiev's election.

[Lemanrussland]

How would it? one third of the country wouldn't or wouldn't be able to vote at all... How could anyone call it legitimate elections?
No elections will be legit as long as the chaos continues.

Eastern Ukraine has made it abundantly clear they do not wish to be part of Ukraine. You can't call for the separation of East from West, and still get to vote in Kiev's election.

A very vocal, violent minority of East Ukraine, yes.

The majority of people don't want to separate from Ukraine, they just dislike the current government.

[Estruia]

Eastern Ukraine has made it abundantly clear they do not wish to be part of Ukraine. You can't call for the separation of East from West, and still get to vote in Kiev's election.

A very vocal, violent minority of East Ukraine, yes.

The majority of people don't want to separate from Ukraine, they just dislike the current government.

I don't see Eastern Ukrainians doing everything they can to disarm or denounce the rebels who have taken over several cities. :/

[Neoconstantius]

A very vocal, violent minority of East Ukraine, yes.

The majority of people don't want to separate from Ukraine, they just dislike the current government.

I don't see Eastern Ukrainians doing everything they can to disarm or denounce the rebels who have taken over several cities. :/

That's because there's strong anti-junta sentiment. The majority may not be pro-unification, but they do likely endorse resistance to the current Kiev government.

[Estruia]

I don't see Eastern Ukrainians doing everything they can to disarm or denounce the rebels who have taken over several cities. :/

That's because there's strong anti-junta sentiment. The majority may not be pro-unification, but they do likely endorse resistance to the current Kiev government.

Except, it isn't a Junta, nor is it any sort of undemocratic organization. If it was either of those, they would never have suggested elections in the first place. Egypt, post-Tahrir revolution, was a junta. Ukraine is not.

[Neoconstantius]

That's because there's strong anti-junta sentiment. The majority may not be pro-unification, but they do likely endorse resistance to the current Kiev government.

Except, it isn't a Junta, nor is it any sort of undemocratic organization. If it was either of those, they would never have suggested elections in the first place. Egypt, post-Tahrir revolution, was a junta. Ukraine is not.

Semantics.

That's not the point anyways. It is apparent that the current authorities do not have much support in the East, or there would be some type of manifest resistance to the rebel forces.

[Limborg]

Eastern Ukraine has made it abundantly clear they do not wish to be part of Ukraine. You can't call for the separation of East from West, and still get to vote in Kiev's election.

A very vocal, violent minority of East Ukraine, yes.

The majority of people don't want to separate from Ukraine, they just dislike the current government.

vocal, violent minority? source?

[Limborg]

How would it? one third of the country wouldn't or wouldn't be able to vote at all... How could anyone call it legitimate elections?
No elections will be legit as long as the chaos continues.

Eastern Ukraine has made it abundantly clear they do not wish to be part of Ukraine. You can't call for the separation of East from West, and still get to vote in Kiev's election.

Well, in that case Ukraine should grant them independence, wich they refuse do to, and so long it is still part of Ukraine and so they still have the right to vote in Ukrainian election.

[Limborg]

How would it? one third of the country wouldn't or wouldn't be able to vote at all... How could anyone call it legitimate elections?
No elections will be legit as long as the chaos continues.

Which is why it's essential that the government re-establish order in the east.

Of course, when it tries to do that Russia moans and screams about "fascists killing their own people" and so on. The current situation (interim government which is accused of being a fascist junta, chaos in the east) is advantageous to Russia.

It is essential, but by what means? Killing people is not going to solve anything and it will only make things worse. In fact, the Ukrianian goverment has done little to nothing to de-escalate the whole situation in the east. Russia has a good point in this and the west should start listening to it if they actually want peace in Ukraine, but i don't think the west has much intrests in that.

[Limborg]

A very vocal, violent minority of East Ukraine, yes.

The majority of people don't want to separate from Ukraine, they just dislike the current government.

I don't see Eastern Ukrainians doing everything they can to disarm or denounce the rebels who have taken over several cities. :/

Do you see the Ukrainian goverment granting Amnesty to the self defense forces? no, so why should they disarm. The Ukrainian goverment is the one that should set the right example, but it fails do to so in every possible way.

[Limborg]

That's because there's strong anti-junta sentiment. The majority may not be pro-unification, but they do likely endorse resistance to the current Kiev government.

Except, it isn't a Junta, nor is it any sort of undemocratic organization. If it was either of those, they would never have suggested elections in the first place. Egypt, post-Tahrir revolution, was a junta. Ukraine is not.

Hang on,
Ukraine is not a Junta becouse they get elections.
Egypt is a Junta becouse they get elections.

What isn't right about this?

Besides, what happend in Ukraine was pretty undemocratic. Those people could also just have waited for the upcoming elections wich weren't far away, but no, they had to ruin the inner city and they had to kill people becouse you know, they couldn't wait a few months.

[Estruia]

Except, it isn't a Junta, nor is it any sort of undemocratic organization. If it was either of those, they would never have suggested elections in the first place. Egypt, post-Tahrir revolution, was a junta. Ukraine is not.

Hang on,
Ukraine is not a Junta becouse they get elections.
Egypt is a Junta becouse they get elections.

What isn't right about this?

Clearly you aren't that knowledgeable on the Post-Revolution state of Egypt.

Let me tell you a thing, yeah?

Post-Revolution, Egypt was literally ruled by a Military Council. That is why they were a junta.

[Limborg]

Hang on,
Ukraine is not a Junta becouse they get elections.
Egypt is a Junta becouse they get elections.

What isn't right about this?

Clearly you aren't that knowledgeable on the Post-Revolution state of Egypt.

Let me tell you a thing, yeah?

Post-Revolution, Egypt was literally ruled by a Military Council. That is why they were a junta.

Yeah, untill an interem goverment was formed, wich btw didn't took that long.
Perhaps Ukraine is not a Junta, but it most certainly is undemocratic by all means.

[Occupied Deutschland]

Clearly you aren't that knowledgeable on the Post-Revolution state of Egypt.

Let me tell you a thing, yeah?

Post-Revolution, Egypt was literally ruled by a Military Council. That is why they were a junta.

Yeah, untill an interem goverment was formed, wich btw didn't took that long.
Perhaps Ukraine is not a Junta, but it most certainly is undemocratic by all means.

Not all that much so. The Rada is still in session, and they were elected democratically. They have appointed an interim President/Prime-Minister to keep the state running, and scheduled elections for a very early date from the time they appointed the President/Prime-Minister.

The Executive portion of Ukrainian government is the only one with any notion of undemocratic happenings to it. Undemocratic happenings which matter less (the 2004 Constitution Ukraine returned to supposedly garners fewer powers in the Executive branch than it previously held under Yanu, though I'm not an expert on the particulars) and which are being actively sought to be corrected via the early Presidential election.

[Estruia]

Clearly you aren't that knowledgeable on the Post-Revolution state of Egypt.

Let me tell you a thing, yeah?

Post-Revolution, Egypt was literally ruled by a Military Council. That is why they were a junta.

Yeah, untill an interem goverment was formed, wich btw didn't took that long.
Perhaps Ukraine is not a Junta, but it most certainly is undemocratic by all means.

It didn't take that long? It was over six months before an Interim Government was chosen by the SCAF. Everything about that was undemocratic. However, your lack of knowledge on the situation is beside the point.

The point is that the Government of Ukraine is legitimate. They were all democratically elected, and with being elected comes certain responsibilities. Those include appointing a new PM and President should the previous Government be unable to fulfill their duties.

[Imperial Nilfgaard]

Hang on,
Ukraine is not a Junta becouse they get elections.
Egypt is a Junta becouse they get elections.

What isn't right about this?

Clearly you aren't that knowledgeable on the Post-Revolution state of Egypt.

Let me tell you a thing, yeah?

Post-Revolution, Egypt was literally ruled by a Military Council. That is why they were a junta.

Egypt was certainly ruled by a junta, then a provisional government, then an Islamist buffoon and now a junta again (tho this time it has popular support and soon we will finally have a real government under the wise direction of al-Sisi).

Anyway Kiev is also a junta because in effect it is ruled by undemocratic technocrats who gained and maintain their power through force.

[Costa Fierro]

Clearly you aren't that knowledgeable on the Post-Revolution state of Egypt.

Let me tell you a thing, yeah?

Post-Revolution, Egypt was literally ruled by a Military Council. That is why they were a junta.

Egypt was certainly ruled by a junta, then a provisional government, then an Islamist buffoon and now a junta again (tho this time it has popular support and soon we will finally have a real government under the wise direction of al-Sisi).

Anyway Kiev is also a junta because in effect it is ruled by undemocratic technocrats who gained and maintain their power through force.

What force is this? The Ukrainian government has barely any control over Western districts and no control over the east.

[Imperial Nilfgaard]

Egypt was certainly ruled by a junta, then a provisional government, then an Islamist buffoon and now a junta again (tho this time it has popular support and soon we will finally have a real government under the wise direction of al-Sisi).

Anyway Kiev is also a junta because in effect it is ruled by undemocratic technocrats who gained and maintain their power through force.

What force is this? The Ukrainian government has barely any control over Western districts and no control over the east.

To gain power: They rode into power after militants including right sector toppled the last government.
To maintain power: The "Anti-Terrorist Operation" against their own citizens.

[Estruia]

Clearly you aren't that knowledgeable on the Post-Revolution state of Egypt.

Let me tell you a thing, yeah?

Post-Revolution, Egypt was literally ruled by a Military Council. That is why they were a junta.

Egypt was certainly ruled by a junta, then a provisional government, then an Islamist buffoon and now a junta again (tho this time it has popular support and soon we will finally have a real government under the wise direction of al-Sisi).

Anyway Kiev is also a junta because in effect it is ruled by undemocratic technocrats who gained and maintain their power through force.

You really don't know what you're talking about, Nilf. A Junta is a military group that holds power by force, after using said force to take that power. Since everyone in the Verkhovna Rada was democratically elected by ALL of Ukraine, they aren't undemocratic, even in the slightest.

As you said before in the old thread, you are purposely twisting things with your own hatred and bias to further your own political goals. Go be a failed Machiavellian elsewhere.

[Independent Canterbury]

Egypt was certainly ruled by a junta, then a provisional government, then an Islamist buffoon and now a junta again (tho this time it has popular support and soon we will finally have a real government under the wise direction of al-Sisi).

Anyway Kiev is also a junta because in effect it is ruled by undemocratic technocrats who gained and maintain their power through force.

You really don't know what you're talking about, Nilf. A Junta is a military group that holds power by force, after using said force to take that power. Since everyone in the Verkhovna Rada was democratically elected by ALL of Ukraine, they aren't undemocratic, even in the slightest.

As you said before in the old thread, you are purposely twisting things with your own hatred and bias to further your own political goals. Go be a failed Machiavellian elsewhere.

junta
Line breaks: junta
Pronunciation: /ˈdʒʌntə
1A military or political group that rules a country after taking power by force.
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/defin ... lish/junta


A Junta does not have to be a military group.

[Estruia]

You really don't know what you're talking about, Nilf. A Junta is a military group that holds power by force, after using said force to take that power. Since everyone in the Verkhovna Rada was democratically elected by ALL of Ukraine, they aren't undemocratic, even in the slightest.

As you said before in the old thread, you are purposely twisting things with your own hatred and bias to further your own political goals. Go be a failed Machiavellian elsewhere.

junta
Line breaks: junta
Pronunciation: /ˈdʒʌntə
1A military or political group that rules a country after taking power by force.
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/defin ... lish/junta


A Junta does not have to be a military group.

My Webster dictionary lied to me.