What if Lucifer is the good guy and God is the bad one?

[The United Communist Solar Republic]

No it doesn't. The NT doesn't even really mention 'Satan'.

Luke 10:18
John 8:44
1 Peter 5:8
And much more.

The whole 40 days in the woods thing could just as easily be God testing Jesus's faithfulness.

Sure it could have, if the author of the story had written in that way.

As a Christian, the whole Satan thing just seems ridiculous. I mean, the question could be raised as to why doesn't God just destroy Satan? And there is no logical answer.

Now I'm just speaking Protestant-ly here, but it is a mainline theological concept that the Devil is the polar opposite of all that is good and the true embodiment of Evil...

Clearly speaking from Old Testament perspective, that idea doesn't hold up...

Take for example John 8:44. The word specifically used for 'Devil' is 'Diabolou', which lossely translated means 'Slanderer' or 'False Accuser'. Give that context:

42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies

It can easily be interpreted as a metaphore, "You belong to your father, the slanderer, and you want to carry out your father's desires", a metaphor for those who deny the word of God, and who are corrupted.

Satan doesn't hold up in the New Testament either.

[Alvaria and Cagwenyn]

And what if Hitler was the good guy? You're not clever just because you turned things on their head.

I think there's more wiggle room with 'Lucifer' than there is with Hitler...

To be honest you just sound like the people who say that Hitler banned smoking and therefore wasn't completely evil.

[Menassa]

Luke 10:18
John 8:44
1 Peter 5:8
And much more.


Sure it could have, if the author of the story had written in that way.


Now I'm just speaking Protestant-ly here, but it is a mainline theological concept that the Devil is the polar opposite of all that is good and the true embodiment of Evil...

Clearly speaking from Old Testament perspective, that idea doesn't hold up...

Take for example John 8:44. The word specifically used for 'Devil' is 'Diabolou', which lossely translated means 'Slanderer' or 'False Accuser'. Give that context:

42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies

It can easily be interpreted as a metaphore, "You belong to your father, the slanderer, and you want to carry out your father's desires", a metaphor for those who deny the word of God, and who are corrupted.

Satan doesn't hold up in the New Testament either.

It could very well be the author was discussing his idea of the Devil, of Satan... as I have pointed out there are many other verses which discuss Satan's role in the New Testament and one of them seems to be the Jews if you can believe that, I can.

[Menassa]

I think there's more wiggle room with 'Lucifer' than there is with Hitler...

To be honest you just sound like the people who say that Hitler banned smoking and therefore wasn't completely evil.

Well, it would seem that you haven't actually responded to what I was saying but instead parroted what you had said previously.

So let's begin then, in the Old Testament, it's hard to paint Lucifer as an Evil character or as the 'embodiment of evil' in actuality he seems more like a servant of God like any other angel.

[The United Communist Solar Republic]

Take for example John 8:44. The word specifically used for 'Devil' is 'Diabolou', which lossely translated means 'Slanderer' or 'False Accuser'. Give that context:

42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies

It can easily be interpreted as a metaphore, "You belong to your father, the slanderer, and you want to carry out your father's desires", a metaphor for those who deny the word of God, and who are corrupted.

Satan doesn't hold up in the New Testament either.

It could very well be the author was discussing his idea of the Devil, of Satan... as I have pointed out there are many other verses which discuss Satan's role in the New Testament and one of them seems to be the Jews if you can believe that, I can.

In the sense of an adversary, Satan could easily either be the temptation of Christ, or ha-Satan who tested Job, testing Jesus. It could easily fall into the context of Luke 10:18. Even 1 Peter 5:8 uses the word "Diabolos". There is no place in the NT which refers to Satan as an evil angel/spirit that lives under the earth in a place full of fire and brimstone torturing all the evil people God sends down there.

[Menassa]

It could very well be the author was discussing his idea of the Devil, of Satan... as I have pointed out there are many other verses which discuss Satan's role in the New Testament and one of them seems to be the Jews if you can believe that, I can.

In the sense of an adversary, Satan could easily either be the temptation of Christ, or ha-Satan who tested Job, testing Jesus. It could easily fall into the context of Luke 10:18. Even 1 Peter 5:8 uses the word "Diabolos". There is no place in the NT which refers to Satan as an evil angel/spirit that lives under the earth in a place full of fire and brimstone torturing all the evil people God sends down there.

I again assert John 8:44, if this is discussing Satan, which I'm pretty sure it is there is no way he can be considered a servant of God.
Along with Luke 10:18 which states that Satan fell from heaven, I don't think it matters with the word is 'Diabolos' which denotes lying and that only further bolsters my point.

[The United Communist Solar Republic]

In the sense of an adversary, Satan could easily either be the temptation of Christ, or ha-Satan who tested Job, testing Jesus. It could easily fall into the context of Luke 10:18. Even 1 Peter 5:8 uses the word "Diabolos". There is no place in the NT which refers to Satan as an evil angel/spirit that lives under the earth in a place full of fire and brimstone torturing all the evil people God sends down there.

I again assert John 8:44, if this is discussing Satan, which I'm pretty sure it is there is no way he can be considered a servant of God.
Along with Luke 10:18 which states that Satan fell from heaven, I don't think it matters with the word is 'Diabolos' which denotes lying and that only further bolsters my point.

Again, in Luke 10:18, if it actually refers to the angle ha-Satan (Which seems fairly likely), it still still says nothing about an arch-nemesis of God who wants to make the whole world sin. And what I meant by the word Diabolos is it is not representative of a single thing, it a metaphor, Jesus is stating in Jn8:44 that they listened to the slanderers who claimed to be speaking for God but were corrupt and did the opposite of God's will. He is not stating anything about an arch-nemesis of God.

[Menassa]

I again assert John 8:44, if this is discussing Satan, which I'm pretty sure it is there is no way he can be considered a servant of God.
Along with Luke 10:18 which states that Satan fell from heaven, I don't think it matters with the word is 'Diabolos' which denotes lying and that only further bolsters my point.

Again, in Luke 10:18, if it actually refers to the angle ha-Satan (Which seems fairly likely), it still still says nothing about an arch-nemesis of God who wants to make the whole world sin. And what I meant by the word Diabolos is it is not representative of a single thing, it a metaphor, Jesus is stating in Jn8:44 that they listened to the slanderers who claimed to be speaking for God but were corrupt and did the opposite of God's will. He is not stating anything about an arch-nemesis of God.

I would disagree with that interpretation based on the singular language used in the text.
And in terms of Ha-Satan, he did not fall from heaven and he did not rebel....

[The United Communist Solar Republic]

Again, in Luke 10:18, if it actually refers to the angle ha-Satan (Which seems fairly likely), it still still says nothing about an arch-nemesis of God who wants to make the whole world sin. And what I meant by the word Diabolos is it is not representative of a single thing, it a metaphor, Jesus is stating in Jn8:44 that they listened to the slanderers who claimed to be speaking for God but were corrupt and did the opposite of God's will. He is not stating anything about an arch-nemesis of God.

I would disagree with that interpretation based on the singular language used in the text.
And in terms of Ha-Satan, he did not fall from heaven and he did not rebel....

Well of course ha-Satan didn't fall from heaven and rebel. Satan (To be distinguished from ha-Satan as the ultimate evil of the world) is a purely Catholic concept. Again, no where in the NT is Satan mentioned as an evil that wants to destroy God and humanity.

[Menassa]

I would disagree with that interpretation based on the singular language used in the text.
And in terms of Ha-Satan, he did not fall from heaven and he did not rebel....

Well of course ha-Satan didn't fall from heaven and rebel. Satan (To be distinguished from ha-Satan as the ultimate evil of the world) is a purely Catholic concept. Again, no where in the NT is Satan mentioned as an evil that wants to destroy God and humanity.

Satan, and the-Satan are different?
Explain this to me.

[The United Communist Solar Republic]

Well of course ha-Satan didn't fall from heaven and rebel. Satan (To be distinguished from ha-Satan as the ultimate evil of the world) is a purely Catholic concept. Again, no where in the NT is Satan mentioned as an evil that wants to destroy God and humanity.

Satan, and the-Satan are different?
Explain this to me.

ha-Satan is the servant of God who received orders from God to test Job. Satan is the Catholic evil guy who tempted Adam & Eve, it actively trying to create sin on earth, rebelled against God, fell from heaven, and rules over hell. Satan and ha-Satan are purely names I use to distinguish the angel and the evil guy (Considering they're both called Satan). They are by no means anything other than names I use to distinguish them.

[Menassa]

Satan, and the-Satan are different?
Explain this to me.

ha-Satan is the servant of God who received orders from God to test Job. Satan is the Catholic evil guy who tempted Adam & Eve, it actively trying to create sin on earth, rebelled against God, fell from heaven, and rules over hell. Satan and ha-Satan are purely names I use to distinguish the angel and the evil guy (Considering they're both called Satan). They are by no means anything other than names I use to distinguish them.

And you suggest that Satan, is not found in the New Testament?

[The United Communist Solar Republic]

ha-Satan is the servant of God who received orders from God to test Job. Satan is the Catholic evil guy who tempted Adam & Eve, it actively trying to create sin on earth, rebelled against God, fell from heaven, and rules over hell. Satan and ha-Satan are purely names I use to distinguish the angel and the evil guy (Considering they're both called Satan). They are by no means anything other than names I use to distinguish them.

And you suggest that Satan, is not found in the New Testament?

Yes.

[Menassa]

And you suggest that Satan, is not found in the New Testament?

Yes.

Luke 10:18.
Matthew 4:10
Matthew 12:26
Mark 4:15

[The United Communist Solar Republic]

Yes.

Luke 10:18.
Matthew 4:10
Matthew 12:26
Mark 4:15

1. Matthew 12:27 mentions Beezlebub. That does not mean that Jesus was saying Baal was real. Metaphors are very common in the NT.
2. Secondly, as I have stated before, it seems rather probable the adversary in the forest was either God, or an angel sent to test Jesus's faith in the Lord.

The other two I will have to do a bit more research on, but I'll give you these. Satan in incompatible with the idea of angels, and is incompatible with Isaiah 45:5.

[Menassa]

Luke 10:18.
Matthew 4:10
Matthew 12:26
Mark 4:15

1. Matthew 12:27 mentions Beezlebub. That does not mean that Jesus was saying Baal was real. Metaphors are very common in the NT.
2. Secondly, as I have stated before, it seems rather probable the adversary in the forest was either God, or an angel sent to test Jesus's faith in the Lord.

The other two I will have to do a bit more research on, but I'll give you these. Satan in incompatible with the idea of angels, and is incompatible with Isaiah 45:5.

It's also incompatible with Isaiah 45:7

BTdubs.

[The United Communist Solar Republic]

1. Matthew 12:27 mentions Beezlebub. That does not mean that Jesus was saying Baal was real. Metaphors are very common in the NT.
2. Secondly, as I have stated before, it seems rather probable the adversary in the forest was either God, or an angel sent to test Jesus's faith in the Lord.

The other two I will have to do a bit more research on, but I'll give you these. Satan in incompatible with the idea of angels, and is incompatible with Isaiah 45:5.

It's also incompatible with Isaiah 45:7

BTdubs.

Yes, that as well.

[Timoeto Carta]

Plus, although your biased view is the most ridiculed view I will consider it. Let's see here: God is the devil and Lucifer is the saint. Yeah, the guy whose killing us is the good guy, good thinking *SARCASM*

Lucifer didn't kill anyone.

Lucifer is responsible for every death since Adam and Eve.

[Menassa]

Lucifer didn't kill anyone.

Lucifer is responsible for every death since Adam and Eve.

Can you back that up with scripture?

[Sun Wukong]

Lucifer is responsible for every death since Adam and Eve.

Can you back that up with scripture?

Even if you bought into the interpretation that Lucifer is Satan and Satan is the Serpent, and that eating the fruit caused death somehow, none of which is suggested by the scripture, it's still pretty hard to hold the Serpent responsible.

[Alaizia]

Can you back that up with scripture?

Even if you bought into the interpretation that Lucifer is Satan and Satan is the Serpent, and that eating the fruit caused death somehow, none of which is suggested by the scripture, it's still pretty hard to hold the Serpent responsible.

Exactly.

[Lavan Tiri]

Even if you bought into the interpretation that Lucifer is Satan and Satan is the Serpent, and that eating the fruit caused death somehow, none of which is suggested by the scripture, it's still pretty hard to hold the Serpent responsible.

Exactly.

But if Satan hadn't tempted Adam and Eve, then death wouldn't exist.

[Utceforp]

Exactly.

But if Satan hadn't tempted Adam and Eve, then death wouldn't exist.

Fix'd:

If God hadn't flipped the fuck out and kicked Adam and Eve out of Eden for eating an apple, then death wouldn't exist.

[Menassa]

But if Satan hadn't tempted Adam and Eve, then death wouldn't exist.

Fix'd:

If God hadn't flipped the fuck out and kicked Adam and Eve out of Eden for eating an apple, then death wouldn't exist.

To be fair, they did have one job...

[Vuuhn]

But if Satan hadn't tempted Adam and Eve, then death wouldn't exist.

Fix'd:

If God hadn't flipped the fuck out and kicked Adam and Eve out of Eden for eating an apple, then death wouldn't exist.

If they hadn't done the one flippin' thing God said NOT TO DO they wouldn't have gotten kicked out. God gave humans freewill, and we use it to abuse, disobey, and disavow Him? Not good thanks, human race.