Christian Discussion Thread III

[Draica]

Alright.

Give me one example in scriptures where the deity speaks for or against masturbation.

The Story of Er and Onan, but again you would have to further define sin.

This text cannot be applied to masturbation, because Onan was having sex with a woman at the time, not by himself. In this passage, Onan rebelled against the direct command of his father in Genesis 38:8, "And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother." Onan displayed contempt towards both his dead brother and his wife. Indeed, this was evil in the eyes of the Lord, "therefore He killed him" (Genesis 38:10).

The whole context is in regard to a man trying to engineer which of his wives will give birth to the first son and thus the heir (Deuteronomy 25:5-6). Onan displeased God in that God did not want his people manipulating His sovereignty. The point is not wasting the "seed," the point is about cruel control of destiny, degrading of the wife, and disobeying a direct command of God.

[Menassa]

The Story of Er and Onan, but again you would have to further define sin.

This text cannot be applied to masturbation, because Onan was having sex with a woman at the time, not by himself. In this passage, Onan rebelled against the direct command of his father in Genesis 38:8, "And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother." Onan displayed contempt towards both his dead brother and his wife. Indeed, this was evil in the eyes of the Lord, "therefore He killed him" (Genesis 38:10).

The whole context is in regard to a man trying to engineer which of his wives will give birth to the first son and thus the heir (Deuteronomy 25:5-6). Onan displeased God in that God did not want his people manipulating His sovereignty. The point is not wasting the "seed," the point is about cruel control of destiny, degrading of the wife, and disobeying a direct command of God.

Does it say in the chapter than Onan had a second wife? Which he wanted to have children with?
Furthermore you can't really count of sons of Judah with the Law of levirate marriage that had not even been given yet, as well the punishment for not fulfilling a levirate marriage is death, even you wanted to.

It is clear that Onan's sin was not because he refused to foster a child with Tamar.

[Volantyz]

This text cannot be applied to masturbation, because Onan was having sex with a woman at the time, not by himself. In this passage, Onan rebelled against the direct command of his father in Genesis 38:8, "And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother." Onan displayed contempt towards both his dead brother and his wife. Indeed, this was evil in the eyes of the Lord, "therefore He killed him" (Genesis 38:10).

The whole context is in regard to a man trying to engineer which of his wives will give birth to the first son and thus the heir (Deuteronomy 25:5-6). Onan displeased God in that God did not want his people manipulating His sovereignty. The point is not wasting the "seed," the point is about cruel control of destiny, degrading of the wife, and disobeying a direct command of God.

Does it say in the chapter than Onan had a second wife? Which he wanted to have children with?
Furthermore you can't really count of sons of Judah with the Law of levirate marriage that had not even been given yet, as well the punishment for not fulfilling a levirate marriage is death, even you wanted to.

It is clear that Onan's sin was not because he refused to foster a child with Tamar.

Levirate Marriage
If a man die without children: the brother fucks the widow; legally the children count as the children of the dead guy. Otherwise, fucking your brothers wife ist verboten.

Onan did not refuse to foster Tamar's child. Fostering, adoption etc = you give parental love and care to a child who is NOT biologically yours, but IS legally yours.

Levirate Marriage = the child IS biologically yours, but legally they are your nephew, niece, cousin etc.

God killed Onan for refusing to do LM. Mennassa asserts that LM was invented by Moses 400 years later. Therefore God is as ass; he killed Onan for committing a sin that hadn't been verboten yet.

The way everybody speaks and acts in Tamar's and Ruth's sagas shows that everybody expected LM was standard.

MOST Christian sects consider that LM no longer applies.

But saying it didn't apply way back then is bolleaux.

[Menassa]

Does it say in the chapter than Onan had a second wife? Which he wanted to have children with?
Furthermore you can't really count of sons of Judah with the Law of levirate marriage that had not even been given yet, as well the punishment for not fulfilling a levirate marriage is death, even you wanted to.

It is clear that Onan's sin was not because he refused to foster a child with Tamar.

Levirate Marriage
If a man die without children: the brother fucks the widow; legally the children count as the children of the dead guy. Otherwise, fucking your brothers wife ist verboten.

Onan did not refuse to foster Tamar's child. Fostering, adoption etc = you give parental love and care to a child who is NOT biologically yours, but IS legally yours.
Levirate Marriage = the child IS biologically yours, but legally they are your nephew, niece, cousin etc.

You have not sufficiently proved this claim.

God killed Onan for refusing to do LM.

That's not true, had you actually ready my post,you would know that.

Mennassa asserts that LM was invented by Moses 400 years later. Therefore God is as ass; he killed Onan for committing a sin that hadn't been verboten yet.

Again, had you actually read my post you would know that Leviarate marriage was not 'invented,' but given by God as a Law many years later... and you would also know that I claimed exactly the opposite of what you said that God did not kill Onan because of the Leviarate marriage... that's the point I'm making.

The way everybody speaks and acts in Tamar's and Ruth's sagas shows that everybody expected LM was standard.

You appear to not be aware that Ruth was alive AFTER the Law of Moses was given.

But saying it didn't apply way back then is bolleaux.

No it's not, you've not shown that to be true at all.
Perhaps you should go back and read the conversation I was having and then reassert your two claims.

[Volantyz]

1) Man dies without children. Nearest male relative fucks the widow. Legally the children count as children of the dead guy.

2) This Mitzvah was defined by Moses. Mennassa is better than I am in sourcing Hebrew and English. Moses also forbade fucking one's brother's wife under any other circumstances.

3) My claim re Tamar is that everyone talked and acted as if LM was standard.

4) My claim re Ruth is that everyone talked and acted as if LM was standard. But it the end Ruth children with Boaz legally count as Boaz's childern. So LM was already going obsolete way back then.

5) My claim re LM is most Christian sects consider it obsolete and many sects still forbid you to fuck your brother's wife.

[Menassa]

1) Man dies without children. Nearest male relative fucks the widow. Legally the children count as children of the dead guy.

That's not true, the marriage is only with the brother of the man.

2) This Mitzvah was defined by Moses. Mennassa is better than I am in sourcing Hebrew and English. Moses also forbade fucking one's brother's wife under any other circumstances.

Okay? and your loaded term 'defined by moses' takes away it's godly backing.

3) My claim re Tamar is that everyone talked and acted as if LM was standard.

You'd have to prove that's true,
you'd have to prove my responses to that are false.

4) My claim re Ruth is that everyone talked and acted as if LM was standard. But it the end Ruth children with Boaz legally count as Boaz's childern. So LM was already going obsolete way back then.

Ruth was after the Law of Moses.

5) My claim re LM is most Christian sects consider it obsolete and many sects still forbid you to fuck your brother's wife.

That does not have very many things to do with what I was saying.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

I don't understand how, people can't get it through their heads the Levitical Law doesn't apply to events centuries before it was written.

[Volantyz]

1) Man dies without children. Nearest male relative fucks the widow. Legally the children count as children of the dead guy.

That's not true, the marriage is only with the brother of the man.

2) This Mitzvah was defined by Moses. Mennassa is better than I am in sourcing Hebrew and English. Moses also forbade fucking one's brother's wife under any other circumstances.

Okay? and your loaded term 'defined by moses' takes away it's godly backing.

3) My claim re Tamar is that everyone talked and acted as if LM was standard.

You'd have to prove that's true,
you'd have to prove my responses to that are false.

4) My claim re Ruth is that everyone talked and acted as if LM was standard. But it the end Ruth children with Boaz legally count as Boaz's childern. So LM was already going obsolete way back then.

Ruth was after the Law of Moses.

5) My claim re LM is most Christian sects consider it obsolete and many sects still forbid you to fuck your brother's wife.

That does not have very many things to do with what I was saying.

[Volantyz]

1) Man dies without children. Nearest male relative fucks the widow. Legally the children count as children of the dead guy.

That's not true, the marriage is only with the brother of the man.

2) This Mitzvah was defined by Moses. Mennassa is better than I am in sourcing Hebrew and English. Moses also forbade fucking one's brother's wife under any other circumstances.

Okay? and your loaded term 'defined by moses' takes away it's godly backing.

3) My claim re Tamar is that everyone talked and acted as if LM was standard.

You'd have to prove that's true,
you'd have to prove my responses to that are false.

4) My claim re Ruth is that everyone talked and acted as if LM was standard. But it the end Ruth children with Boaz legally count as Boaz's childern. So LM was already going obsolete way back then.

Ruth was after the Law of Moses.

5) My claim re LM is most Christian sects consider it obsolete and many sects still forbid you to fuck your brother's wife.

That does not have very many things to do with what I was saying.

1) Tamar's saga ends with her marrying Judah, Er's father and the children counted legally as Judah's children. Boaz was Ruth's second cousin. He had to ask permission from Ruth's first cousin before he could marry her and again the children counted as legally Boaz'.

2) That's your fault. OK, 400 years later God told Moses to tell Israel the LM mitwah.

Menassa asserts that Onan is nothing to do with LM because that Mitzwah didn't come in until 400 years later. Why did God kill Onan

]3) My claim re Tamar is that everyone talked and acted as if LM was standard.[/quote]
You'd have to prove that's true,
you'd have to prove my responses to that are false.

You are better at getting Hebrew and English texts than I am.

Why did God kill Onan

[Menassa]

That's not true, the marriage is only with the brother of the man.


Okay? and your loaded term 'defined by moses' takes away it's godly backing.


You'd have to prove that's true,
you'd have to prove my responses to that are false.


Ruth was after the Law of Moses.


That does not have very many things to do with what I was saying.

1) Tamar's saga ends with her marrying Judah, Er's father and the children counted legally as Judah's children. Boaz was Ruth's second cousin. He had to ask permission from Ruth's first cousin before he could marry her and again the children counted as legally Boaz'.

Again, Boaz was after the command of Moses... so I don't see what you're saying.

2) That's your fault. OK, 400 years later God told Moses to tell Israel the LM mitwah.

What?

Why did God kill Onan

Menassa asserts that Onan is nothing to do with LM because that Mitzwah didn't come in until 400 years later. Why did God kill Onan

As I said before... Masturbation.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

1) Tamar's saga ends with her marrying Judah, Er's father and the children counted legally as Judah's children. Boaz was Ruth's second cousin. He had to ask permission from Ruth's first cousin before he could marry her and again the children counted as legally Boaz'.

Again, Boaz was after the command of Moses... so I don't see what you're saying.

2) That's your fault. OK, 400 years later God told Moses to tell Israel the LM mitwah.

What?

Why did God kill Onan

Menassa asserts that Onan is nothing to do with LM because that Mitzwah didn't come in until 400 years later. Why did God kill Onan

As I said before... Masturbation.

I don't think it was so much masturbation as it was spilling his seed upon the ground.

[Menassa]

Again, Boaz was after the command of Moses... so I don't see what you're saying.


What?

As I said before... Masturbation.

I don't think it was so much masturbation as it was spilling his seed upon the ground.

By masturbation, I meant within the context of marriage...

[Tarsonis Survivors]

I don't think it was so much masturbation as it was spilling his seed upon the ground.

By masturbation, I meant within the context of marriage...

So masturbating outside of marriage is okay?

[Menassa]

By masturbation, I meant within the context of marriage...

So masturbating outside of marriage is okay?

Depends on who you ask, depends what 'okay means, depends on if the person was ever married at all.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

and we're back to semantics

[Christmahanikwanzikah]

This text cannot be applied to masturbation, because Onan was having sex with a woman at the time, not by himself. In this passage, Onan rebelled against the direct command of his father in Genesis 38:8, "And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother." Onan displayed contempt towards both his dead brother and his wife. Indeed, this was evil in the eyes of the Lord, "therefore He killed him" (Genesis 38:10).

The whole context is in regard to a man trying to engineer which of his wives will give birth to the first son and thus the heir (Deuteronomy 25:5-6). Onan displeased God in that God did not want his people manipulating His sovereignty. The point is not wasting the "seed," the point is about cruel control of destiny, degrading of the wife, and disobeying a direct command of God.

Does it say in the chapter than Onan had a second wife? Which he wanted to have children with?
Furthermore you can't really count of sons of Judah with the Law of levirate marriage that had not even been given yet, as well the punishment for not fulfilling a levirate marriage is death, even you wanted to.

It is clear that Onan's sin was not because he refused to foster a child with Tamar.

It seems pretty clear from the text that Onan did what he did so that he wouldn't father a child for Er, rather than seeking pleasure/masturbation.

Although it's difficult to find a verse that definitely defines masturbation as a sinful act, knowing that it generally involves lusting after someone outside of marriage and that Jesus defines this as an act of adultery, I can't consciously argue that it's not sinful, either. I would argue, though, that masturbation within marriage isn't sin, as it would be based on lustfully thinking about one's own spouse.

[Menassa]

and we're back to semantics

It's hard to find a clear portrait of what God meant without some sort of..... tradition?

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Does it say in the chapter than Onan had a second wife? Which he wanted to have children with?
Furthermore you can't really count of sons of Judah with the Law of levirate marriage that had not even been given yet, as well the punishment for not fulfilling a levirate marriage is death, even you wanted to.

It is clear that Onan's sin was not because he refused to foster a child with Tamar.

It seems pretty clear from the text that Onan did what he did so that he wouldn't father a child for Er, rather than seeking pleasure/masturbation.

Although it's difficult to find a verse that definitely defines masturbation as a sinful act, knowing that it generally involves lusting after someone outside of marriage and that Jesus defines this as an act of adultery, I can't consciously argue that it's not sinful, either. I would argue, though, that masturbation within marriage isn't sin, as it would be based on lustfully thinking about one's own spouse.

IF, and that's a big if, we assume they are indeed lusting after the spouse and not visiting the ol' highlight reel.

[Volantyz]

Jesus did indeed say Whoever looks upon a woman to lust after her is guilty of adultery; whoever is so angry with his brother so much as to say "Thou fool" is guilty of Fratricide.

Therefore being tempted to sin is still a sin even if you resist the temptation.

Therefore, that hard saying of Scripture is part of the Levitical Law and no longer applies.

[Christmahanikwanzikah]

and we're back to semantics

It's hard to find a clear portrait of what God meant without some sort of..... tradition?

Sola scriptura or bust.

[Christmahanikwanzikah]

It seems pretty clear from the text that Onan did what he did so that he wouldn't father a child for Er, rather than seeking pleasure/masturbation.

Although it's difficult to find a verse that definitely defines masturbation as a sinful act, knowing that it generally involves lusting after someone outside of marriage and that Jesus defines this as an act of adultery, I can't consciously argue that it's not sinful, either. I would argue, though, that masturbation within marriage isn't sin, as it would be based on lustfully thinking about one's own spouse.

IF, and that's a big if, we assume they are indeed lusting after the spouse and not visiting the ol' highlight reel.

That's entirely true. I should have said "... isn't sin, should it be based..." as the alternative would definitely be sin.

[Christmahanikwanzikah]

Just a reminder: http://adam4d.com/christian-today/

[Dangelia]

Just a reminder: http://adam4d.com/christian-today/

A lot of Christians still offer their heads.

[Christmahanikwanzikah]

Just a reminder: http://adam4d.com/christian-today/

A lot of Christians still offer their heads.

Read down a bit further. Under the title of the comic.

[Volantyz]

Genesis 38 - edited highlights:
1) Judah visits Hirah
2) Judah marries Shuah
3) J begat Er
4) J begat Onan
5) J begat Shelah
6) Er marries Tamar
7) the Lord slew Er for his wickedness

8 and Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife and marry her and raise up seed to thy brother.
9) And Onan knew that the seed should not be his. And it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground lest he should give seed to his brother
10) And the thing that he did displeased the Lord wherefore he slew him also.

11) Judah tells Tamar to wait until Shelah is adult.
12) Adventure with the sheepshearers at Timnath

400 years later, Levirate marriage was formally defined. Verse 8 shows that the custom was well known in Tamar's time.

Otherwise, why did the Lord slew Onan

Did God sit there sharpening his thunderbolt saying "Mwah ha ha, little does Onan know, I'm going to make that a sin some day."