NATION

PASSWORD

Christian Discussion Thread III

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Advertisement

Remove ads

What is your denomination?

Catholic
300
31%
Eastern Orthodox
101
10%
Non-Chalcedonian (Oriental Orthodox, Church of the East , etc.)
8
1%
Lutheran
65
7%
Baptist
101
10%
Reformed (Calvinism, Presbyterianism, etc.)
48
5%
Anglican/Episcopalian
61
6%
Restorationist (LDS Movement, Jehovah's Witness, etc.)
19
2%
Non-Denominational
148
15%
Other Christian
130
13%
 
Total votes : 981

User avatar
Tarsonis Survivors
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15693
Founded: Feb 03, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Tarsonis Survivors » Mon Jan 20, 2014 9:41 pm

Grenartia wrote:
Tarsonis Survivors wrote:

Yes, and I would want others to do Good unto me.


So you'd have no problem with Cultists, or Scientologists, or atheists, or Muslims, or Shintoists, etc., stopping by your house every afternoon trying to convert you to their beliefs? Because they're convinced that good is THEIR belief system. While yes, its perfectly fine to want to exchange ideas, the whole affair certainly does get annoying after a while. And you can't necessarily prove that one religion is better than the other, because they all lack objective proof that they're true (which is rather the whole point of faith).


What's wrong with people these days that they don't like human contact. I've never met a witness of any faith, when I politely said no thank you, they politely moved on. If you can't even deal with that, post a sign, or just don't answer the door.

Grenartia wrote:
Tarsonis Survivors wrote:

It comes about when the Lord chooses.



In you're mind it would be good. But I think that's a rather obviously bad scenario. The point I'm trying to make is that the Golden Rule shouldn't taken quite so literally as he's trying to make it.

A lactose-intolerant man undoubtedly would not want to have someone give him milk to drink. Does that mean he should not give it if the situation arises?


And the point I'm making is that to not take it literally would be to violate it. Also, just an FYI, please refer to me as "they", not "he".


You really think Christ spoke like a robot, where every sentence he said was an exact literal meaning, and didn't use idioms, hyperbole, and vernacular?
Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
T. Stevens: "I don't hold with equality in all things, but I believe in equality under the Law."
James I of Aragon "Have you ever considered that our position is Idolatry to the Rabbi?"
A. Lincoln: "My concern is not whether God is on our side, My greatest concern is to be on God's side."
Debating Christian Theology with Non-Christians pretty much anybody be like

User avatar
Tarsonis Survivors
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15693
Founded: Feb 03, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Tarsonis Survivors » Mon Jan 20, 2014 9:43 pm

Grenartia wrote:
Tarsonis Survivors wrote:
Ugh, screw that, too much to keep clean. Give me a nice flat on the corner of St Peter St and MLK Blvd


Give me Matthew Shepard Ave.


Always gotta make it bout the gays.
Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
T. Stevens: "I don't hold with equality in all things, but I believe in equality under the Law."
James I of Aragon "Have you ever considered that our position is Idolatry to the Rabbi?"
A. Lincoln: "My concern is not whether God is on our side, My greatest concern is to be on God's side."
Debating Christian Theology with Non-Christians pretty much anybody be like

User avatar
Menassa
Post Czar
 
Posts: 33354
Founded: Aug 11, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Menassa » Mon Jan 20, 2014 9:45 pm

Tarsonis Survivors wrote:
Grenartia wrote:
So you'd have no problem with Cultists, or Scientologists, or atheists, or Muslims, or Shintoists, etc., stopping by your house every afternoon trying to convert you to their beliefs? Because they're convinced that good is THEIR belief system. While yes, its perfectly fine to want to exchange ideas, the whole affair certainly does get annoying after a while. And you can't necessarily prove that one religion is better than the other, because they all lack objective proof that they're true (which is rather the whole point of faith).


What's wrong with people these days that they don't like human contact. I've never met a witness of any faith, when I politely said no thank you, they politely moved on. If you can't even deal with that, post a sign, or just don't answer the door.

That goes back to dealing with personal preference... but I will tell you once some people came to 'witness' to me at around 8ish and I was still wearing my phylacteries.... needless to say they were a bit stunned... a bit stunned and educated.
-NS's one and only Tanna!
Radical Monotheist
Their hollow inheritance.
This is my god and I shall exalt him
The NS Steam Thread
Jewish Discussion Thread בְּ
"A missionary uses the Bible like a drunk uses a lamppost, not so much for illumination, but for support"
"Imagine of a bunch of Zulu tribesmen told Congress how to read the Constitution, that's how it feels to a Jew when you tell us how to read our bible"
"God said: you must teach, as I taught, without a fee."
"Against your will you are formed, against your will you are born, against your will you live, against your will you die, and against your will you are destined to give a judgement and accounting before the king, king of all kings..."

User avatar
Blasveck
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 13877
Founded: Dec 21, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Blasveck » Mon Jan 20, 2014 9:45 pm

Tarsonis Survivors wrote:
Grenartia wrote:
So you'd have no problem with Cultists, or Scientologists, or atheists, or Muslims, or Shintoists, etc., stopping by your house every afternoon trying to convert you to their beliefs? Because they're convinced that good is THEIR belief system. While yes, its perfectly fine to want to exchange ideas, the whole affair certainly does get annoying after a while. And you can't necessarily prove that one religion is better than the other, because they all lack objective proof that they're true (which is rather the whole point of faith).


What's wrong with people these days that they don't like human contact. I've never met a witness of any faith, when I politely said no thank you, they politely moved on. If you can't even deal with that, post a sign, or just don't answer the door.

Grenartia wrote:
And the point I'm making is that to not take it literally would be to violate it. Also, just an FYI, please refer to me as "they", not "he".


You really think Christ spoke like a robot, where every sentence he said was an exact literal meaning, and didn't use idioms, hyperbole, and vernacular?


To be fair, some folks do take every passage of the Bible literally, it being the Word of God and all.

Not saying you do, but hey, it's out there is all I'm saying.
Forever a Communist

User avatar
Tarsonis Survivors
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15693
Founded: Feb 03, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Tarsonis Survivors » Mon Jan 20, 2014 9:50 pm

Blasveck wrote:
Tarsonis Survivors wrote:

What's wrong with people these days that they don't like human contact. I've never met a witness of any faith, when I politely said no thank you, they politely moved on. If you can't even deal with that, post a sign, or just don't answer the door.



You really think Christ spoke like a robot, where every sentence he said was an exact literal meaning, and didn't use idioms, hyperbole, and vernacular?


To be fair, some folks do take every passage of the Bible literally, it being the Word of God and all.

Not saying you do, but hey, it's out there is all I'm saying.



That's an unfortunate reality, that people think God speaks like a Robot. As if he can't communicate naturally with his people, in a way they could understand.
Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
T. Stevens: "I don't hold with equality in all things, but I believe in equality under the Law."
James I of Aragon "Have you ever considered that our position is Idolatry to the Rabbi?"
A. Lincoln: "My concern is not whether God is on our side, My greatest concern is to be on God's side."
Debating Christian Theology with Non-Christians pretty much anybody be like

User avatar
Menassa
Post Czar
 
Posts: 33354
Founded: Aug 11, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Menassa » Mon Jan 20, 2014 9:51 pm

Tarsonis Survivors wrote:
Blasveck wrote:
To be fair, some folks do take every passage of the Bible literally, it being the Word of God and all.

Not saying you do, but hey, it's out there is all I'm saying.



That's an unfortunate reality, that people think God speaks like a Robot. As if he can't communicate naturally with his people, in a way they could understand.

Like, um... In Hebrew?
-NS's one and only Tanna!
Radical Monotheist
Their hollow inheritance.
This is my god and I shall exalt him
The NS Steam Thread
Jewish Discussion Thread בְּ
"A missionary uses the Bible like a drunk uses a lamppost, not so much for illumination, but for support"
"Imagine of a bunch of Zulu tribesmen told Congress how to read the Constitution, that's how it feels to a Jew when you tell us how to read our bible"
"God said: you must teach, as I taught, without a fee."
"Against your will you are formed, against your will you are born, against your will you live, against your will you die, and against your will you are destined to give a judgement and accounting before the king, king of all kings..."

User avatar
Blasveck
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 13877
Founded: Dec 21, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Blasveck » Mon Jan 20, 2014 9:55 pm

Tarsonis Survivors wrote:
Blasveck wrote:
To be fair, some folks do take every passage of the Bible literally, it being the Word of God and all.

Not saying you do, but hey, it's out there is all I'm saying.



That's an unfortunate reality, that people think God speaks like a Robot. As if he can't communicate naturally with his people, in a way they could understand.


Indeed. That definitely is something I've always admired about the Bible. The language it uses can be so....

I'm not entirely sure how to describe it. Pleasing? But that sounds too informal. Grand?

You get the idea.
Forever a Communist

User avatar
Grenartia
Post Czar
 
Posts: 40177
Founded: Feb 14, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Grenartia » Tue Jan 21, 2014 12:01 am

Tarsonis Survivors wrote:
Grenartia wrote:
So you'd have no problem with Cultists, or Scientologists, or atheists, or Muslims, or Shintoists, etc., stopping by your house every afternoon trying to convert you to their beliefs? Because they're convinced that good is THEIR belief system. While yes, its perfectly fine to want to exchange ideas, the whole affair certainly does get annoying after a while. And you can't necessarily prove that one religion is better than the other, because they all lack objective proof that they're true (which is rather the whole point of faith).


1. What's wrong with people these days that they don't like human contact. I've never met a witness of any faith, when I politely said no thank you, they politely moved on. If you can't even deal with that, post a sign, or just don't answer the door.

Grenartia wrote:
And the point I'm making is that to not take it literally would be to violate it. Also, just an FYI, please refer to me as "they", not "he".


2. You really think Christ spoke like a robot, where every sentence he said was an exact literal meaning, and didn't use idioms, hyperbole, and vernacular?


1. Which doesn't discredit the main point of my post.

2. No, but its pretty hard (I'd say impossible) to take "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" as anything except literally.

Tarsonis Survivors wrote:
Grenartia wrote:
Give me Matthew Shepard Ave.


Always gotta make it bout the gays.


Always gotta complain about people "always gotta make it bout the gays".

Forgive me for trying to emphasize my view that LGBT people have nothing to repent for, in terms of acting on our attractions and/or identities, because they don't actually harm people. Forgive me for pointing out that I can't reconcile Christianity with gay sex and/or being transgender being sins. Forgive me for having the gall to point those things out.
Impeach Humanity, Legalize Death Stars, Life is TheftWis/Gren 2016 Something all cisgender allies should start doing. I wear teal, blue & pink for Swith. ⚧Copy and paste this in your sig if you passed biology and know gender and sex aren't the same thing.⚧
"Don't take life so serious. It isn't permanent."-Dyakovo
I'm a pansexual Androgyne. Also a Christian.
Please use they/them/their when referencing me, as I do NOT appreciate the other pronouns.
Textbook definition of irony
Quotes of awesomeness

User avatar
Irredento
Envoy
 
Posts: 313
Founded: Mar 05, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Irredento » Tue Jan 21, 2014 6:09 am

Menassa wrote:Okay? Not to say that I am insensitive to your suffering or your tribulations but I said that line rather dismissively, as being a point I wouldn't like to discuss.

I'm not asking for sympathy for me. I am, however, asking that you have sympathy for God.

The only reason I mentioned my own suffering is to point out that it is nothing compared to the suffering of God violently tortured to death by his own creation whom he loved even as they twisted the spear in his side.


Menassa wrote:
Irredento wrote:Would you prefer that we have no free will and therefore no risk of sinning?

Life without free will is, to me, not life at all but more like a play with a pretedermined beginning, middle, and end in which the actors are trapped all their lives.

"God is not a man that he should lie..."
So when he says he won't destroy the world again, I believe him... regardless of how bad humans are... surely an omniscient God would know this before making such a deceleration.

Whether he would or would not destroy the world again is not the point. I do not want to offend and upset God even if there is absolutely no chance of punishment because when I think of upsetting God, I imagine the Son on the cross, suffering for me, suffering for us, even as those for whom he suffered added tenfold to that suffering. Our God is one of infinite capacity for forgiveness and love. It is for this reason, rather than fear of vengeance, that we should strive to do right by him.

Think about it. Would you rather do a favour for someone you love or someone you fear? In both situations, you are likely to carry out the favour, but helping a loved one feels better than helping someone you fear, correct? The same goes for hurting them. While you don't want to hurt someone you fear because this might lead to violent retaliation, you do not want to hurt someone you love because it tears you apart inside to see them upset. This is how I feel about my service to God. He loves me and I love Him. Just as I like to show my love for my family or even women I've courted, I do all that I can to show my love for God. Hossana in the highest.

User avatar
Menassa
Post Czar
 
Posts: 33354
Founded: Aug 11, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Menassa » Tue Jan 21, 2014 6:16 am

Irredento wrote:
Menassa wrote:Okay? Not to say that I am insensitive to your suffering or your tribulations but I said that line rather dismissively, as being a point I wouldn't like to discuss.

I'm not asking for sympathy for me. I am, however, asking that you have sympathy for God.

I don't feel that omni-beings require my sympathy, if anything the opposite should be felt. Don't get me wrong, I love my God with all my heart and all my soul and everyday I keep is commandments so that I may choose life and my children may live.

Irredento wrote:The only reason I mentioned my own suffering is to point out that it is nothing compared to the suffering of God violently tortured to death by his own creation whom he loved even as they twisted the spear in his side.

Okay? I still don't see why it's necesarry or relevant to the point at hand.


Irredento wrote:
Menassa wrote:"God is not a man that he should lie..."
So when he says he won't destroy the world again, I believe him... regardless of how bad humans are... surely an omniscient God would know this before making such a deceleration.

Whether he would or would not destroy the world again is not the point. I do not want to offend and upset God even if there is absolutely no chance of punishment because when I think of upsetting God, I imagine the Son on the cross, suffering for me, suffering for us, even as those for whom he suffered added tenfold to that suffering. Our God is one of infinite capacity for forgiveness and love. It is for this reason, rather than fear of vengeance, that we should strive to do right by him.

And by not spreading the messages your God would be offended?

Irredento wrote:Think about it. Would you rather do a favour for someone you love or someone you fear? In both situations, you are likely to carry out the favour, but helping a loved one feels better than helping someone you fear, correct? The same goes for hurting them. While you don't want to hurt someone you fear because this might lead to violent retaliation, you do not want to hurt someone you love because it tears you apart inside to see them upset. This is how I feel about my service to God. He loves me and I love Him. Just as I like to show my love for my family or even women I've courted, I do all that I can to show my love for God. Hossana in the highest.

Irrelevant to the point.
-NS's one and only Tanna!
Radical Monotheist
Their hollow inheritance.
This is my god and I shall exalt him
The NS Steam Thread
Jewish Discussion Thread בְּ
"A missionary uses the Bible like a drunk uses a lamppost, not so much for illumination, but for support"
"Imagine of a bunch of Zulu tribesmen told Congress how to read the Constitution, that's how it feels to a Jew when you tell us how to read our bible"
"God said: you must teach, as I taught, without a fee."
"Against your will you are formed, against your will you are born, against your will you live, against your will you die, and against your will you are destined to give a judgement and accounting before the king, king of all kings..."

User avatar
Irredento
Envoy
 
Posts: 313
Founded: Mar 05, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Irredento » Tue Jan 21, 2014 6:29 am

Grenartia wrote:Forgive me for trying to emphasize my view that LGBT people have nothing to repent for, in terms of acting on our attractions and/or identities, because they don't actually harm people. Forgive me for pointing out that I can't reconcile Christianity with gay sex and/or being transgender being sins. Forgive me for having the gall to point those things out.

Look, Christians do not hate gays, we in fact love them. When I say this, I truly mean it. Rather than trying to oppress them, what we are in fact doing is more akin to an intervention to help those whom we love stop living such an unhealthy and morally damaging lifestyle. They might not be hurting other people, but I do not think it is any coincidence that mental illness is many degrees worse among homosexuals, especially transgenders, than others, nor can I bring myself to ignore the fact that a disproportionate amount of them were molested as children, and it would be wilfully ignorant for me to pretend that homosexual promiscuity is not responsible for the spread and proliferation of AIDS and HIV around the world, along with many other lesser STDs due to the fact that homosexuals are so much more promiscuous and prone to unsafe sex than sexually healthy people. Finally, and most importantly of all, as Christians we must accept Bibical truth wherever possible, even if modern society disdains the truth, and so even if we end up living in a world in which gay "marriage" is legal in every part of every nation, all good Christians will continue to shout from the rooftops that this is wrong. The fact that all these social and health problems have arisen as a result of the acceptance of homosexuality as "normal" serves to show that, once again, the Word of God is indeed the best rulebook by which to run society and live one's life.

Sometimes, it is right to help someone even if they are only harming themselves. Just as I would want to see a heroin addict kick his habit, I also want to see homosexuals kick their habit. You are almost certainly the same on other issues that have not yet been pushed upon you since youth by the media. Take incest for example. I assume you are not a proponent of brothers and sisters legally having sex and even marrying simply because they are "consenting adults" who "aren't hurtning anyone"? Or what about bestiality? Before you tell me that "animals can't consent", consider the case of a man on Loveline who described how he "presents" and lets his dog enter him from behind. The very act is initiated by the dog and therefore is consensual. Is this sort of thing okay to you? Can you support this just because the dog and the man are having consensual sex and "aren't hurting anyone"? Please consider all of these things as well as all the other possible sexual perversions out there that could someday be argued are "normal" for the same reasons you currently believe homosexuality to be healthy and non-damaging. Sometimes, even if it might hurt their feelings, we must do all that is within our power to save a person. I care a lot more about the eternal soul of people caught up in the gay lifestyle than I do about their hurt feelings between now and their redemption.

User avatar
Irredento
Envoy
 
Posts: 313
Founded: Mar 05, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Irredento » Tue Jan 21, 2014 6:31 am

Menassa wrote:
Irredento wrote:Whether he would or would not destroy the world again is not the point

Irrelevant to the point.

Hm... it seems that we are discussing completely different things from one another at this point.

User avatar
Grenartia
Post Czar
 
Posts: 40177
Founded: Feb 14, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Grenartia » Tue Jan 21, 2014 2:48 pm

Irredento wrote:
Grenartia wrote:Forgive me for trying to emphasize my view that LGBT people have nothing to repent for, in terms of acting on our attractions and/or identities, because they don't actually harm people. Forgive me for pointing out that I can't reconcile Christianity with gay sex and/or being transgender being sins. Forgive me for having the gall to point those things out.

1. Look, Christians do not hate gays, we in fact love them. When I say this, I truly mean it. Rather than trying to oppress them, what we are in fact doing is more akin to an intervention to help those whom we love stop living such an unhealthy and morally damaging lifestyle. 2. They might not be hurting other people, but I do not think it is any coincidence that mental illness is many degrees worse among homosexuals, especially transgenders, than others, 3. nor can I bring myself to ignore the fact that a disproportionate amount of them were molested as children, and 4. it would be wilfully ignorant for me to pretend that homosexual promiscuity is not responsible for the spread and proliferation of AIDS and HIV around the world, 5. along with many other lesser STDs due to the fact that homosexuals are so much more promiscuous and prone to unsafe sex than sexually healthy people. 6. Finally, and most importantly of all, as Christians we must accept Bibical truth wherever possible, 7. even if modern society disdains the truth, 8. and so even if we end up living in a world in which gay "marriage" is legal in every part of every nation, all good Christians will continue to shout from the rooftops that this is wrong. 9. The fact that all these social and health problems have arisen as a result of the acceptance of homosexuality as "normal" serves to show that, once again, the Word of God is indeed the best rulebook by which to run society and live one's life.

10. Sometimes, it is right to help someone even if they are only harming themselves. Just as I would want to see a heroin addict kick his habit, 11. I also want to see homosexuals kick their habit. 12. You are almost certainly the same on other issues that have not yet been pushed upon you since youth by the media. 13. Take incest for example. I assume you are not a proponent of brothers and sisters legally having sex and even marrying simply because they are "consenting adults" who "aren't hurtning anyone"? 14. Or what about bestiality? Before you tell me that "animals can't consent", consider the case of a man on Loveline who described how he "presents" and lets his dog enter him from behind. The very act is initiated by the dog and therefore is consensual. Is this sort of thing okay to you? 15. Can you support this just because the dog and the man are having consensual sex and "aren't hurting anyone"? 16. Please consider all of these things as well as all the other possible sexual perversions out there that could someday be argued are "normal" for the same reasons you currently believe homosexuality to be healthy and non-damaging. 17. Sometimes, even if it might hurt their feelings, we must do all that is within our power to save a person. 18. I care a lot more about the eternal soul of people caught up in the gay lifestyle than I do about their hurt feelings between now and their redemption.


1. If you truly believed that, you wouldn't be saying the underlined, because its not: "unhealthy (any more than heterosexual sex is, at least)", "morally damaging", a "lifestyle (any more than heterosexuality is)", or comparable to an addiction.

2. Ever stop to consider that maybe the reason so many of us have mental illness is because we're trampled over, in the exact same way that kids who are bulled and abused during childhood tend to have mental illnesses?

3. What does that unsubstantiated statement have to do with anything?

4. Except, HIV/AIDS was caused by eating African bushmeat (aka: monkeys and other primates). Also, the risks of getting it are about equal for any sexual orientation.

5. Bullshit.

6. Except, the Bible never actually condemns it as a sin (at least in the NT, and the OT, where its only mentioned twice doesn't even apply to Christians).

7. I'm pretty sure people said the same thing back during the interracial marriage debate.

8. No. Because denying people their fundamental God-given rights is fundamentally wrong. Any good Christian knows that. Again, do unto others. Any Christian who refuses to stand up for LGBT equality is morally no different from the people in the story of the Good Samaritan who walked by the beaten man without helping. There's no getting around that.

9. Ignoring the fact that the statement that "social and health problems arising because people accept homosexuality" is bullshit, correlation does not equal causation.

10. Except the help you're thinking of isn't needed, and is, in fact, doing more harm than good.

11. Again, its not comparable to a drug addiction, any more than driving a car can be compared to eating an apple.

12. lolwut. That makes literally no sense.

13. Because incest can harm any potential kid. You're not even comparing apples and oranges. You're comparing apples and steak.

14. Animals still can't give informed consent because they inherently lack the brain development required for it. Again, apples and steak.

15. No, because its animal abuse. Again, apples and steak.

16. Slippery slope is a fallacy.

17. Except there's nothing to save us from.

18. Except, you know, there's no "lifestyle". To say nothing of the fact that the attitude of yourself and others like you (which are based on mistranslated and misinterpreted verses) only serves to drive LGBT people away from God and Christianity. Basically, you're endangering people's souls because you've been severely misinformed.
Impeach Humanity, Legalize Death Stars, Life is TheftWis/Gren 2016 Something all cisgender allies should start doing. I wear teal, blue & pink for Swith. ⚧Copy and paste this in your sig if you passed biology and know gender and sex aren't the same thing.⚧
"Don't take life so serious. It isn't permanent."-Dyakovo
I'm a pansexual Androgyne. Also a Christian.
Please use they/them/their when referencing me, as I do NOT appreciate the other pronouns.
Textbook definition of irony
Quotes of awesomeness

User avatar
Tarsonis Survivors
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15693
Founded: Feb 03, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Tarsonis Survivors » Tue Jan 21, 2014 6:49 pm

Grenartia wrote:
Irredento wrote:1. Look, Christians do not hate gays, we in fact love them. When I say this, I truly mean it. Rather than trying to oppress them, what we are in fact doing is more akin to an intervention to help those whom we love stop living such an unhealthy and morally damaging lifestyle. 2. They might not be hurting other people, but I do not think it is any coincidence that mental illness is many degrees worse among homosexuals, especially transgenders, than others, 3. nor can I bring myself to ignore the fact that a disproportionate amount of them were molested as children, and 4. it would be wilfully ignorant for me to pretend that homosexual promiscuity is not responsible for the spread and proliferation of AIDS and HIV around the world, 5. along with many other lesser STDs due to the fact that homosexuals are so much more promiscuous and prone to unsafe sex than sexually healthy people. 6. Finally, and most importantly of all, as Christians we must accept Bibical truth wherever possible, 7. even if modern society disdains the truth, 8. and so even if we end up living in a world in which gay "marriage" is legal in every part of every nation, all good Christians will continue to shout from the rooftops that this is wrong. 9. The fact that all these social and health problems have arisen as a result of the acceptance of homosexuality as "normal" serves to show that, once again, the Word of God is indeed the best rulebook by which to run society and live one's life.

10. Sometimes, it is right to help someone even if they are only harming themselves. Just as I would want to see a heroin addict kick his habit, 11. I also want to see homosexuals kick their habit. 12. You are almost certainly the same on other issues that have not yet been pushed upon you since youth by the media. 13. Take incest for example. I assume you are not a proponent of brothers and sisters legally having sex and even marrying simply because they are "consenting adults" who "aren't hurtning anyone"? 14. Or what about bestiality? Before you tell me that "animals can't consent", consider the case of a man on Loveline who described how he "presents" and lets his dog enter him from behind. The very act is initiated by the dog and therefore is consensual. Is this sort of thing okay to you? 15. Can you support this just because the dog and the man are having consensual sex and "aren't hurting anyone"? 16. Please consider all of these things as well as all the other possible sexual perversions out there that could someday be argued are "normal" for the same reasons you currently believe homosexuality to be healthy and non-damaging. 17. Sometimes, even if it might hurt their feelings, we must do all that is within our power to save a person. 18. I care a lot more about the eternal soul of people caught up in the gay lifestyle than I do about their hurt feelings between now and their redemption.


1. If you truly believed that, you wouldn't be saying the underlined, because its not: "unhealthy (any more than heterosexual sex is, at least)", "morally damaging", a "lifestyle (any more than heterosexuality is)", or comparable to an addiction.

2. Ever stop to consider that maybe the reason so many of us have mental illness is because we're trampled over, in the exact same way that kids who are bulled and abused during childhood tend to have mental illnesses?

3. What does that unsubstantiated statement have to do with anything?

4. Except, HIV/AIDS was caused by eating African bushmeat (aka: monkeys and other primates). Also, the risks of getting it are about equal for any sexual orientation.

5. Bullshit.

6. Except, the Bible never actually condemns it as a sin (at least in the NT, and the OT, where its only mentioned twice doesn't even apply to Christians).

7. I'm pretty sure people said the same thing back during the interracial marriage debate.

8. No. Because denying people their fundamental God-given rights is fundamentally wrong. Any good Christian knows that. Again, do unto others. Any Christian who refuses to stand up for LGBT equality is morally no different from the people in the story of the Good Samaritan who walked by the beaten man without helping. There's no getting around that.

9. Ignoring the fact that the statement that "social and health problems arising because people accept homosexuality" is bullshit, correlation does not equal causation.

10. Except the help you're thinking of isn't needed, and is, in fact, doing more harm than good.

11. Again, its not comparable to a drug addiction, any more than driving a car can be compared to eating an apple.

12. lolwut. That makes literally no sense.

13. Because incest can harm any potential kid. You're not even comparing apples and oranges. You're comparing apples and steak.

14. Animals still can't give informed consent because they inherently lack the brain development required for it. Again, apples and steak.

15. No, because its animal abuse. Again, apples and steak.

16. Slippery slope is a fallacy.

17. Except there's nothing to save us from.

18. Except, you know, there's no "lifestyle". To say nothing of the fact that the attitude of yourself and others like you (which are based on mistranslated and misinterpreted verses) only serves to drive LGBT people away from God and Christianity. Basically, you're endangering people's souls because you've been severely misinformed.




They're not mistranslations no matter how you try to convince yourself.

Anyway, they reason I made the comment was what we were discussing had nothing tomdomwith homosexuality. And rather than acknowledge the off color but badhumor I offered, you had to make it serious and insert homosexuality into the discussion.
Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
T. Stevens: "I don't hold with equality in all things, but I believe in equality under the Law."
James I of Aragon "Have you ever considered that our position is Idolatry to the Rabbi?"
A. Lincoln: "My concern is not whether God is on our side, My greatest concern is to be on God's side."
Debating Christian Theology with Non-Christians pretty much anybody be like

User avatar
Othelos
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12596
Founded: Feb 05, 2013
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Othelos » Tue Jan 21, 2014 6:53 pm

Irredento wrote:
Grenartia wrote:Forgive me for trying to emphasize my view that LGBT people have nothing to repent for, in terms of acting on our attractions and/or identities, because they don't actually harm people. Forgive me for pointing out that I can't reconcile Christianity with gay sex and/or being transgender being sins. Forgive me for having the gall to point those things out.

Look, Christians do not hate gays, we in fact love them. When I say this, I truly mean it. Rather than trying to oppress them, what we are in fact doing is more akin to an intervention to help those whom we love stop living such an unhealthy and morally damaging lifestyle.


Take your righteous morality elsewhere. It's not your business to interfere in others' lives, especially not for religious reasons.

Irredento wrote:They might not be hurting other people, but I do not think it is any coincidence that mental illness is many degrees worse among homosexuals,


Have you heard of minority stress? Also, can you imagine what it's like to live in a world where people think there's something wrong with you that you have no control over? When love becomes evil, it screws with a person's mind.

Irredento wrote:especially transgenders, than others,


Any problems they may have disappears after being able to be who they really are.

Irredento wrote:nor can I bring myself to ignore the fact that a disproportionate amount of them were molested as children,


Source.

Irredento wrote:and it would be wilfully ignorant for me to pretend that homosexual promiscuity is not responsible for the spread and proliferation of AIDS and HIV around the world,


You do realize that straight people are the majority of people having sex, right? So how is it the fault of homosexuals?

Irredento wrote:along with many other lesser STDs due to the fact that homosexuals are so much more promiscuous and prone to unsafe sex than sexually healthy people.


See above, and cite a source for your claims.

Irredento wrote:Finally, and most importantly of all, as Christians we must accept Bibical truth wherever possible, even if modern society disdains the truth, and so even if we end up living in a world in which gay "marriage" is legal in every part of every nation, all good Christians will continue to shout from the rooftops that this is wrong.


Considering gay marriage has no effect on your life, get over it. LGBT people aren't trying to tell others how to live life, so it's only respectful for you to do the same.

Irredento wrote: The fact that all these social and health problems have arisen as a result of the acceptance of homosexuality as "normal" serves to show that, once again, the Word of God is indeed the best rulebook by which to run society and live one's life.


I can pull random shit out of nowhere, too.

Irredento wrote:Sometimes, it is right to help someone even if they are only harming themselves. Just as I would want to see a heroin addict kick his habit, I also want to see homosexuals kick their habit.


Homosexuality isn't a choice. You can't alter biology with religion.

Irredento wrote:You are almost certainly the same on other issues that have not yet been pushed upon you since youth by the media. Take incest for example. I assume you are not a proponent of brothers and sisters legally having sex and even marrying simply because they are "consenting adults" who "aren't hurtning anyone"?


I don't give a damn what other people do in their free time.

Irredento wrote:Or what about bestiality? Before you tell me that "animals can't consent", consider the case of a man on Loveline who described how he "presents" and lets his dog enter him from behind. The very act is initiated by the dog and therefore is consensual. Is this sort of thing okay to you? Can you support this just because the dog and the man are having consensual sex and "aren't hurting anyone"?


The dog can't legally consent.

Irredento wrote:Please consider all of these things as well as all the other possible sexual perversions out there that could someday be argued are "normal" for the same reasons you currently believe homosexuality to be healthy and non-damaging. Sometimes, even if it might hurt their feelings, we must do all that is within our power to save a person. I care a lot more about the eternal soul of people caught up in the gay lifestyle than I do about their hurt feelings between now and their redemption.


I repeat, you can't alter biology with religion. To attempt to do so only leads to harm.

It's a huge problem when people think that they are helping when they are really harming. It's sinister and twisted, and it's a perversion in and of itself to convince others that something natural and normal is really unnatural and perverse.
International Northwestern Union
  • American/German, Ich kann auch Deutsch
  • Quantitative Finance student
Pro: Human rights, classical liberalism, equality, LGBT rights, the EU, capitalism, property rights, innovation, green politics, public transportation
Anti: Autocratic regimes, the Chinese government, leftist "progressivism", identity politics, die Linke/SPD, populism, organized religion, Erdogan, intellectual property theft, assault weapon ownership

User avatar
Blasveck
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 13877
Founded: Dec 21, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Blasveck » Tue Jan 21, 2014 6:56 pm

Guys, does this really belong in the Christian discussion thread?

This debate has been rehashed so many times.
Forever a Communist

User avatar
Menassa
Post Czar
 
Posts: 33354
Founded: Aug 11, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Menassa » Tue Jan 21, 2014 6:58 pm

Blasveck wrote:Guys, does this really belong in the Christian discussion thread?

This debate has been rehashed so many times.

Meh, its Christian discussion.
-NS's one and only Tanna!
Radical Monotheist
Their hollow inheritance.
This is my god and I shall exalt him
The NS Steam Thread
Jewish Discussion Thread בְּ
"A missionary uses the Bible like a drunk uses a lamppost, not so much for illumination, but for support"
"Imagine of a bunch of Zulu tribesmen told Congress how to read the Constitution, that's how it feels to a Jew when you tell us how to read our bible"
"God said: you must teach, as I taught, without a fee."
"Against your will you are formed, against your will you are born, against your will you live, against your will you die, and against your will you are destined to give a judgement and accounting before the king, king of all kings..."

User avatar
Tarsonis Survivors
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15693
Founded: Feb 03, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Tarsonis Survivors » Tue Jan 21, 2014 7:14 pm

Othelos wrote:
Irredento wrote:Look, Christians do not hate gays, we in fact love them. When I say this, I truly mean it. Rather than trying to oppress them, what we are in fact doing is more akin to an intervention to help those whom we love stop living such an unhealthy and morally damaging lifestyle.


Take your righteous morality elsewhere. It's not your business to interfere in others' lives, especially not for religious reasons.


Actually, this is the CDT, so technically you should take your indignation to his views elsewhere.

Othelos wrote:~snip~


As for the rest I have no dispute.
Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
T. Stevens: "I don't hold with equality in all things, but I believe in equality under the Law."
James I of Aragon "Have you ever considered that our position is Idolatry to the Rabbi?"
A. Lincoln: "My concern is not whether God is on our side, My greatest concern is to be on God's side."
Debating Christian Theology with Non-Christians pretty much anybody be like

User avatar
Othelos
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12596
Founded: Feb 05, 2013
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Othelos » Tue Jan 21, 2014 7:19 pm

Tarsonis Survivors wrote:
Othelos wrote:

Take your righteous morality elsewhere. It's not your business to interfere in others' lives, especially not for religious reasons.


Actually, this is the CDT, so technically you should take your indignation to his views elsewhere.


Most of it is unrelated to Christianity and is just plain ignorance.
International Northwestern Union
  • American/German, Ich kann auch Deutsch
  • Quantitative Finance student
Pro: Human rights, classical liberalism, equality, LGBT rights, the EU, capitalism, property rights, innovation, green politics, public transportation
Anti: Autocratic regimes, the Chinese government, leftist "progressivism", identity politics, die Linke/SPD, populism, organized religion, Erdogan, intellectual property theft, assault weapon ownership

User avatar
Tarsonis Survivors
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15693
Founded: Feb 03, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Tarsonis Survivors » Tue Jan 21, 2014 7:35 pm

Othelos wrote:
Tarsonis Survivors wrote:
Actually, this is the CDT, so technically you should take your indignation to his views elsewhere.


Most of it is unrelated to Christianity and is just plain ignorance.


Of the part I snipped, sure, including your own. But that one statement is the view expressed by Christendom at large. If you don't like it, kindly move toward the exits.
Last edited by Tarsonis Survivors on Tue Jan 21, 2014 7:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
T. Stevens: "I don't hold with equality in all things, but I believe in equality under the Law."
James I of Aragon "Have you ever considered that our position is Idolatry to the Rabbi?"
A. Lincoln: "My concern is not whether God is on our side, My greatest concern is to be on God's side."
Debating Christian Theology with Non-Christians pretty much anybody be like

User avatar
Othelos
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12596
Founded: Feb 05, 2013
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Othelos » Tue Jan 21, 2014 9:12 pm

Tarsonis Survivors wrote:
Othelos wrote:
Most of it is unrelated to Christianity and is just plain ignorance.


Of the part I snipped, sure, including your own. But that one statement is the view expressed by Christendom at large. If you don't like it, kindly move toward the exits.

By "elsewhere", I meant out of other people's lives. Not the CDT.
International Northwestern Union
  • American/German, Ich kann auch Deutsch
  • Quantitative Finance student
Pro: Human rights, classical liberalism, equality, LGBT rights, the EU, capitalism, property rights, innovation, green politics, public transportation
Anti: Autocratic regimes, the Chinese government, leftist "progressivism", identity politics, die Linke/SPD, populism, organized religion, Erdogan, intellectual property theft, assault weapon ownership

User avatar
Neoconstantius
Minister
 
Posts: 2056
Founded: Nov 05, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Neoconstantius » Tue Jan 21, 2014 9:22 pm

Grenartia wrote:
Neoconstantius wrote:Yeah, I know, long time ago and pretty obscure reference now, which is why I was surprised somewhat brought it up.

It was flaunted as a hate crime for a long time, but evidence that later came to light indicated that the primary motivation was drugs and alcohol, not his sexuality.


Source?

Not exactly an anti-LGBT source, and raises some interesting points although with marked confirmation bias
Old but relevant nonetheless

You'll probably pull up the criticism that ensued after ABC aired that 20/20 episode in 2004, so we'll probably just have to agree to disagree here. I think there's more evidence to suggest that homophobia was not the primary factor, but that's my interpretation.
GO ILLINI
........................
........................
........................
........................
Ja Rusyn byl, jesm'y budu.
Podkarpatskie Rusyny, ostavte hlubokyj son!
Sloboda! Autonómia! Nezávislosť!

User avatar
Tarsonis Survivors
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15693
Founded: Feb 03, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Tarsonis Survivors » Tue Jan 21, 2014 11:31 pm

Othelos wrote:
Tarsonis Survivors wrote:
Of the part I snipped, sure, including your own. But that one statement is the view expressed by Christendom at large. If you don't like it, kindly move toward the exits.

By "elsewhere", I meant out of other people's lives. Not the CDT.


Fair enough, but that is still Christian Ideals.
Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
T. Stevens: "I don't hold with equality in all things, but I believe in equality under the Law."
James I of Aragon "Have you ever considered that our position is Idolatry to the Rabbi?"
A. Lincoln: "My concern is not whether God is on our side, My greatest concern is to be on God's side."
Debating Christian Theology with Non-Christians pretty much anybody be like

User avatar
Tarsonis Survivors
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15693
Founded: Feb 03, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Tarsonis Survivors » Tue Jan 21, 2014 11:39 pm

Neoconstantius wrote:
Grenartia wrote:
Source?

Not exactly an anti-LGBT source, and raises some interesting points although with marked confirmation bias
Old but relevant nonetheless

You'll probably pull up the criticism that ensued after ABC aired that 20/20 episode in 2004, so we'll probably just have to agree to disagree here. I think there's more evidence to suggest that homophobia was not the primary factor, but that's my interpretation.



This is why I don't believe in hate crime legislation.
Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
T. Stevens: "I don't hold with equality in all things, but I believe in equality under the Law."
James I of Aragon "Have you ever considered that our position is Idolatry to the Rabbi?"
A. Lincoln: "My concern is not whether God is on our side, My greatest concern is to be on God's side."
Debating Christian Theology with Non-Christians pretty much anybody be like

User avatar
Grenartia
Post Czar
 
Posts: 40177
Founded: Feb 14, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Grenartia » Tue Jan 21, 2014 11:41 pm

Tarsonis Survivors wrote:
Grenartia wrote:
1. If you truly believed that, you wouldn't be saying the underlined, because its not: "unhealthy (any more than heterosexual sex is, at least)", "morally damaging", a "lifestyle (any more than heterosexuality is)", or comparable to an addiction.

2. Ever stop to consider that maybe the reason so many of us have mental illness is because we're trampled over, in the exact same way that kids who are bulled and abused during childhood tend to have mental illnesses?

3. What does that unsubstantiated statement have to do with anything?

4. Except, HIV/AIDS was caused by eating African bushmeat (aka: monkeys and other primates). Also, the risks of getting it are about equal for any sexual orientation.

5. Bullshit.

6. Except, the Bible never actually condemns it as a sin (at least in the NT, and the OT, where its only mentioned twice doesn't even apply to Christians).

7. I'm pretty sure people said the same thing back during the interracial marriage debate.

8. No. Because denying people their fundamental God-given rights is fundamentally wrong. Any good Christian knows that. Again, do unto others. Any Christian who refuses to stand up for LGBT equality is morally no different from the people in the story of the Good Samaritan who walked by the beaten man without helping. There's no getting around that.

9. Ignoring the fact that the statement that "social and health problems arising because people accept homosexuality" is bullshit, correlation does not equal causation.

10. Except the help you're thinking of isn't needed, and is, in fact, doing more harm than good.

11. Again, its not comparable to a drug addiction, any more than driving a car can be compared to eating an apple.

12. lolwut. That makes literally no sense.

13. Because incest can harm any potential kid. You're not even comparing apples and oranges. You're comparing apples and steak.

14. Animals still can't give informed consent because they inherently lack the brain development required for it. Again, apples and steak.

15. No, because its animal abuse. Again, apples and steak.

16. Slippery slope is a fallacy.

17. Except there's nothing to save us from.

18. Except, you know, there's no "lifestyle". To say nothing of the fact that the attitude of yourself and others like you (which are based on mistranslated and misinterpreted verses) only serves to drive LGBT people away from God and Christianity. Basically, you're endangering people's souls because you've been severely misinformed.




1. They're not mistranslations no matter how you try to convince yourself.

2. Anyway, they reason I made the comment was what we were discussing had nothing tomdomwith homosexuality. And rather than acknowledge the off color but badhumor I offered, you had to make it serious and insert homosexuality into the discussion.


1. Then why, if arsenokoitai refers to gay sex, did Paul have to make it up and use it, instead of the already existing Greek word for it?

2. It needn't have been any more than "off color but badhumor" in the same vein as that you offered, but you had to make it serious and complain about me 'always bringing up teh gheyz'.

Blasveck wrote:Guys, does this really belong in the Christian discussion thread?

This debate has been rehashed so many times.


Its a debate about the proper Christian attitudes towards LGBT people, which means its fit for this thread.

Neoconstantius wrote:
Grenartia wrote:
Source?

Not exactly an anti-LGBT source, and raises some interesting points although with marked confirmation bias
Old but relevant nonetheless

You'll probably pull up the criticism that ensued after ABC aired that 20/20 episode in 2004, so we'll probably just have to agree to disagree here. I think there's more evidence to suggest that homophobia was not the primary factor, but that's my interpretation.


I see.
Impeach Humanity, Legalize Death Stars, Life is TheftWis/Gren 2016 Something all cisgender allies should start doing. I wear teal, blue & pink for Swith. ⚧Copy and paste this in your sig if you passed biology and know gender and sex aren't the same thing.⚧
"Don't take life so serious. It isn't permanent."-Dyakovo
I'm a pansexual Androgyne. Also a Christian.
Please use they/them/their when referencing me, as I do NOT appreciate the other pronouns.
Textbook definition of irony
Quotes of awesomeness

PreviousNext

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bear Stearns, Belantica, Cerinda, Cobalt Chloride, Des-Bal, Dooom35796821595, Eastfield Lodge, Ethel mermania, Fartsniffage, Galloism, Ghost Land, Grapasia, Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum, Heloin, Jolthig, Khomney, Kowani, Mojave Confederation, Neder Brum, Newland City, Nights Edge, Ostroeuropa, Rojava Free State, Shrillland, Spirit of Hope, The Grand Duchy of Muscovy, The Greater Ohio Valley, The Japanese Americans, The Lone Alliance, The New California Republic, The South Falls, Vetalia, Vykel

Advertisement

Remove ads