Working is not enough to escape poverty in UK

[The UK in Exile]

"Freezing prices is denounced as Marxist by Cameron and the Tories"

Well, it also would be a shit idea that would result in gas shortages and rationing. Simply declaring the price of something to be "A" doesn't change the market reality, it's pointless.

I'm not in favour of price fixing either. It just doesn't work. The Tories say they've made tariffs simpler so you know what you're paying, which is a nonsense. There's less of them, but it's still really difficult to work out what you're even paying for gas/electricity.

There just isn't enough competition in the marketplace. The gas companies all raise their prices at the same time and roughly by the same amount. The market needs more smaller players who don't have to rely on buying energy from the bigger suppliers.

Because Gas is Gas. You can't have a competition when you all sell the same product. The energy companies claim you can't have a freeze because they don't control the price of gas, But since they don't control the price of gas it doesn't matter which one of them your paying for gas.

[Lemanrussland]

"Freezing prices is denounced as Marxist by Cameron and the Tories"

Well, it also would be a shit idea that would result in gas shortages and rationing (this is because you create excess demand and a supply shortage by setting a price ceiling below the equilibrium price of a good). Simply declaring the price of something to be "A" doesn't change the market reality, it's pointless.

Though, as I asked in the OP, why isn't Cameron's idea of freezing rail prices an equally Marxist idea?

Well, rail markets are often thought of as a special case, because they easily tend towards monopoly, just like roads or utilities markets. Here in the States, even after rail deregulation in the 1980s, the Surface Transportation Board sets prices for rail if there is no effective market competition in a given area.

[Lemanrussland]

Though, as I asked in the OP, why isn't Cameron's idea of freezing rail prices an equally Marxist idea?

Well, rail markets are often thought of as a special case, because they easily tend towards monopoly, just like roads or utilities markets. Here in the States, even after rail deregulation in the 1980s, the Surface Transportation Board sets prices for rail if there is no effective market competition in a given area.

To be clear, I don't think freezing or setting prices across the rail industry is necessarily a good idea either, it should only be employed when there is no effective competition for rail services in a given area. Otherwise, the market should set the prices.

[4years]

"Freezing prices is denounced as Marxist by Cameron and the Tories"

Well, it also would be a shit idea that would result in gas shortages and rationing (this is because you create excess demand and a supply shortage by setting a price ceiling below the equilibrium price of a good). Simply declaring the price of something to be "A" doesn't change the market reality, it's pointless.

Wrong: If the price is currently X, with D profit for each unit sold, and Z people currently purchase units, with N people who need/want but do not have the good but would purchase it if the price were A (where (X-D)<A<X), then the price could be declared to be A with market reality being more accurately reflected by price A than by price X. In fact price A might even mean greater profits than price X. The effectiveness of price fixing depends on the amount of information possessed by the entity fixing the prices whereas the 'equilibrium' price depends on the amount of information possessed by private investors. The difference is that private investors care solely about Pmax where on objective price fixing entity only cares that Pmin is achieved and will, therefore, be willing to sacrifice some of the company's profit in order to promote the general welfare.

Actually, I am not that great a fan of price fixing as I would say nationalize and sell at cost with rationing used if necessary. Further, despite the protests of Cameron and the Tories, price fixing presupposes a market capitalist economy which I want gone on the first place.

[European Socialist Republic]

Trickle-down economics is a proven myth.
Or rather, if it does exist then what is trickling-down is piss. Onto the faces of the working poor.

Instead of complaining they could use our piss, which we're giving away FOR FREE!! -- YOU HEAR THAT, MOOCHERS!? WE ARE GIVING IT AWAY FOR FREE!!! BE A LITTLE MORE GRATEFUL!!! -- Anyway, they could us it for lots of things. Instead of spending money on food, they could drink a glass of piss. Instead of spending money on water, they should wash themsevles with piss etc. Think of how much money they'll save! Meanwhile I can finally wash my poodle in a bath of Henri Jayer Richebourg Grand Cru without the proles constantly begging me for money. Freeloaders.

[Baader-Meinhof Gruppe]

This is just now happening in the U.K.? It's been that way for a while in America. You see the problem with capitalism is eventually the rich run out of other people's money to spend. Then you get bailouts and other corporate handouts while forcing the worker to work more just to stay alive and thus giving the corporate dogs more productivity for less cost.

[Geilinor]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-24553611



https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... ation-2013

If the Government's own Social Mobility 'Tsar' is saying that even working parents cannot escape poverty because jobs do not pay enough to allow them to do so, something is seriously wrong with the UK. Energy prices are rising rapidly at above inflation rates, hitting the poor hard, but the idea of freezing prices is denounced as Marxist by David Cameron. Strangely Cameron's own plan to freeze rail fares for commuters is presumably not.

So is capitalism failing the UK, or is it simply the government failing?

My view is that the problem is the current government is only working for a small section of society, not the country as a whole. They favour affluent commuters but not the average working family, all the time trying to demonise immigrants, the unemployed, the young, to distract people from their own failures.

I mean, the Red Cross having to come to the UK and help out with food provision for the poor is pretty fucking shitty.

That's just bad. The Red Cross should be able to use all its resources in poor countries.

[Greed and Death]

I mean, the Red Cross having to come to the UK and help out with food provision for the poor is pretty fucking shitty.

That's just bad. The Red Cross should be able to use all its resources in poor countries.

They help out all the time in the US it is no big deal.

[Geilinor]

Am I the only one here still astonished by the fact you used to be able to get out of poverty with one job in the UK?

I mean, I have known families with two jobs that barely got by here in the States

You still can get out of poverty with one job in the UK. The definition of 'poverty' in this instance is a household income of < £256 per week, which equates to an annual income of £13,312 per annum.

£13,312 for a household of how many?

[Jamjai]

social welfare

just tossing somewhere in here..

[The Godly Nations]

social welfare

just tossing somewhere in here..

No, too soft...reopen the workhouses...make 'em fear poverty...

[Eastfield Lodge]

You still can get out of poverty with one job in the UK. The definition of 'poverty' in this instance is a household income of < £256 per week, which equates to an annual income of £13,312 per annum.

£13,312 for a household of how many?

The initial story is about families with children, and how the children will grow up to be poorer than their parents.

So at least 3. Likely at least 4.

[Geilinor]

£13,312 for a household of how many?

The initial story is about families with children, and how the children will grow up to be poorer than their parents.

So at least 3. Likely at least 4.

There's no way £13,312 can offer a decent standard of living to 3 or 4 people.

[Eastfield Lodge]

The initial story is about families with children, and how the children will grow up to be poorer than their parents.

So at least 3. Likely at least 4.

There's no way £13,312 can offer a decent standard of living to 3 or 4 people.

And there's the poverty.

[Lemanrussland]

social welfare

just tossing somewhere in here..

The UK already spends something like 15 percent of GDP on social protection (not comparable to the typical 20-25 percent of GDP spending you can see in Europe, but still substantial).

Maybe I'm impressed because I'm American, but health, education, and social protection making up 30 percent of GDP and almost 3/4 of government spending is pretty welfare oriented.

[The Joseon Dynasty]

"Freezing prices is denounced as Marxist by Cameron and the Tories"

Well, it also would be a shit idea that would result in gas shortages and rationing (this is because you create excess demand and a supply shortage by setting a price ceiling below the equilibrium price of a good). Simply declaring the price of something to be "A" doesn't change the market reality, it's pointless.

Assuming all the conditions for market equilibrium hold. Real-world prices are rarely signals for the most economically efficient price of a good or service, since markets are usually warped by "imperfections" that the model doesn't take into account - the assumptions of general equilibrium theory are very strong, and only really a logical exercise / demonstration. You can argue that the underlying logic of price ceilings will result in shortages, but you can't apply that logic to the real world without due consideration of the context. And when it comes to the energy markets (the provision of it, anyway), which are naturally monopolistic, I'd argue you can't apply that logic at all.

[European Socialist Republic]

social welfare

just tossing somewhere in here..

No, too soft...reopen the workhouses...make 'em fear poverty...

"Are there no prisons? And the Union workhouses - are they still in operation?"

[HappyShark]

Congrats on successfully taxing the middle class into oblivion? What can be said about this, when the people do not realize heavily taxing those who would help them escape their current condition only makes it harder to accomplish the very goal they are trying to achieve. A temporary gain of equalizing the wrong tiers to make the poor feel richer, while systematically blowing apart the bridges, which would serve to forward competition into the very tiers people keep complaining are disproportionately richer. Success, we have success at last, the poor have been taken care of, is this what everyone has in mind?

[Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f]

Congrats on successfully taxing the middle class into oblivion? What can be said about this, when the people do not realize heavily taxing those who would help them escape their current condition only makes it harder to accomplish the very goal they are trying to achieve. A temporary gain of equalizing the wrong tiers to make the poor feel richer, while systematically blowing apart the bridges, which would serve to forward competition into the very tiers people keep complaining are disproportionately richer. Success, we have success at last, the poor have been taken care of, is this what everyone has in mind?

Its more that employment revolves around low paying service jobs, 0 hour contracts and a very unstable jobs market rather than taxation. Thanks for playing though.

[Colbert Super PAC]

No, too soft...reopen the workhouses...make 'em fear poverty...

"Are there no prisons? And the Union workhouses - are they still in operation?"

Ebenezer Scrooge was a job creator!!!

[HappyShark]

Congrats on successfully taxing the middle class into oblivion? What can be said about this, when the people do not realize heavily taxing those who would help them escape their current condition only makes it harder to accomplish the very goal they are trying to achieve. A temporary gain of equalizing the wrong tiers to make the poor feel richer, while systematically blowing apart the bridges, which would serve to forward competition into the very tiers people keep complaining are disproportionately richer. Success, we have success at last, the poor have been taken care of, is this what everyone has in mind?

Its more that employment revolves around low paying service jobs, 0 hour contracts and a very unstable jobs market rather than taxation. Thanks for playing though.

http://socialwelfare.bl.uk/subject-area ... 5B2%5D.pdf

[Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f]

Its more that employment revolves around low paying service jobs, 0 hour contracts and a very unstable jobs market rather than taxation. Thanks for playing though.

http://socialwelfare.bl.uk/subject-area ... 5B2%5D.pdf

http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Documents ... essive.pdf

[European Socialist Republic]

Its more that employment revolves around low paying service jobs, 0 hour contracts and a very unstable jobs market rather than taxation. Thanks for playing though.

http://socialwelfare.bl.uk/subject-area ... 5B2%5D.pdf

Ah, the Institute for Fiscal Studies. Founded by a banker and Conservative Party politician (Will Hopper), an investment trust manager (Bob Buist), a stockbroker (Nils Taube) and a tax consultant (John Chown) who didn't like the Finance Act 1965 which introduced a corporation tax and capital gains tax.
They have a right-wing bias

[Shove Piggy Shove]

There's no way £13,312 can offer a decent standard of living to 3 or 4 people.

And there's the poverty.

A family of 3/4 people with only 1 person working (and receiving minimum wage) would also be receiving child benefit (~£80 per month, per child), child tax credits (up to £2,720 per child, per annum) plus the second parent (who is not working) would most likely be receiving JSA or income support and the family as a whole is likely to be eligible for council housing/housing benefits - council house rent is £74/week, housing benefit would pay rent for a 2 bedroom house up to £290 per week (if both children are same gender) or for a 3 bedroom house up to £340 per week.

The household may be being classed as in 'poverty' by this report, but the family will not be struggling to get by.

[Kalarin]

Honestly I think the problem is from successive governments, the UK government is corrupt. Not just the tories but Labour and the Libdems. MP's from all the majour parties are bought off by energy companies, major corporations or banks. Take my own local MP Rachel Reeves. She said she wanted to crack down on corporations avoiding tax. Now she seems to have gone quiet on the matter after attending a PwC event and hiring former employee's of PwC.

I am slowly giving up hope on my country. Im no socialist or real capitalist. Really I just want MP's who will at least try and have some sort of values. Labour is shifting ever more to the right in their effort to try and appear strong. The conservatives wallow in their own pitiful greed. The Libdems try and cover themselves after scandal and clear lying.

We live in a three party state. Anyone who thinks UKIP or Greens or other small parties will get anywhere are deluded, the parties in power don't want any challangers. MP's these days are corrupt beyond belief. And nobody seems to notice, most people spend their days watching TV or reading the bias newpapers which are all owned by the people they are supposed to expose.

NS help me find hope in the UK.