Multiculturism, is it really that great?

[Ajmeristan]

Sorry to break it to you but multiculturalism is pretty good for the most part. I understand in the Netherlands, conflicting cultures are being common. But thats YOUR authorities, police, and government's fault for not enforcing the laws of your country good enough.

I hope you know that the mayor of Rotterdam, the Netherlands second largest city and biggest port, is a Muslim,Ahmed Aboutaleb, and his city seems fine.

[Free Tristania]

Sorry to break it to you but multiculturalism is pretty good for the most part. I understand in the Netherlands, conflicting cultures are being common. But thats YOUR authorities, police, and government's fault for not enforcing the laws of your country good enough.

I hope you know that the mayor of Rotterdam, the Netherlands second largest city and biggest port, is a Muslim,Ahmed Aboutaleb, and his city seems fine.

Not exactly. Rotterdam is a very high-crime city and Abu .. despite of talking tough is a typical PvdA (Dutch Labour) burgomaster: no action. Besides: we don't elect our burgomasters.. they get appointed by the Crown (and government) and a commission serves as a social security net for failed politicians. That's why so many burgomasters are either CDA or PvdA: two failed parties.

[New Waterford]

I don't like it when people say that their culture or tradition is more important than letting in migrants who would benefit the country and/or are escaping tyranny.

[Free Tristania]

I don't like it when people say that their culture or tradition is more important than letting in migrants who would benefit the country and/or are escaping tyranny.

Well you don't like it but there it is. Immigrants, in general, don't benefit the country and 99 percent of them didn't run away from some tyrannical regime. The 1 percent that does should of course be helped.

[Pacifornia]

I don't like it when people say that their culture or tradition is more important than letting in migrants who would benefit the country and/or are escaping tyranny.

Well you don't like it but there it is. Immigrants, in general, don't benefit the country and 99 percent of them didn't run away from some tyrannical regime. The 1 percent that does should of course be helped.

My parents escaped the huge wealth gap and corrupt military regime in Honduras during the 80s and they have decent middle class jobs here in US. I guess we're the one percent then?

[Free Tristania]

Well you don't like it but there it is. Immigrants, in general, don't benefit the country and 99 percent of them didn't run away from some tyrannical regime. The 1 percent that does should of course be helped.

My parents escaped the huge wealth gap and corrupt military regime in Honduras during the 80s and they have decent middle class jobs here in US. I guess we're the one percent then?

Yes. But here in Europe the majority of refugees does not come from such regimes and they don't contribute to the economy at all.

[Quintium]

So, that means we should all be singling out all Moroccans as criminals?

Not at all. I know some who are great people. Thing is, they're semi-secular ones from the big cities - Rabat, Tanger, Casablanka - and consequently they don't like most of the Moroccans we have here. There's an interesting divide between the urban ones - who have adapted a lot better - and the rural ones, who are still pretty much how they were forty years ago except more conservative, more inclined to take a criminal career and more likely to be unemployed.

Prove this.

Article 23 of the Constitution, for starters.
The Algemene wet gelijke behandeling and all of the laws based on it.

Prove it right to me, because if they're treated better than "the rest", then why do most of them still live in ghetto's, hoarded up?

Oh, don't exaggerate. There's no country that I've visited where the inner cities were in a better state than here. Compared to, say, the United Kingdom or France, our ghettos aren't bad at all.

This is our most notorious neighbourhood. Not because the housing is at all bad, or people are hungry, or anything like that, because they're all pretty well-fed and taken care of by the government - but because South American, Caribbean and North African drug traffickers shoot the place up every few weeks.

If the government is doing so much about it, then why are the "probleemwijken" still "probleemwijken"? Can't be because of magic, of that I'm sure!

Well, because the people who live there are pretty much stuck in a destructive mindset. They don't want to build this country, but they sure as hell want to take everything they can take from it.

Yes, the cultural segregation is also in-part their problem, but who were the ones who refused to live in a multicultural neighbourhood? The snobby middle-class Dutchmen, that's who, and not the Moroccans.

Considering the way you insult my parents, my uncles and aunts and my grandparents, I do hope you actually live in a Vogelaarwijk. After the thefts, the intimidation, the robberies and the death threats, and seeing trash thrown on the streets and hijabs take over, I think my family was absolutely right in fleeing Rotterdam.

[Quintium]

I hope you know that the mayor of Rotterdam, the Netherlands second largest city and biggest port, is a Muslim,Ahmed Aboutaleb, and his city seems fine.

I was there today, and I'll be there tomorrow. And I'll just tell you this - most of it's a hole. It has, perhaps, the lowest life expectancy in the country. It's plagued by all types of crime, and I don't feel safe there at all. There are streets where the pavement is literally covered by trash, and you can buy drugs absolutely everywhere.

[Gift-of-god]

http://vorige.nrc.nl/international/article2532816.ece

Absence of ethnic violence in the Netherlands explained

While other Western countries have been the scene of ethnic riots, the Netherlands remained quiet. According to one new study, the Dutch have their police to thank for it.

How has the Netherlands managed to escaped large-scale ethnic riots, wondered researcher Otto Adang and two of his colleagues. On Monday, Adang, who teaches public order and threat control at the Apeldoorn police academy, presented his findings to the acting minister of home affairs, Ernst Hirsch Ballin. The report titled Are we different? tries to explain why the rise in immigration, and tensions accompanying it, hasn’t led to an explosion.
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Knowing what lies behind the absence of ethnic riots in the Netherlands is important, said Adang, because some have warned they could happen any moment. "With reason," Adang said. "In a heavily polarised society, riots can easily break out."

...

"The reason for these ethnic riots lies largely in segregation and social-economic deprivation," Adang said. “Large scale immigration is a relatively recent phenomenon. We have ethnic neighbourhoods of course, but we don’t have ghettos like the US or the UK do. The Dutch social security system prevents extreme poverty." But that is not the only reason ethnic tensions may be milder in the Netherlands. Based on his research, Adang has concluded that the police also plays an important part.

In general, two models for police action exist. In the repressive model, the police simply upholds the law by cracking down on violations. This type of police action is mainly directed at symptoms, not at underlying causes. The police force is an outsider in neighbourhoods, and it approaches residents as a group.

In the second model of police action, police officers are familiar with a certain neighbourhood. Officers invest time and effort in their contacts with local residents and social organisations. They get in touch with mosques and social workers; they know the local priest and occasionally participate in neighbourhood meetings. In this model, police officers also uphold the law, but only through targeted action. Police officers are familiar with the peculiarities of ethnic groups, allowing them to respond adequately to problems.

...

In the Netherlands, the police adopted the latter, network-oriented, approach as early as the 1980s. This helps to quell incipient riots, said Adang. "When trouble arises, they can fall back on their relationships. As a police officer, you have your sensors out in society. You can prevent escalation by using your network. It was more than dumb luck that we have avoided ethnic riots."

Apparently multiculturalism works quite well in the Netherlands.

[Quintium]

Apparently multiculturalism works quite well in the Netherlands.

That doesn't seem to follow from that article. And actually, even though they're not large-scale, we have plenty of ethnic riots. Last year, the police tried to arrest a man following a stabbing - only to be driven out of the street by people from the suspect's community who threw rocks and heavy fireworks at them (enough to blow someone's leg off, not firecrackers). And the year before that, the Turks held a protest in favour of Erdogan and against the PKK, and some Kurds showed up and started fighting.

We're just one big happy society waiting to implode. A bit like Malmö.

EDIT: Oh, and now I forgot the riots in Utrecht a few years ago. Fun times.
Some people thought we'd need to send in the army to restore order there. Lots o'fun.

[Divair]

Immigrants, in general, don't benefit the country

As an ebil immigrant: Source.

[Gift-of-god]

That doesn't seem to follow from that article. And actually, even though they're not large-scale, we have plenty of ethnic riots. Last year, the police tried to arrest a man following a stabbing - only to be driven out of the street by people from the suspect's community who threw rocks and heavy fireworks at them (enough to blow someone's leg off, not firecrackers). And the year before that, the Turks held a protest in favour of Erdogan and against the PKK, and some Kurds showed up and started fighting.

We're just one big happy society waiting to implode. A bit like Malmö.

EDIT: Oh, and now I forgot the riots in Utrecht a few years ago. Fun times.
Some people thought we'd need to send in the army to restore order there. Lots o'fun.

You know what the difference is between my claim and yours?

I have evidence to support my claim. You don't.

[Quintium]

I have evidence to support my claim. You don't.

Actually, you have 'evidence' that some people say the approach of the Dutch police is better than the approach of, say, the British police. Personally, I think the bending to violent idiots in order to keep temporary peace is going to be the end of us all eventually, but that's beside the point. The point is that multiculturalism isn't going all that swimmingly here - we're appeasing them, but the appeasement funds are running out and we'll see that in a few years.

[Gift-of-god]

Actually, you have 'evidence' that some people say the approach of the Dutch police is better than the approach of, say, the British police. Personally, I think the bending to violent idiots in order to keep temporary peace is going to be the end of us all eventually, but that's beside the point. The point is that multiculturalism isn't going all that swimmingly here - we're appeasing them, but the appeasement funds are running out and we'll see that in a few years.

When people base their claims entirely on some future event, I assume they have no argument left.

By the way, it's not just "some people say" there isn't a problem.

They published a study: http://polisen.azurewebsites.net/wp-con ... ferent.pdf

[Free Tristania]

Immigrants, in general, don't benefit the country

As an ebil immigrant: Source.

Incarceration rates, rates of recidivism and welfare rates. Not enough evidence for you ?

[Divair]

As an ebil immigrant: Source.

Incarceration rates, rates of recidivism and welfare rates. Not enough evidence for you ?

Given that you're not sourcing anything to suggest your claim (which I have highlighted for your viewing), nope.

Immigrants, in general, don't benefit the country

[Wytenigistan]

Actually, you have 'evidence' that some people say the approach of the Dutch police is better than the approach of, say, the British police. Personally, I think the bending to violent idiots in order to keep temporary peace is going to be the end of us all eventually, but that's beside the point. The point is that multiculturalism isn't going all that swimmingly here - we're appeasing them, but the appeasement funds are running out and we'll see that in a few years.

When people base their claims entirely on some future event, I assume they have no argument left.

By the way, it's not just "some people say" there isn't a problem.

They published a study: http://polisen.azurewebsites.net/wp-con ... ferent.pdf

Yeah fuck the future.

[The Nihilistic view]

Incarceration rates, rates of recidivism and welfare rates. Not enough evidence for you ?

Given that you're not sourcing anything to suggest your claim (which I have highlighted for your viewing), nope.

Immigrants, in general, don't benefit the country

Hispanic and Latino Americans comprise 16.3% of the population, making up the largest ethnic minority.[24] Black Americans are the largest racial minority, comprising nearly 13% of the population.[25] The White, non-Hispanic or Latino population comprises 66% of the nation's total.[24]

According to the US Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) non-Hispanic blacks accounted for 39.4% of the total prison and jail population in 2009.[26] According to the 2010 census of the US Census Bureau blacks (including Hispanic blacks) comprised 13.6% of the US population.[27][28][29]

Hispanics (of all races) were 20.6% of the total jail and prison population in 2009.[26] Hispanics comprised 16.3% of the US population according to the 2010 US census.[27][30] The Northeast has the highest incarceration rates of Hispanics in the nation.[31] Connecticut has the highest Hispanic-to-White ratio with 6.6 Hispanic males for every white male. The national average Hispanic-to-White ratio is 1.8. Other states with high Hispanic-to-White ratios include Massachusetts, Pennsylvania, and New York.[32]

The Hispanic community is not monolithic, and thus there are variations, even with incarceration rates. Among the Hispanic community, Puerto Ricans have the highest incarceration rate, and are up to six times more likely to be incarcerated than whites, and may explain the higher incarceration rates for Hispanics in the Northeast region.[33][34][35][36][37][38][39][40][41] Illegal immigrants, usually Mexican nationals, also make up a substantial number of Hispanics incarcerated.[42][43][44]

In 2010 black non-Hispanic males were incarcerated at the rate of 4,347 inmates per 100,000 U.S. residents of the same race and gender. White males were incarcerated at the rate of 678 inmates per 100,000 U.S. residents. Hispanic males were incarcerated at the rate of 1,755 inmates per 100,000 U.S. residents.

[Gift-of-god]

Hispanic and Latino Americans comprise 16.3% of the population, making up the largest ethnic minority.[24] Black Americans are the largest racial minority, comprising nearly 13% of the population.[25] The White, non-Hispanic or Latino population comprises 66% of the nation's total.[24]

According to the US Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) non-Hispanic blacks accounted for 39.4% of the total prison and jail population in 2009.[26] According to the 2010 census of the US Census Bureau blacks (including Hispanic blacks) comprised 13.6% of the US population.[27][28][29]

Hispanics (of all races) were 20.6% of the total jail and prison population in 2009.[26] Hispanics comprised 16.3% of the US population according to the 2010 US census.[27][30] The Northeast has the highest incarceration rates of Hispanics in the nation.[31] Connecticut has the highest Hispanic-to-White ratio with 6.6 Hispanic males for every white male. The national average Hispanic-to-White ratio is 1.8. Other states with high Hispanic-to-White ratios include Massachusetts, Pennsylvania, and New York.[32]

The Hispanic community is not monolithic, and thus there are variations, even with incarceration rates. Among the Hispanic community, Puerto Ricans have the highest incarceration rate, and are up to six times more likely to be incarcerated than whites, and may explain the higher incarceration rates for Hispanics in the Northeast region.[33][34][35][36][37][38][39][40][41] Illegal immigrants, usually Mexican nationals, also make up a substantial number of Hispanics incarcerated.[42][43][44]

In 2010 black non-Hispanic males were incarcerated at the rate of 4,347 inmates per 100,000 U.S. residents of the same race and gender. White males were incarcerated at the rate of 678 inmates per 100,000 U.S. residents. Hispanic males were incarcerated at the rate of 1,755 inmates per 100,000 U.S. residents.

Blacks and Hispanics are not immigrants to the US.

[Wytenigistan]

Blacks and Hispanics are not immigrants to the US.

That's a generalization, they may or may not be.

[Quintium]

When people base their claims entirely on some future event, I assume they have no argument left.

We'll see.

They published a study: http://polisen.azurewebsites.net/wp-con ... ferent.pdf

That's not a study - that's an essay masked as a discussion about 'scientific research', citing absolutely no original research, containing absolutely no data gathered by the authors themselves, and published under the auspices of the European Union Integration Fund.
In addition, I'll cite some of it. See what you think.

In 1972 the Afrikaanderwijk in Rotterdam was transformed into a battleground, when for five succeeding days and nights members of the local Dutch community fought with Turkish workers who had settled themselves in ‘their’ neighbourhood. These riots were the beginning of a long time of public resistance and violence against the coming of non western migrants in old neighbourhoods. From the sixties to the late eighties there was a considerable amount of incidents in which Dutchmen were turned against groups of foreign workers. These disorders occurred mainly in the old neighbourhoods. There were riots in Schiedam, Utrecht and Tilburg.

[Gift-of-god]

That's a generalization, they may or may not be.

Sure. Then we agree that the data may or may not be applicable.

We'll see.

As long as we agree that the current data does not support your claim.

That's not a study - that's an essay masked as a discussion about 'scientific research', citing absolutely no original research, containing absolutely no data gathered by the authors themselves, and published under the auspices of the European Union Integration Fund.
In addition, I'll cite some of it. See what you think.

In 1972 the Afrikaanderwijk in Rotterdam was transformed into a battleground, when for five succeeding days and nights members of the local Dutch community fought with Turkish workers who had settled themselves in ‘their’ neighbourhood. These riots were the beginning of a long time of public resistance and violence against the coming of non western migrants in old neighbourhoods. From the sixties to the late eighties there was a considerable amount of incidents in which Dutchmen were turned against groups of foreign workers. These disorders occurred mainly in the old neighbourhoods. There were riots in Schiedam, Utrecht and Tilburg.

So, there hasn't been any real violence for about thirty years. Good to know.

[Coccygia]

I'm pretty much with the OP. Screw multiculturalism. Bear something in mind: most cultures other than the West don't believe in multiculturalism or even tolerating other cultures. The US (and European nations) should go back to the notion of assimilation (if this is the right term for it): accept the US culture and the English language, and you can also maintain your traditions if they are not illegal under US law (as is FGM, for example).

[Pacifornia]

I'm pretty much with the OP. Screw multiculturalism. Bear something in mind: most cultures other than the West don't believe in multiculturalism or even tolerating other cultures. The US (and European nations) should go back to the notion of assimilation (if this is the right term for it): accept the US culture and the English language, and you can also maintain your traditions if they are not illegal under US law (as is FGM, for example).

That seems okay. I'm a product of assimilation and my parents adapted pretty damn well. We still speak Spanish to each other and listen to Latin pop though.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

I'm pretty much with the OP. Screw multiculturalism. Bear something in mind: most cultures other than the West don't believe in multiculturalism or even tolerating other cultures. The US (and European nations) should go back to the notion of assimilation (if this is the right term for it): accept the US culture and the English language, and you can also maintain your traditions if they are not illegal under US law (as is FGM, for example).

With a few minor exceptions, that is what every single wave of immigrants to America does within a generation. All of them.