The Land of Kings and Emperors Embassy

[Whiskum]

Hardly: we pursued our own interests in a way which guaranteed the eventual return of Osiris, something which was by no means certain.

Our leverage derived from the presence of our military forces, which cross-endorsed and potentially could have switch sides if the situation called for it.

An update military 'liberation' as such was never going to be a practical option for a long time.

Frankly, however, LKE and TNI do indeed benefit from this outcome, so does Osiris.

We support a stable, free and democratic Osiris. We believed a precondition of that is the removal of UDL and FRA influence. We acted accordingly, to pursue our own interest, but in a way that has secured the return of Osiris into freedom. We get different things out of it obviously.

Indeed.

the LKE and TNi benefited from this.
Osiris is still stuck under a multitude of Gatesvillian demands.

An update military liberation was a practical option with UIAF assisting.

They chose not to, and Osiris suffers.

As I say, we have no reason to deploy if we do not benefit. Osiris also benefits substantially from the return of its region. It is to mutual benefit.

I disagree entirely that an update military 'liberation' was possible with our support and any military option for liberation was made substantially more possible with our forces in the region able to potentially switch sides. This made a negotiated settlement a reality, to Osiris's benefit.

[Cerian Quilor]

Osirian Interests were served quite well by this peace, and your continued and deliberate ignorance of the reality of the situation does not serve you, or the UDL in any way.

Liberations alone do not always solve the problem in a situation like the Osiris Coup. War in the GCRs is very much a matter of politics, negotiation and attrition, which is why the UDL has always been ill suited for it.

So LKE did their actions for their own benefit, not for Osiris' benefit? Highly unsurprising coming from the imperialist sphere. A liberation would have achieved exactly what has been achieved, getting the region back, except it would have happened quicker and it wouldn't have forced Osiris to sign a degrading peace treaty.

That's not what I said, and a liberation wouldn't have been practical. the only reason the numbers might have gotten to a 40 distance even in the first place was because, in order to not get banjected, all non-updaters, from such regions as the GCR allies of Osiris, Mazeria, etc, would have to endorse TDE so as not to appear a threat. You are not thinking about GCR conflict, but conflict in your standard founderless region.

Your continued ignorance, Southwick and Mahaj, which has to either be a record, or wilfull, is astounding.

[Southwick]

Indeed.

the LKE and TNi benefited from this.
Osiris is still stuck under a multitude of Gatesvillian demands.

An update military liberation was a practical option with UIAF assisting.

They chose not to, and Osiris suffers.

As I say, we have no reason to deploy if we do not benefit. Osiris also benefits substantially from the return of its region. It is to mutual benefit.

You deploy because you support a stable, free, and democratic Osiris. But I guess that is only when it serves you.

Edit: Fixing bb code

[Cerian Quilor]

Try reading all the words, Southwick.

[Mahaj]

Indeed.

the LKE and TNi benefited from this.
Osiris is still stuck under a multitude of Gatesvillian demands.

An update military liberation was a practical option with UIAF assisting.

They chose not to, and Osiris suffers.

As I say, we have no reason to deploy if we do not benefit. Osiris also benefits substantially from the return of its region. It is to mutual benefit.

I disagree entirely that an update military 'liberation' was possible with our support and any military option for liberation was made substantially more possible with our forces in the region able to potentially switch sides. This made a negotiated settlement a reality, to Osiris's benefit.

How is this settlement a benefit to Osiris? They lose an incredible amount of sovereignty over this.

So LKE did their actions for their own benefit, not for Osiris' benefit? Highly unsurprising coming from the imperialist sphere. A liberation would have achieved exactly what has been achieved, getting the region back, except it would have happened quicker and it wouldn't have forced Osiris to sign a degrading peace treaty.

That's not what I said, and a liberation wouldn't have been practical. the only reason the numbers might have gotten to a 40 distance even in the first place was because, in order to not get banjected, all non-updaters, from such regions as the GCR allies of Osiris, Mazeria, etc, would have to endorse TDE so as not to appear a threat. You are not thinking about GCR conflict, but conflict in your standard founderless region.

Your continued ignorance, Southwick and Mahaj, which has to either be a record, or wilfull, is astounding.

I think you have no clue as to the feasibility of the liberation.

[Whiskum]

As I say, we have no reason to deploy if we do not benefit. Osiris also benefits substantially from the return of its region. It is to mutual benefit./quote]

You deploy because you support a stable, free, and democratic Osiris. But I guess that is only when it serves you.

Edit: Fixing bb code

As the Prime Minister's statement asserted from the outset, for us a precondition for a stable and free Osiris was the removal of UDL and FRA influence. A precondition for a democratic Osiris was Cormac becoming Delegate. We have secured a solution to bring both about.

If the UDL and the FRA really cannot see that the guaranteed return of the Delegacy to Cormac serves Osiris, then that is strange.

[Southwick]

So LKE did their actions for their own benefit, not for Osiris' benefit? Highly unsurprising coming from the imperialist sphere. A liberation would have achieved exactly what has been achieved, getting the region back, except it would have happened quicker and it wouldn't have forced Osiris to sign a degrading peace treaty.

That's not what I said, and a liberation wouldn't have been practical. the only reason the numbers might have gotten to a 40 distance even in the first place was because, in order to not get banjected, all non-updaters, from such regions as the GCR allies of Osiris, Mazeria, etc, would have to endorse TDE so as not to appear a threat. You are not thinking about GCR conflict, but conflict in your standard founderless region.

Your continued ignorance, Southwick and Mahaj, which has to either be a record, or wilfull, is astounding.

If the UIAF endorsers had switched, they would have been kicked. You had 30-40 endorsements, they don't switch on a dime. If TNLKE had worked on a liberation with the UDL, FRA, Euro, Mazeria, Spiritus, and everyone else, it could have worked. Instead, you took the long route that benefited you.

[Southwick]

As the Prime Minister's statement asserted from the outset, for us a precondition for a stable and free Osiris was the removal of UDL and FRA influence. A precondition for a democratic Osiris was Cormac becoming Delegate. We have secured a solution to bring both about.

If the UDL and the FRA really cannot see that the guaranteed return of the Delegacy to Cormac serves Osiris, then that is strange.

You highly overestimate the instability that holding an embassy with defenders brings. I'm not seeing why that is a precondition for a free Osiris.

[Mahaj]

As the Prime Minister's statement asserted from the outset, for us a precondition for a stable and free Osiris was the removal of UDL and FRA influence. A precondition for a democratic Osiris was Cormac becoming Delegate. We have secured a solution to bring both about.

If the UDL and the FRA really cannot see that the guaranteed return of the Delegacy to Cormac serves Osiris, then that is strange.

It is clear how the return helps Osiris.

It is less clear that the agreements other terms help.

But a question: Was the government of Osiris aware of the precondition of "removal of UDL and FRA influence" when they approved the LKE coming in?
That's just a simple yes or no.

[Cerian Quilor]

As I say, we have no reason to deploy if we do not benefit. Osiris also benefits substantially from the return of its region. It is to mutual benefit.

I disagree entirely that an update military 'liberation' was possible with our support and any military option for liberation was made substantially more possible with our forces in the region able to potentially switch sides. This made a negotiated settlement a reality, to Osiris's benefit.

How is this settlement a benefit to Osiris? They lose an incredible amount of sovereignty over this.

That's not what I said, and a liberation wouldn't have been practical. the only reason the numbers might have gotten to a 40 distance even in the first place was because, in order to not get banjected, all non-updaters, from such regions as the GCR allies of Osiris, Mazeria, etc, would have to endorse TDE so as not to appear a threat. You are not thinking about GCR conflict, but conflict in your standard founderless region.

Your continued ignorance, Southwick and Mahaj, which has to either be a record, or wilfull, is astounding.

I think you have no clue as to the feasibility of the liberation.

Osiris loses none of its sovreignty. They don't have to make changes to their policies or structures. They have to make certain concessions in the peace treaty, yes, but all peace treaties are give and take. And you continue to ignore the fact that it was the UDL, not Osiris, UIAF or Gatesville, that saw to it that UDL-Osiris relations were cut.

The realities of military gameplay are something I'm quite familiar with. I know the UDL can call together an impressive number of updaters, if pressed for the need, but most of them are usually inexperienced and slow, and their arrival can be uncertain or unreliable in the first place.

If UIAF endorsers had switched, after cross endorsing for so long in the region, it would have beggared Durk's influence levels. This was a conflict of attrition, not of pure manuever.

[Mahaj]

How is this settlement a benefit to Osiris? They lose an incredible amount of sovereignty over this.


I think you have no clue as to the feasibility of the liberation.

Osiris loses none of its sovreignty. They don't have to make changes to their policies or structures. They have to make certain concessions in the peace treaty, yes, but all peace treaties are give and take. And you continue to ignore the fact that it was the UDL, not Osiris, UIAF or Gatesville, that saw to it that UDL-Osiris relations were cut.

it was not

If UIAF endorsers had switched, after cross endorsing for so long in the region, it would have beggared Durk's influence levels. This was a conflict of attrition, not of pure manuever.

Indeed, this i recognize.

[Cerian Quilor]

Osiris loses none of its sovreignty. They don't have to make changes to their policies or structures. They have to make certain concessions in the peace treaty, yes, but all peace treaties are give and take. And you continue to ignore the fact that it was the UDL, not Osiris, UIAF or Gatesville, that saw to it that UDL-Osiris relations were cut.

it was not

If UIAF endorsers had switched, after cross endorsing for so long in the region, it would have beggared Durk's influence levels. This was a conflict of attrition, not of pure manuever.

Indeed, this i recognize.

I'm more inclined to trust the Kemetic Republic over the UDL in this, Mahaj, given the UDL's history of duplicity, political schizophrenia and mismanagement of...well, just about everything.

If you recognize this, then you understand exactly the nature of the UIAF operation in Osiris, and are indeed just trying to score political points.

[Whiskum]

As the Prime Minister's statement asserted from the outset, for us a precondition for a stable and free Osiris was the removal of UDL and FRA influence. A precondition for a democratic Osiris was Cormac becoming Delegate. We have secured a solution to bring both about.

If the UDL and the FRA really cannot see that the guaranteed return of the Delegacy to Cormac serves Osiris, then that is strange.

It is clear how the return helps Osiris.

It is less clear that the agreements other terms help.

But a question: Was the government of Osiris aware of the precondition of "removal of UDL and FRA influence" when they approved the LKE coming in?
That's just a simple yes or no.

No: there was zero discussion of removing UDL and FRA influence when a UIAF deployment was approved.

They were aware that we wanted to leverage negotiations between them and Gatesville. Negotiations naturally involve concessions by all sides.

Ultimately, Osiris is better off as a result. If the LKE and TNI were not also better off through an Osiris which is more stable and free of UDL and FRA influence as well as democratic, then we would have had no incentive to deploy. That deployment has helped Osiris far more than anything else.

[Mahaj]

It is clear how the return helps Osiris.

It is less clear that the agreements other terms help.

But a question: Was the government of Osiris aware of the precondition of "removal of UDL and FRA influence" when they approved the LKE coming in?
That's just a simple yes or no.

No: there was zero discussion of removing UDL and FRA influence when a UIAF deployment was approved.

They were aware that we wanted to leverage negotiations between them and Gatesville. Negotiations naturally involve concessions by all sides.

Ultimately, Osiris is better off as a result. If the LKE and TNI were not also better off through an Osiris which is more stable and free of UDL and FRA influence as well as democratic, then we would have had no incentive to deploy. That deployment has helped Osiris far more than anything else.

When was the Osiris government made aware that the LKE desired the result of removing defender influence?

[Cerian Quilor]

At the negotiating table.

[Whiskum]

No: there was zero discussion of removing UDL and FRA influence when a UIAF deployment was approved.

They were aware that we wanted to leverage negotiations between them and Gatesville. Negotiations naturally involve concessions by all sides.

Ultimately, Osiris is better off as a result. If the LKE and TNI were not also better off through an Osiris which is more stable and free of UDL and FRA influence as well as democratic, then we would have had no incentive to deploy. That deployment has helped Osiris far more than anything else.

When was the Osiris government made aware that the LKE desired the result of removing defender influence?

I have already explained that was not a factor in the discussions regarding the deployment.

I think the Osiris, and everyone else active in NationStates gameplay, is aware of the LKE's attitude to the FRA and the UDL, if that's what you're asking.

[Solm]

I would just like to clarify. The UDL influence in Osiris that the LKE was so graciously liberating Osiris from was their belief that the UDL had Osiris post propaganda pieces for them. This accusation is just mind-baffling. In case people haven't heard, most of Osiris dislikes the UDL, they would never, ever let the UDL boss them around under any circumstance. Osiris would never post something on the UDL's behalf, and they are more likely to criticize us frequently than let us influence them.

For the record, this is what the LKE was trying to liberate Osiris from:

12:46] sam: Osiris is glad of your help, and everyone else's.
[12:46] Mahaj: to him thats a plus
[12:46] NES: Thank you
[12:46] Zyvetskistaahn: permanent damage to its sovereignty
[12:46] Mahaj: to nes thats a plus though
[12:46] NES: UDL was damaging Osiris's sovereignty.
[12:46] Zyvetskistaahn: bah
[12:46] Mahaj: lol nes
[12:46] NES: Look at some fo the trash that was published.
[12:46] Mahaj: how was the udl doing that
[12:46] Mahaj: okay lets look
[12:46] NES: ^
[12:46] sam: The UDL doesn't get to lecture on gcr sovereignty
[12:46] Mahaj: the udl issued a statement about how we hope osiris will be free
[12:47] NES: In the name of Osiris.
[12:47] Solm: NES: UDL was damaging Osiris's sovereignty. <-- And LKE isn't?
[12:47] Solm: And GV isn't?
[12:47] Mahaj: osiris issued a statement on how horrible the udl was
[12:47] Solm: GV is making them do whatever the hell they want.
[12:47] Mahaj: sam: the udl is not
[12:47] NES: No, stuff published by Osiris that was on behalf of UDL.
[12:47] Mahaj: really
[12:47] Mahaj: show me
[12:47] Solm: Wait what?
[12:47] Solm: Osiris published something on our behalf?
[12:47] Mahaj: cuz the udl never asked osiris to publish anything
[12:47] AbbeyPhone: And you could argue that TNI/LKE is damaging to Balder's sovreignity
[12:47] Solm: When was this? If you haven't heard, Osiris disliked the UDL
[12:47] AbbeyPhone: ^
[12:47] Mahaj: sam: you seem very quick to say "the UDL doesn't have a right to say x"
[12:48] Mahaj: is it because you're afraid of being questioned?
[12:48] AbbeyPhone: Of things that Osi is, a hotbed of UDL crap it is not
[12:48] Solm: Believe me when I say this, Osiris would never bend over to the UDL if we asked them to do something. They would yell at us forever.
[12:48] NES: Like this, viewtopic.php?f=12&t=236095
[12:48] Biyah`Tomb reads and snorts
[12:48] Biyah`Tomb: good god, you people are all drama queens
[12:48] AbbeyPhone: I'd have left by now if it were
[12:48] Solm: You think that was by the UDL?
[12:48] Mahaj: lol nes
[12:48] Mahaj: thats not udl
[12:48] Mahaj: loooool
[12:48] NES: lol
[12:48] Solm: So UIAF was mad that Osiris posted a propaganda piece against them and this is the reason for all of this.
[12:48] Mahaj: the udl didn't ask for osiris to publish that, whoever wrote that did it of their own free will

EDIT: Emphasis mine to highlight the necessary part.

For the record, that "propaganda" piece was by someone within Osiris totally on their own volition. The UDL had nothing to do with that. Osiris would never let anyone do that to them, nor would the UDL ever ask them to do so or want them to do so. So please, let's stop this "UDL influencing Osiris." Because really, the only one influencing Osiris is GV and Durk demanding them to bend over backwards to whatever fits their fancy that moment.

[North East Somerset]

I think UDL members of Osiris should wait for Cormac to make a statement and support his return to the Delegacy. Who is your Leader, Cormac or Mahaj? Consider that.

[Anarchic Plains]

I think UDL members of Osiris should wait for Cormac to make a statement and support his return to the Delegacy. Who is your Leader, Cormac or Mahaj? Consider that.

Because everything in life is black and white.

[North East Somerset]

I think UDL members of Osiris should wait for Cormac to make a statement and support his return to the Delegacy. Who is your Leader, Cormac or Mahaj? Consider that.

Because everything in life is black and white.

Either you support Cormac, or you find the anti-UDL actions by Osiris under Cormac to be unnacceptably detrimental, and thus support Mahaj. Not very complicated, really. I know I support the elected Pharoah, and consider the only detrimental influence in Osiris to be that of the UDL.

[Mahaj]

Because everything in life is black and white.

Either you support Cormac, or you find the anti-UDL actions by Osiris under Cormac to be unnacceptably detrimental, and thus support Mahaj. Not very complicated, really. I know I support the elected Pharoah, and consider the only detrimental influence in Osiris to be that of the UDL.

Of course, the UDL *has* no influence in Osiris, so you're once again just talking about complete nonsense.

The UDL naturally supports the elected pharaoh, Cormac, and has consistently hoped for the freedom of Osiris.

Perhaps one can support Cormac while not agreeing with everything he does. It must be hard for you to get your head around that concept, but its true.

[Charax II]

Because everything in life is black and white.

Either you support Cormac, or you find the anti-UDL actions by Osiris under Cormac to be unnacceptably detrimental, and thus support Mahaj.

I disagree with Cormac signing the treaty and I have no opinion toward UDL influence in Osiris, because it doesn't exist.

[Everbeek]

All this time I was trying to help regain Cormac's delegacy and now I find out he deliberately prolonged the coup just to get rid of people like me? What a bloody waste of my time

[North East Somerset]

All this time I was trying to help regain Cormac's delegacy and now I find out he deliberately prolonged the coup just to get rid of people like me? What a bloody waste of my time

I don't think he deliberately prolonged the coup at all. That's a ridicolous suggestion.

[Biyah]

The Ridiculous is becoming common atm.