Detroit is now officially bankrupt.

[Christmahanikwanzikah]

Interestingly, even as the city's emergency manager (imposed against the expressed will of the people) is preparing to shaft pensions and other employee obligations, the City of Detroit is now preparing to pay $283 million of taxpayers' money to subsidise the cost of a privately-owned sports stadium. Needless to say, the owner of the Detroit Red Wings (for whom the Stadium is being built at taxpayer expense) can well afford to pay for it out of pocket change - Mike Ilitch is worth $2.7 billion as of March, meaning that personally financing the entire stadium ($444m total cost) would cost him roughly fifteen percent of his fortune. Instead, he gets to stick it to the taxpayer thanks to Kevin Orr's generosity, even as the City whose finances Orr is supposed to be mending is filing for bankruptcy.

And yet, how much money is the city going to make over the lifetime of the arena's operation? The Red Wings are one of the surest bets in all of hockey, considering that they're one of the handful of teams in the league that are profitable, and Ilitch's apparent desire to revitalize Detroit using sports (the payroll of the Detroit Tigers has risen sharply after the opening of Comerica Park).

It's an investment, and it's just as silly to criticize this one as it is for Republicans to criticize infrastructure investment in other parts of the country.

I see the same thing in academia: My alma mater, the University of Michigan, prides itself on its academic achievement — but don't think anything gets in the way of Wolverine Football or Basketball. Often, this "anything" reaches the point of shameful embarrassment: Star basketball player can't pass a class to save his life? Just give him the grades and turn a blind eye to the whole stinking situation; star football player gets arrested on a drunk and disorderly charge? Just sweep the whole thing under the rug.

I wish we could curb the idiotic influence of fandom on academics and municipal politics, but we can't. So I grit my teeth and ignore it.

A quick Google search shows that one of his daughters hosted a $1 million "pizza party"/fundraiser for Obama at one point. One hopes that Little Caesars wasn't served.

Unfortunately, that issue also primarily boils down to profit - U. of M. rakes in an obscene amount of money through their football program, and solely by participation in the Big Ten, they're entitled to shared profits on any big television deals or Bowl berths from being associated.

This is an issue that the NCAA and schools alike are going to have to tackle much sooner than later. NCAA football is becoming super-conference driven, with a sizeable amount of revenue going to three large conferences in particular, with profits from football teams being the driving force. If the trend continues, and if the NCAA continues to refuse to use some of this revenue to assist some of its student-athletes, then the academic side of the affair will likely suffer more.

[New Chalcedon]

Interestingly, even as the city's emergency manager (imposed against the expressed will of the people) is preparing to shaft pensions and other employee obligations, the City of Detroit is now preparing to pay $283 million of taxpayers' money to subsidise the cost of a privately-owned sports stadium. Needless to say, the owner of the Detroit Red Wings (for whom the Stadium is being built at taxpayer expense) can well afford to pay for it out of pocket change - Mike Ilitch is worth $2.7 billion as of March, meaning that personally financing the entire stadium ($444m total cost) would cost him roughly fifteen percent of his fortune. Instead, he gets to stick it to the taxpayer thanks to Kevin Orr's generosity, even as the City whose finances Orr is supposed to be mending is filing for bankruptcy.

How much do people want to bet he's contributing to various Republican super-PACs? This is no longer about ideology: it's about corruption and brazen theft from the public purse, on a scale unseen since the Roman Empire. Any Michiganer who votes Republican after this clusterfuck is establishing that they don't giveadamn if their elected officials are crooks, so long as they only steal from the black people.

EDIT: As someone else I know commented - it's like Schrodinger's Budget. There's either no money at all in the Detroit budgets, or all the money in the world - it just depends on who's doing the asking. For people who worked for the City their whole lives, nothing. For some billionaire who wants a corporate handout for his personal sports stadium, plenty.

Republican Governance 101.

I don't know if Ilitch is a Democrat or Republican. What I do know is that he owns the Tigers and the Red Wings, and that either bloc of fans are as powerful as any political Party.

Consequently, I'm going to disagree with you on this one, NC: The problem of sports franchises demanding and getting massive amounts of money from municipal governments — even when those governments are utterly broke — is a bipartisan problem, largely fueled by the crazy impact that fandom has on our society.

I see the same thing in academia: My alma mater, the University of Michigan, prides itself on its academic achievement — but don't think anything gets in the way of Wolverine Football or Basketball. Often, this "anything" reaches the point of shameful embarrassment: Star basketball player can't pass a class to save his life? Just give him the grades and turn a blind eye to the whole stinking situation; star football player gets arrested on a drunk and disorderly charge? Just sweep the whole thing under the rug.

I wish we could curb the idiotic influence of fandom on academics and municipal politics, but we can't. So I grit my teeth and ignore it.

ADDENDUM: Mike Ilitch's FEC filing documents can be found online. The most recent beneficiaries of his political largesse have apparently been the MLB (Major Legaue Baseball) PAC, followed by (New York) Senators Chuck Schumer and Kirsten Gillibrand, both Democrats; after that, his money has gone to Representatives Candice Miller (a Republican from MI-10) and Bart Stupak (a Democrat from MI-1). He has also given money to Democratic Congressman Charlie Rangel (NY-15), Democratic Senators Carl Levin (of Michigan), Harry Reid (of Nevada) and Daniel Inouye (of Hawaii [now deceased]), Republican Congressman Don Young (Alaska [at Large]), and Mark Kennedy (a failed Republican candidate for Congress in Minnesota). In the '08 Presidential race, he appears to have backed Republican (Former) Mayor Rudy Guiliani (of New York); he has also given to both Parties' Senatorial Campaign Committees; in '88 and '92 he gave money to George H.W. Bush, but then in '04 he gave money to HRC's "Friends of Hillary" PAC, so he might not be out of the question for her in '16 (if he's still around; he's 84 [my father's age], but not in great health).

Overall, his contributions have been split evenly between Democrats ($44,450) and Republicans ($44,200), with another $121,422 to special interest PAC's.

So all in all, I'd probably guess that he's a typical moderate Republican with a strong taste for pro-business Democrats. I have no idea who he backed in '12 (with Citizens United, it would likely have been a secret contribution), but given that he supported Carol Moseley Brown in '98, he could very well have gone either way (or both, just to keep the lines of communication open).

Fair enough, Ilitch isn't a Republican. He's just a corruptionist rent-seeking parasitic piece of filth who thinks that because he's made it big, this means he never has to pay for anything again.

Sad thing is, judging by the evidence he's right.

Interestingly, even as the city's emergency manager (imposed against the expressed will of the people) is preparing to shaft pensions and other employee obligations, the City of Detroit is now preparing to pay $283 million of taxpayers' money to subsidise the cost of a privately-owned sports stadium. Needless to say, the owner of the Detroit Red Wings (for whom the Stadium is being built at taxpayer expense) can well afford to pay for it out of pocket change - Mike Ilitch is worth $2.7 billion as of March, meaning that personally financing the entire stadium ($444m total cost) would cost him roughly fifteen percent of his fortune. Instead, he gets to stick it to the taxpayer thanks to Kevin Orr's generosity, even as the City whose finances Orr is supposed to be mending is filing for bankruptcy.

And yet, how much money is the city going to make over the lifetime of the arena's operation? The Red Wings are one of the surest bets in all of hockey, considering that they're one of the handful of teams in the league that are profitable, and Ilitch's apparent desire to revitalize Detroit using sports (the payroll of the Detroit Tigers has risen sharply after the opening of Comerica Park).

It's an investment, and it's just as silly to criticize this one as it is for Republicans to criticize infrastructure investment in other parts of the country.

Sports stadiums are not roads. They are not privately owned, and they don't cost the taxpayers money only to funnel all the profits into private pockets. They, unlike sports stadiums, are also actually kinda necessary for day-to-day life. If the Red Wings are so profitable, then they can pay for their own fucking stadium, rather than sticking the bill to taxpayers while the streetlights can't turn on and the schools and police forces are drastically understaffed.

And don't kid yourself - Ilitch's only desire is to get even richer. And if that means that he has to stick it to the taxpayers on a constant basis (Comerica Park is also an example of such parasitism - you think that highly-paid stable of sports stars is actually living in Detroit, or contributing one penny toward its finances? Fuck no - they live in the affluent white suburbs, and pay their money to municipal governments that don't have to pay for the upkeep of the stadium) so that he can take home the profits, all the better.

Socialised costs, privatised profits - the model of neoliberal corruptionist rent-seeking governance. This isn't about "investment" - this is about the vulture capitalists, like that shitbird Ilitch, circling over the corpse of Detroit to ensure that no meat's left for the working stiffs after they're done gorging themselves, their investors, their families, their investors' families and their offshored retirement funds.

But hey, you've gotten your false equivalence of the day off in good fashion, so who cares about the fucking facts? Or about the pension funds that'll be stiffed to pay for this? Or about the schoolteachers who go without pay? Or the cops?

The rich man has his shiny new toy, and that's what's important in this day and age.

[Alien Space Bats]

It's an investment, and it's just as silly to criticize this one as it is for Republicans to criticize infrastructure investment in other parts of the country.

That may be, but it's certainly an investment that's open to question.

... [Y]ou think that highly-paid stable of sports stars is actually living in Detroit, or contributing one penny toward its finances? Fuck no - they live in the affluent white suburbs, and pay their money to municipal governments that don't have to pay for the upkeep of the stadium) so that he can take home the profits, all the better.

Well, actually they do; everybody who works in Detroit does. Granted, what they pay isn't much; but it's something.

<clears throat, digs up data>

To wit:

The Detroit Tigers' player payroll is a matter of record: In 2013, it's $148,414,500. Assuming that all players on the roster live outside the City, and that they are only taxed by the City on games played at Comerica Park, then that represents $742,072.50 in direct revenue. Add in the 1% non-resident income tax for everyone else who works at the park on game day, and the City probably clears $1 million a year in direct revenue off the team.

After that, the question then becomes how much indirect revenue, both in increased income taxes and property taxes. That is much harder to estimate. I have to wonder, however, if it's enough to justify what the City has plowed into the team, particularly given that they money they've used to do it has been borrowed from Wall Street at junk bond rates.

IOW, it's not a slam dunk.

The Red Wings represent a similar quandary. Their total player salary w/bonuses runs to $69,275,379 (again, that's a matter of public record). For the year, then, they pay the City $346,376.90 in income taxes (again, assuming that they're all non-residents). Throw in everybody else who works at the Joe on game night and you're probably looking at over $500,000 a year in property taxes.

Paying $283 million for a revenue stream of $500,000 a year is a very poor investment (it's less that a 0.2% return on said investment), so other factors have to be considered. Given the City's bond rating, it would have to be pulling in over $28 million in taxes (less expenses such as added police and EMS salaries for game night) for this to be a break-even proposition. I doubt that it is.

That said, one could argue that civic pride, economic opportunity for residents, etc., should also be considered ― and maybe they should be. But if we go down that path, then we're in perilous territory: Should the City be borrowing and spending money it doesn't have (and isn't going to recapture through taxes) to make life better for its residents? And if so, then what are we saying about municipal government overall as a social proposition?

I see the same thing in academia: My alma mater, the University of Michigan, prides itself on its academic achievement — but don't think anything gets in the way of Wolverine Football or Basketball. Often, this "anything" reaches the point of shameful embarrassment: Star basketball player can't pass a class to save his life? Just give him the grades and turn a blind eye to the whole stinking situation; star football player gets arrested on a drunk and disorderly charge? Just sweep the whole thing under the rug.

I wish we could curb the idiotic influence of fandom on academics and municipal politics, but we can't. So I grit my teeth and ignore it.

A quick Google search shows that one of his daughters hosted a $1 million "pizza party"/fundraiser for Obama at one point. One hopes that Little Caesars wasn't served.

Unfortunately, that issue also primarily boils down to profit - U. of M. rakes in an obscene amount of money through their football program, and solely by participation in the Big Ten, they're entitled to shared profits on any big television deals or Bowl berths from being associated.

This is an issue that the NCAA and schools alike are going to have to tackle much sooner than later. NCAA football is becoming super-conference driven, with a sizeable amount of revenue going to three large conferences in particular, with profits from football teams being the driving force. If the trend continues, and if the NCAA continues to refuse to use some of this revenue to assist some of its student-athletes, then the academic side of the affair will likely suffer more.

The interesting thing is that all that money isn't finding its way to the academic side of the institution; it is, for the most part, remaining within the Athletic Department, where much of it goes right back into the football program. What doesn't subsidizes other sports, which means that the real benefit is to the men's swimming program, or the women's soccer program, or whatever.

That bowl and TV revenue certainly hasn't gone towards defraying tuition increases, building new dorms, equipping labs, or any of the other things that need to be done to support the school as a world-class institution. And I'm fairly sure that's true pretty much everywhere else in academia.

Beyond being a Michigan alumnus, however, I'm also a "townie"; and in that regard, I also have to wonder if the added business on "Football Saturdays" really justifies the perpetual state of construction that is Stadium Avenue between Liberty St. and Industrial Ave., or the closure of Ann Arbor-Saline Rd. all the way down to I-94 six times a year, forcing the residents of Ann Arbor's southwest side to detour several miles in order to get anywhere for much of the day.

It's the sort of thing I'd really like to see a thorough study on, but I rather expect that I never will. Too many of these things involve cost-shifting, and most studies never take that into account.

[Christmahanikwanzikah]

And yet, how much money is the city going to make over the lifetime of the arena's operation? The Red Wings are one of the surest bets in all of hockey, considering that they're one of the handful of teams in the league that are profitable, and Ilitch's apparent desire to revitalize Detroit using sports (the payroll of the Detroit Tigers has risen sharply after the opening of Comerica Park).

It's an investment, and it's just as silly to criticize this one as it is for Republicans to criticize infrastructure investment in other parts of the country.

Sports stadiums are not roads. They are not privately owned, and they don't cost the taxpayers money only to funnel all the profits into private pockets. They, unlike sports stadiums, are also actually kinda necessary for day-to-day life. If the Red Wings are so profitable, then they can pay for their own fucking stadium, rather than sticking the bill to taxpayers while the streetlights can't turn on and the schools and police forces are drastically understaffed.

So you're saying that Mike Ilitch is going to make a ton of money because a ton of people are going to pay boatloads of money for ticekts, merchandise, concessions, parking, et. al., most of which generates tax income for the city and state?

Man, that sounds terrible for Detroit.

But hey, if Detroit went and listened to your plan and told Ilitch to either pony up or skip town, I'm sure Ilitch would've been glad to move the team to a city that would've paid more than half of the initial cost of the structure at the cost of raising local taxes. Sure, Red Wings fans would be seeing... well, red, but they'd get over it eventually. Mostly. Just like Cleveland with the Browns, Baltimore with the Colts, or Seattle with the Supersonics. Sure, maybe the NHL would drop an expansion team in place of the departed Red Wings. Or maybe the owners of the Phoenix Coyotes would wise up and take the 3:10 leaving Glendale. And sure, those teams would probably ask of Detroit the same thing Mike Ilitch asked of it.

But maybe not. Maybe by making that move, Detroit would be mortgaging the future for the present.

And don't kid yourself - Ilitch's only desire is to get even richer.

Yeah, no, that's established.

And if that means that he has to stick it to the taxpayers on a constant basis (Comerica Park is also an example of such parasitism - you think that highly-paid stable of sports stars is actually living in Detroit, or contributing one penny toward its finances? Fuck no - they live in the affluent white suburbs, and pay their money to municipal governments that don't have to pay for the upkeep of the stadium) so that he can take home the profits, all the better.

Is that really why you think I was referencing the payroll of the Detroit Tigers? Sorry, it wasn't. Instead of playing the role of the 2013 Miami Marlins (the ones that gutted their payroll after the 2012 season, their "Grand Opening" of sorts in a brand-new, taxpayer-funded ballpark; considering they had already done this after the 1997 and 2003 seasons, completely expected), or the role typical of the Tampa Bay Rays or Oakland Athletics (which has commonly been referred to derisively as 'moneyball' - no, not the one with Brad Pitt), Ilitch is fielding the 4th-highest paid team in baseball.

So, rather than build a new stadium and keep player salary as low as possible to eke out as much profit as possible, he's fielding a team that puts butts in seats, which typically means tax dollars.

Socialised costs, privatised profits - the model of neoliberal corruptionist rent-seeking governance. This isn't about "investment" - this is about the vulture capitalists, like that shitbird Ilitch, circling over the corpse of Detroit to ensure that no meat's left for the working stiffs after they're done gorging themselves, their investors, their families, their investors' families and their offshored retirement funds.

But hey, you've gotten your false equivalence of the day off in good fashion, so who cares about the fucking facts? Or about the pension funds that'll be stiffed to pay for this? Or about the schoolteachers who go without pay? Or the cops?

I'm sure you're able to source your claim that Ilitch is out to gut Detroit. And your claims about how the public burden will be shifted.

[Christmahanikwanzikah]

It's an investment, and it's just as silly to criticize this one as it is for Republicans to criticize infrastructure investment in other parts of the country.

That may be, but it's certainly an investment that's open to question.

... [Y]ou think that highly-paid stable of sports stars is actually living in Detroit, or contributing one penny toward its finances? Fuck no - they live in the affluent white suburbs, and pay their money to municipal governments that don't have to pay for the upkeep of the stadium) so that he can take home the profits, all the better.

Well, actually they do; everybody who works in Detroit does. Granted, what they pay isn't much; but it's something.

<clears throat, digs up data>

To wit:

The Detroit Tigers' player payroll is a matter of record: In 2013, it's $148,414,500. Assuming that all players on the roster live outside the City, and that they are only taxed by the City on games played at Comerica Park, then that represents $742,072.50 in direct revenue. Add in the 1% non-resident income tax for everyone else who works at the park on game day, and the City probably clears $1 million a year in direct revenue off the team.

After that, the question then becomes how much indirect revenue, both in increased income taxes and property taxes. That is much harder to estimate. I have to wonder, however, if it's enough to justify what the City has plowed into the team, particularly given that they money they've used to do it has been borrowed from Wall Street at junk bond rates.

IOW, it's not a slam dunk.

The Red Wings represent a similar quandary. Their total player salary w/bonuses runs to $69,275,379 (again, that's a matter of public record). For the year, then, they pay the City $346,376.90 in income taxes (again, assuming that they're all non-residents). Throw in everybody else who works at the Joe on game night and you're probably looking at over $500,000 a year in property taxes.

Paying $283 million for a revenue stream of $500,000 a year is a very poor investment (it's less that a 0.2% return on said investment), so other factors have to be considered. Given the City's bond rating, it would have to be pulling in over $28 million in taxes (less expenses such as added police and EMS salaries for game night) for this to be a break-even proposition. I doubt that it is.

That said, one could argue that civic pride, economic opportunity for residents, etc., should also be considered ― and maybe they should be. But if we go down that path, then we're in perilous territory: Should the City be borrowing and spending money it doesn't have (and isn't going to recapture through taxes) to make life better for its residents? And if so, then what are we saying about municipal government overall as a social proposition?

Apparently, the "old" Joe Louis Arena nets the city of Detroit $2+ million in annual revenue, after subtracting expenses. Detroit is also apparently owed $1.5 million in use taxes due to the expiration of the prior 30 year lease. Which is peanuts compared to $283 million, but this is, again, only direct cost.

In addition to indirect cost estimates, I'd like to see how much of the $283 million investment is going to labor costs vs. material costs, but a cursory Google search isn't dredging up anything.

I see the same thing in academia: My alma mater, the University of Michigan, prides itself on its academic achievement — but don't think anything gets in the way of Wolverine Football or Basketball. Often, this "anything" reaches the point of shameful embarrassment: Star basketball player can't pass a class to save his life? Just give him the grades and turn a blind eye to the whole stinking situation; star football player gets arrested on a drunk and disorderly charge? Just sweep the whole thing under the rug.

I wish we could curb the idiotic influence of fandom on academics and municipal politics, but we can't. So I grit my teeth and ignore it.

A quick Google search shows that one of his daughters hosted a $1 million "pizza party"/fundraiser for Obama at one point. One hopes that Little Caesars wasn't served.

Unfortunately, that issue also primarily boils down to profit - U. of M. rakes in an obscene amount of money through their football program, and solely by participation in the Big Ten, they're entitled to shared profits on any big television deals or Bowl berths from being associated.

This is an issue that the NCAA and schools alike are going to have to tackle much sooner than later. NCAA football is becoming super-conference driven, with a sizeable amount of revenue going to three large conferences in particular, with profits from football teams being the driving force. If the trend continues, and if the NCAA continues to refuse to use some of this revenue to assist some of its student-athletes, then the academic side of the affair will likely suffer more.

The interesting thing is that all that money isn't finding its way to the academic side of the institution; it is, for the most part, remaining within the Athletic Department, where much of it goes right back into the football program. What doesn't subsidizes other sports, which means that the real benefit is to the men's swimming program, or the women's soccer program, or whatever.

That bowl and TV revenue certainly hasn't gone towards defraying tuition increases, building new dorms, equipping labs, or any of the other things that need to be done to support the school as a world-class institution. And I'm fairly sure that's true pretty much everywhere else in academia.

Beyond being a Michigan alumnus, however, I'm also a "townie"; and in that regard, I also have to wonder if the added business on "Football Saturdays" really justifies the perpetual state of construction that is Stadium Avenue between Liberty St. and Industrial Ave., or the closure of Ann Arbor-Saline Rd. all the way down to I-94 six times a year, forcing the residents of Ann Arbor's southwest side to detour several miles in order to get anywhere for much of the day.

It's the sort of thing I'd really like to see a thorough study on, but I rather expect that I never will. Too many of these things involve cost-shifting, and most studies never take that into account.[/quote]

I'd definitely like to see that too. I'm alright with the football team being self-sufficient, but to the extent that it doesn't also negatively impact student-athlete academics, or academics on the whole.

Anecdotally, I've seen a huge jump in academic prowress going from a school that didn't even have a Div. II football squad to a school with a Div. I squad. Even if a healthy chunk of that increase was due to moving from the CSU system to the flagship of the SUNY system.

[New Chalcedon]

Sports stadiums are not roads. They are not privately owned, and they don't cost the taxpayers money only to funnel all the profits into private pockets. They, unlike sports stadiums, are also actually kinda necessary for day-to-day life. If the Red Wings are so profitable, then they can pay for their own fucking stadium, rather than sticking the bill to taxpayers while the streetlights can't turn on and the schools and police forces are drastically understaffed.

So you're saying that Mike Ilitch is going to make a ton of money because a ton of people are going to pay boatloads of money for ticekts, merchandise, concessions, parking, et. al., most of which generates tax income for the city and state?

Man, that sounds terrible for Detroit.

But hey, if Detroit went and listened to your plan and told Ilitch to either pony up or skip town, I'm sure Ilitch would've been glad to move the team to a city that would've paid more than half of the initial cost of the structure at the cost of raising local taxes. Sure, Red Wings fans would be seeing... well, red, but they'd get over it eventually. Mostly. Just like Cleveland with the Browns, Baltimore with the Colts, or Seattle with the Supersonics. Sure, maybe the NHL would drop an expansion team in place of the departed Red Wings. Or maybe the owners of the Phoenix Coyotes would wise up and take the 3:10 leaving Glendale. And sure, those teams would probably ask of Detroit the same thing Mike Ilitch asked of it.

But maybe not. Maybe by making that move, Detroit would be mortgaging the future for the present.

As opposed to selling out those who did actual work for the City in the past to buy the future. Detroit is in bankruptcy - do you even know what that means? It means that the pension funds and other obligations owed to employees (present and past) are assessed last of all, and have to take what's left.

And this move has just ensured that there'll be $283 million less for them.

And don't kid yourself - Ilitch's only desire is to get even richer.

Yeah, no, that's established.

A man doesn't make billionaire without a keen interest in making huge gobs of money. And if you're suggesting that he's got an interest in philanthropy, then I have only this to say, particularly given his established history of only donating to pro-Wall Street candidates of both parties (c/o Jen Sorensen):

And if that means that he has to stick it to the taxpayers on a constant basis (Comerica Park is also an example of such parasitism - you think that highly-paid stable of sports stars is actually living in Detroit, or contributing one penny toward its finances? Fuck no - they live in the affluent white suburbs, and pay their money to municipal governments that don't have to pay for the upkeep of the stadium) so that he can take home the profits, all the better.

Is that really why you think I was referencing the payroll of the Detroit Tigers? Sorry, it wasn't. Instead of playing the role of the 2013 Miami Marlins (the ones that gutted their payroll after the 2012 season, their "Grand Opening" of sorts in a brand-new, taxpayer-funded ballpark; considering they had already done this after the 1997 and 2003 seasons, completely expected), or the role typical of the Tampa Bay Rays or Oakland Athletics (which has commonly been referred to derisively as 'moneyball' - no, not the one with Brad Pitt), Ilitch is fielding the 4th-highest paid team in baseball.

So, rather than build a new stadium and keep player salary as low as possible to eke out as much profit as possible, he's fielding a team that puts butts in seats, which typically means tax dollars.

And? ASB's gone over the numbers - given the cost of financing for Detroit, it's a bad business decision from their perspective. A second-year finance student could tell Mr. Orr that, so I doubt he doesn't realise it.

Socialised costs, privatised profits - the model of neoliberal corruptionist rent-seeking governance. This isn't about "investment" - this is about the vulture capitalists, like that shitbird Ilitch, circling over the corpse of Detroit to ensure that no meat's left for the working stiffs after they're done gorging themselves, their investors, their families, their investors' families and their offshored retirement funds.

But hey, you've gotten your false equivalence of the day off in good fashion, so who cares about the fucking facts? Or about the pension funds that'll be stiffed to pay for this? Or about the schoolteachers who go without pay? Or the cops?

I'm sure you're able to source your claim that Ilitch is out to gut Detroit. And your claims about how the public burden will be shifted.

At no point did I say that Ilitch is out to gut Detroit. I said he's out to make money, whatever it takes. The fact that he's got billions already is proof enough of that - you don't go from nothing to multi-billionaire without being ruthless at best and completely amoral at worst.

As to the second, ASB's already done the working showing that the rate of return for Detroit is almost certainly lower than the cost of financing - meaning that the net effect of such a decision is to shift money from the City of Detroit to the pockets of Mike Ilitch (who gets the stadium at 1/3 cost) and Wall Street (who gets much more by way of interest payments on their bonds than they would otherwise).

Frankly, your "argument" in favour of the stadium reminds me of the way corporate parasites always argue in favour of their depredations: "If not here, then elsewhere. And you want the joooooobs, right?" The "jobs" that eventuate are almost always fewer than promised, and the costs much higher - not that this bothers the corporates one bit. If Detroit is a good place to build - from a business perspective - then handouts or the lack thereof won't change that a bit. If it's a bad place to build, the handouts or lack of handouts will change it still less.

[Christmahanikwanzikah]

So you're saying that Mike Ilitch is going to make a ton of money because a ton of people are going to pay boatloads of money for ticekts, merchandise, concessions, parking, et. al., most of which generates tax income for the city and state?

Man, that sounds terrible for Detroit.

But hey, if Detroit went and listened to your plan and told Ilitch to either pony up or skip town, I'm sure Ilitch would've been glad to move the team to a city that would've paid more than half of the initial cost of the structure at the cost of raising local taxes. Sure, Red Wings fans would be seeing... well, red, but they'd get over it eventually. Mostly. Just like Cleveland with the Browns, Baltimore with the Colts, or Seattle with the Supersonics. Sure, maybe the NHL would drop an expansion team in place of the departed Red Wings. Or maybe the owners of the Phoenix Coyotes would wise up and take the 3:10 leaving Glendale. And sure, those teams would probably ask of Detroit the same thing Mike Ilitch asked of it.

But maybe not. Maybe by making that move, Detroit would be mortgaging the future for the present.

As opposed to selling out those who did actual work for the City in the past to buy the future. Detroit is in bankruptcy - do you even know what that means? It means that the pension funds and other obligations owed to employees (present and past) are assessed last of all, and have to take what's left.

And this move has just ensured that there'll be $283 million less for them.

Yes, thank you for explaining to me how bankruptcy works. I should count myself lucky that I didn't a "Let Me Google That For You" link.

Is that really why you think I was referencing the payroll of the Detroit Tigers? Sorry, it wasn't. Instead of playing the role of the 2013 Miami Marlins (the ones that gutted their payroll after the 2012 season, their "Grand Opening" of sorts in a brand-new, taxpayer-funded ballpark; considering they had already done this after the 1997 and 2003 seasons, completely expected), or the role typical of the Tampa Bay Rays or Oakland Athletics (which has commonly been referred to derisively as 'moneyball' - no, not the one with Brad Pitt), Ilitch is fielding the 4th-highest paid team in baseball.

So, rather than build a new stadium and keep player salary as low as possible to eke out as much profit as possible, he's fielding a team that puts butts in seats, which typically means tax dollars.

And? ASB's gone over the numbers - given the cost of financing for Detroit, it's a bad business decision from their perspective. A second-year finance student could tell Mr. Orr that, so I doubt he doesn't realise it.

ASB and I have both gone over the direct revenue from the stadium. The indirect revenue for the city is hard to pin down; they (the City) are looking to bring in a total of $1 billion in total revenue over the lifetime (likely 35-40 years) of the stadium's operation. I don't think they'll reach that mark, given the city's decline, but I also believe they'll be able to earn significantly more than the initial investment plus bond interest.

I'm sure you're able to source your claim that Ilitch is out to gut Detroit. And your claims about how the public burden will be shifted.

At no point did I say that Ilitch is out to gut Detroit. I said he's out to make money, whatever it takes. The fact that he's got billions already is proof enough of that - you don't go from nothing to multi-billionaire without being ruthless at best and completely amoral at worst.

As to the second, ASB's already done the working showing that the rate of return for Detroit is almost certainly lower than the cost of financing - meaning that the net effect of such a decision is to shift money from the City of Detroit to the pockets of Mike Ilitch (who gets the stadium at 1/3 cost) and Wall Street (who gets much more by way of interest payments on their bonds than they would otherwise).

Frankly, your "argument" in favour of the stadium reminds me of the way corporate parasites always argue in favour of their depredations: "If not here, then elsewhere. And you want the joooooobs, right?" The "jobs" that eventuate are almost always fewer than promised, and the costs much higher - not that this bothers the corporates one bit. If Detroit is a good place to build - from a business perspective - then handouts or the lack thereof won't change that a bit. If it's a bad place to build, the handouts or lack of handouts will change it still less.

Well, for one, 2/3 cost of the area's development.

And secondly, Detroit is one of the best places to build - from a business perspective - a hockey stadium/franchise. It's one of the few franchises in the NHL that are actually profitable, due in large part to the city's appetite for hockey. And the city was/has been very reasonable with its lease agreement with the Red Wings.

But the point there was that there are other cities eager to bring a major sports team to their door that are willing to pay a huge sum of money for the privilege. The recently-completed Lucas Oil Stadium cost $720 million - only $100 million of that cost coming from the Indianapolis Colts. Marlins Park was just finished last year and had 80% of its $634 million cost funded by Miami-Dade county (And it has obstructed seating. How do you build a ballpark in the 21st century and still end up with obstructed seats?!)

If another city went up to Ilitch and (by way of using public funds to finance a new arena) essentially offered him $100 million up front to move his team to their city, things might get interesting. But both parties acted before the issue of the Red Wings skipping town ever arose.

[Vettrera]

2.) I don't think I properly conveyed what I was trying to say: I was not talking about church affiliation or a belief in God when I said 'moral structure'. Of course protestantism is deeply set in African American Culture, but that is not the same as actually following the tenants of Scripture -- by this I mean that a person can call him/herself a Christian without actually being able to self govern (or being in danger of hell-fires, actually). Being religious does not equate to being responsible. The stereotype of sinning on Saturday and praising on Sunday didn't develop from nothing, and even the most devout struggle with something... it is not shameful to admit that one is not perfect, even though one is a Christian. So, a people can be in church without being moral, and they can believe in a God without being perfectly moral. In fact, a Classical Christian view is that all have sinned, and thus people can only ever be partially moral, strong in some areas and weak in others. I am impressed with the amount of data you produced to prove that, as a block, African Americans are more religious than average Americans, and I am not surprised by that in the least... but that really does not speak to whether they as a block are able to self-govern or not, either in one way or the other. Now, I partly blame the Institution of Slavery for helping to eliminate the African American's ability to self govern, because that barbaric system did all it could to eliminate the humanity of those trapped under it, and those who practiced it felt justified when an African American was unable to self govern, so they encouraged it. Now, the whole nation is spending on debt, so it's not only a Black problem, but I think Slavery might have some to do with it's prevalence in that population.

Did you just call black people irresponsible?

[New Chalcedon]

Yes, thank you for explaining to me how bankruptcy works. I should count myself lucky that I didn't a "Let Me Google That For You" link.

So we are agreed: this move amounts to taking money away from those who have earned it, those whom the city has a moral and legal obligation to pay it to, in order to give it to someone who has not earned it and is not the recipient of any such obligation.

And? ASB's gone over the numbers - given the cost of financing for Detroit, it's a bad business decision from their perspective. A second-year finance student could tell Mr. Orr that, so I doubt he doesn't realise it.

ASB and I have both gone over the direct revenue from the stadium. The indirect revenue for the city is hard to pin down; they (the City) are looking to bring in a total of $1 billion in total revenue over the lifetime (likely 35-40 years) of the stadium's operation. I don't think they'll reach that mark, given the city's decline, but I also believe they'll be able to earn significantly more than the initial investment plus bond interest.

So you're looking at a revenue stream of $25 million per year for 30-40 years?

First, care to explain how you got to that figure, when ASB's figure is an order of magnitude less?
Second, that $25m per year - even assuming you're entirely correct - is rather paltry compared to the cost of servicing $283 million in extra debt at junk-bond rates (which is all that Detroit will get for a long, long time to come).

Well, for one, 2/3 cost of the area's development.

I suppose you're right - Detroit is "only" paying $283 million out of a total cost of $650 million. The State of Michican is ponying up another $160 million or so, leaving Mr. Ilitch out about one-third the cost of the stadium.....which he will own fully.

A good deal if you can grease the right palms to get it.

And secondly, Detroit is one of the best places to build - from a business perspective - a hockey stadium/franchise. It's one of the few franchises in the NHL that are actually profitable, due in large part to the city's appetite for hockey. And the city was/has been very reasonable with its lease agreement with the Red Wings.

Then we are once again in agreement - it's a good business decision to build the stadium in Detroit, so Mr. Ilitch shouldn't need a total of $444 million of taxpayer money (both Detroit money and State of Michigan money) to do what's going to make him a profit anyway.

Isn't that how the marketplace is supposed to work, without all that pesky government interference? But I guess it's different when some gazillionaire has his hand out for some public money, to when retired public workers want the pensions they were promised when they signed up. Truly another mystery of the "pro-business" mind....

But the point there was that there are other cities eager to bring a major sports team to their door that are willing to pay a huge sum of money for the privilege. The recently-completed Lucas Oil Stadium cost $720 million - only $100 million of that cost coming from the Indianapolis Colts. Marlins Park was just finished last year and had 80% of its $634 million cost funded by Miami-Dade county (And it has obstructed seating. How do you build a ballpark in the 21st century and still end up with obstructed seats?!)

If another city went up to Ilitch and (by way of using public funds to finance a new arena) essentially offered him $100 million up front to move his team to their city, things might get interesting. But both parties acted before the issue of the Red Wings skipping town ever arose.

So what you're saying is that everyone indulges in this form of corruption and theft of public money - and make no mistake, that's exactly what it is - so Detroit should get in on the action, too.

If you Americans had applied that standard to Iraq's wheat contracts, Australian farmers would still be getting $500m-plus per year in wheat sales - after all, everyone uses bribery in the Middle East, so Australians should be commended for being smart enough to offer the biggest bribes to get ahead, right?

Alas, the US (well, the transitional administration of Iraq under Paul Bremer, which amounts to the same thing)didn't see that way, stripped the contract from Australian farmers - an allied nation! - and handed it over, no-bid (naturally) to Halliburton KBR.

I guess Americans think that ethics are just dandy....when they're applied to the detriment of non-Americans.

[New Chalcedon]

Did you just call black people irresponsible?

Yes, he did. Why? Beats me, but racism probably comes into the explanation somewhere.

[The Texan Confederation]

So, when does the bank start auctioning off property? I shall bid one dollar on The Renaissance Center!

[Vettrera]

Did you just call black people irresponsible?

Yes, he did. Why? Beats me, but racism probably comes into the explanation somewhere.

Sounds a lot like Juror 10 from 12 Angry Men.