Your views on Scottish Indepdence

[Conscentia]

Scotland is currently a part of the UK. There are many of us accepting a government we didn't vote for.....

"I t'was born and raised in these hills o'er yonder. I dunnae accept this government tae rule me!"
"Then move somewhere else."

Interesting to see an "anarchist" support this reasoning. Esp. since you are an an-cap.

[Fartsniffage]

I don't think it would win in the slightest. I would prefer Scotland to remain a part of the Union.

Just that it would be fairer from a democratic point of view.

Maybe it would be even fairer if the EU had a referendum as well? What about a UN referendum as well...

The cost of the referendum will be high anyway. And there is no point making it larger in pursuit of the intangible concept of democratic fairness.

What do either of those have to do with the internal structure of a nation? The British people are those who will be affected by this decision, they should all get a say.

[Prizea]

I know that's the majority, but I am trying to imply it's not really democratic to force 49% of the nation to accept the terms of 51%'s.

Just as it's undemocractic for the entire of Scotland to be forced to accept the terms of a fraction of England?

I can guarantee that it isn't all of Scotland: some voted conservative. I think rhetoric got in the way of common sense there.

[Tagmatium]

Maybe it would be even fairer if the EU had a referendum as well? What about a UN referendum as well...

The cost of the referendum will be high anyway. And there is no point making it larger in pursuit of the intangible concept of democratic fairness.

What do either of those have to do with the internal structure of a nation? The British people are those who will be affected by this decision, they should all get a say.

I do feel the same as Fartsniffage.

Albeit I'd have absolutely no idea how I would vote if I were given a chance to vote on Scottish independence.

[Prizea]

Maybe it would be even fairer if the EU had a referendum as well? What about a UN referendum as well...

The cost of the referendum will be high anyway. And there is no point making it larger in pursuit of the intangible concept of democratic fairness.

What do either of those have to do with the internal structure of a nation? The British people are those who will be affected by this decision, they should all get a say.

The Japanese people will be affected by this decision: does that mean they should get a say?

[Tagmatium]

What do either of those have to do with the internal structure of a nation? The British people are those who will be affected by this decision, they should all get a say.

The Japanese people will be affected by this decision: does that mean they should get a say?

Strawman - the Japanese don't live in the United Kingdom.

[Toe-Cheeseland]

What do either of those have to do with the internal structure of a nation? The British people are those who will be affected by this decision, they should all get a say.

The Japanese people will be affected by this decision: does that mean they should get a say?

The general election would probably affect them too; and pretty much most other countries on earth - therefore we should either give every sapient earthling the vote in the British general election or no one gets to vote whatsoever.

[Uieurnthlaal]

Tyranny of the Majority.

Otherwise known as democracy.

No. A tyranny of the majority is where a majority group uses it's power in elections to tyrannize and oppress minority groups. A democracy includes provisions design to protect the rights of the minority, such as bills of rights.

[Conscentia]

Just as it's undemocractic for the entire of Scotland to be forced to accept the terms of a fraction of England?

Oh please. That argument is just a criticism of democracy as a whole. If that's truly what you think, why should nations exist at all? After all, that's just other people's will being forced on others, regardless of how democratic said nation is.

[Agorya]

"I t'was born and raised in these hills o'er yonder. I dunnae accept this government tae rule me!"
"Then move somewhere else."

Interesting to see an "anarchist" support this reasoning. Esp. An an-cap.

#anarchywithoutlabels

I am just picturing a half hypothetical slightly satirical scenario. Of course the gov. is the same everywhere, to the dismay of eldery Scottish farmers. And woe to the farmer, for he never gets his dreams of living in peace(es).

[Prizea]

The Japanese people will be affected by this decision: does that mean they should get a say?

Strawman - the Japanese don't live in the United Kingdom.

But they will be affected by the decision, even if they live on another continent. So should they get a say as well- since that is what has been given as a reason for the British people getting a say.

[Uieurnthlaal]

The Japanese people will be affected by this decision: does that mean they should get a say?

Strawman - the Japanese don't live in the United Kingdom.

No, that is not a strawman. That is a reductio ad absurdum argument, which is not a logical fallacy. The Japanese are also affected by decisions made in the UK, just as the British are, even if to a lesser extent.

[Toe-Cheeseland]

The Japanese people will be affected by this decision: does that mean they should get a say?

The general election would probably affect them too; and pretty much most other countries on earth - therefore we should either give every sapient earthling the vote in the British general election or no one gets to vote whatsoever.

Strawman - the Japanese don't live in the United Kingdom.

But they will be affected by the decision, even if they live on another continent. So should they get a say as well- since that is what has been given as a reason for the British people getting a say.

*cough* *cough*

[Fartsniffage]

What do either of those have to do with the internal structure of a nation? The British people are those who will be affected by this decision, they should all get a say.

The Japanese people will be affected by this decision: does that mean they should get a say?

It's a question of proximity I guess. The Scots are the most affected so they get the straight up stay or leave vote. The rest of Britain is less affected so can't force them to stay but can say leave. Everyone else is much less affected so get to have their say through making their opinion known and trying to influence the voters before the vote, assuming anyone outside the UK cares enough to bother to do so.

[Prizea]

The Japanese people will be affected by this decision: does that mean they should get a say?

The general election would probably affect them too; and pretty much most other countries on earth - therefore we should either give every sapient earthling the vote in the British general election or no one gets to vote whatsoever.

I can understand the Scottish getting the vote, but once the franchise is extended it just becomes a monumental waste of time and money. Money that could go into healthcare and education.

[Toe-Cheeseland]

The general election would probably affect them too; and pretty much most other countries on earth - therefore we should either give every sapient earthling the vote in the British general election or no one gets to vote whatsoever.

I can understand the Scottish getting the vote, but once the franchise is extended it just becomes a monumental waste of time and money. Money that could go into healthcare and education.

Fair enough - but I think Fartsniffage struck a compromise

The Japanese people will be affected by this decision: does that mean they should get a say?

It's a question of proximity I guess. The Scots are the most affected so they get the straight up stay or leave vote. The rest of Britain is less affected so can't force them to stay but can say leave. Everyone else is much less affected so get to have their say through making their opinion known and trying to influence the voters before the vote, assuming anyone outside the UK cares enough to bother to do so.

[Tagmatium]

Strawman - the Japanese don't live in the United Kingdom.

But they will be affected by the decision, even if they live on another continent. So should they get a say as well- since that is what has been given as a reason for the British people getting a say.

I suspect you know full well that you're putting across a facetious point, but I shall address it in my own way away.

The Japanese do not live within the United Kingdom. They - bar a small minority, I'd imagine - do not have Scottish relatives or could claim to be half-Scottish, etc. They would not be personally affected by the independence of a nation that some of them could rightly claim to be their home. Therefore, your argument is basically ridiculous.

There are many I know how gladly claim to be half-Scottish who will not be eligible to vote in the upcoming election. Reasonably, as a citizen of the United Kingdom, I can claim to be affected by the vote. It might not be unfair to claim that, as a person living in one of the member-nations of the UK, that I ought to be included within the process that dictates the future of the UK, as any referendum upon the membership of nations undoubtedly would.

Strawman - the Japanese don't live in the United Kingdom.

No, that is not a strawman. That is a reductio ad absurdum argument, which is not a logical fallacy. The Japanese are also affected by decisions made in the UK, just as the British are, even if to a lesser extent.

Ah, I apologise for incorrect usage, then.

I forget how precisely these things work, which I why I tend to not bandy those phrases around.

Seems I shouldn't have bothered again.

[The Grey Wolf]

Independence. Then it should merge with Ireland and become the Thousand Year Gaelic Empire.

[Prizea]

The Japanese people will be affected by this decision: does that mean they should get a say?

It's a question of proximity I guess. The Scots are the most affected so they get the straight up stay or leave vote. The rest of Britain is less affected so can't force them to stay but can say leave. Everyone else is much less affected so get to have their say through making their opinion known and trying to influence the voters before the vote, assuming anyone outside the UK cares enough to bother to do so.

The problem with a vote to kick them out is that it would inflame nationalistic fervours even further.

Holding a referendum on kicking Scotland out is like grabbing a big stick and beating yourself over the head with it while screaming obscenities at your neighbour. And then afterwards going round to ask if you can borrow the lawnmower.

[Scots Rebels]

The latest announcement from better together.

Also known as "Project Fear"

[Fartsniffage]

It's a question of proximity I guess. The Scots are the most affected so they get the straight up stay or leave vote. The rest of Britain is less affected so can't force them to stay but can say leave. Everyone else is much less affected so get to have their say through making their opinion known and trying to influence the voters before the vote, assuming anyone outside the UK cares enough to bother to do so.

The problem with a vote to kick them out is that it would inflame nationalistic fervours even further.

Holding a referendum on kicking Scotland out is like grabbing a big stick and beating yourself over the head with it while screaming obscenities at your neighbour. And then afterwards going round to ask if you can borrow the lawnmower.

And?

This whole thing is about nationalism. Let's get it all out in the open and see where everyone stands.

[Prizea]

But they will be affected by the decision, even if they live on another continent. So should they get a say as well- since that is what has been given as a reason for the British people getting a say.

I suspect you know full well that you're putting across a facetious point, but I shall address it in my own way away.

The Japanese do not live within the United Kingdom. They - bar a small minority, I'd imagine - do not have Scottish relatives or could claim to be half-Scottish, etc. They would not be personally affected by the independence of a nation that some of them could rightly claim to be their home. Therefore, your argument is basically ridiculous.

There are many I know how gladly claim to be half-Scottish who will not be eligible to vote in the upcoming election. Reasonably, as a citizen of the United Kingdom, I can claim to be affected by the vote. It might not be unfair to claim that, as a person living in one of the member-nations of the UK, that I ought to be included within the process that dictates the future of the UK, as any referendum upon the membership of nations undoubtedly would.

No, that is not a strawman. That is a reductio ad absurdum argument, which is not a logical fallacy. The Japanese are also affected by decisions made in the UK, just as the British are, even if to a lesser extent.

Ah, I apologise for incorrect usage, then.

I forget how precisely these things work, which I why I tend to not bandy those phrases around.

Seems I shouldn't have bothered again.

Its naive to think that the sudden appearance of a new developed nation wouldn't affect world markets and trade, and by extension the Japanese people. Why are you a more important observer than someone from Japan (or any other country, it was just the first one to pop into my head).

And you ignored my point earlier about an EU vote. Surely they have the same right to a vote as us, belonging to member states that will be affected by the changes in the EU brought about by a Scottish referendum.

[Blassland]

I can see why it is a big deal in the UK, it is a large part of the country and contributes heavily to their economy. That being said I could not care less if Scotland was independent or not, if the people are happy it is fine to me. Honestly it would be weir to see Scotland and maybe someday Wales and Northern Ireland independent (not sure if N. Ireland would join Ireland).

[Priory Academy USSR]

I suspect you know full well that you're putting across a facetious point, but I shall address it in my own way away.

The Japanese do not live within the United Kingdom. They - bar a small minority, I'd imagine - do not have Scottish relatives or could claim to be half-Scottish, etc. They would not be personally affected by the independence of a nation that some of them could rightly claim to be their home. Therefore, your argument is basically ridiculous.

There are many I know how gladly claim to be half-Scottish who will not be eligible to vote in the upcoming election. Reasonably, as a citizen of the United Kingdom, I can claim to be affected by the vote. It might not be unfair to claim that, as a person living in one of the member-nations of the UK, that I ought to be included within the process that dictates the future of the UK, as any referendum upon the membership of nations undoubtedly would.

Ah, I apologise for incorrect usage, then.

I forget how precisely these things work, which I why I tend to not bandy those phrases around.

Seems I shouldn't have bothered again.

Its naive to think that the sudden appearance of a new developed nation wouldn't affect world markets and trade, and by extension the Japanese people. Why are you a more important observer than someone from Japan (or any other country, it was just the first one to pop into my head).

Because we're not observers. We're British citizens, as are Scottish people. And until independence is formally given, Scottish people will be British citizens too.

[Conscentia]

The latest announcement from better together.

(Image)

Also known as "Project Fear"

If this is a puppet, I strongly advise the maker to stop with politically motivated puppet spam.