Sexism in video games.

[Ostroeuropa]

Would you consider europa universalis to glorify sexism?
There are plenty of games that don't glorify sexism.
In fact, i don't actually play any that do, in my opinion.

Being that there are not real "characters" in that game, it being an abstract strategy game, and that do its historical nature female personas are going to be mostly absent anyway, bringing it up as a non-sexist game is only slightly less silly than using Tetris as an example.

I don't know what games you play. If they're all strategy though, it's going to be hard to find sexist examples in the middle of all male forces.

So your problem isn't sexist games at all.
It's sexist character depictions.
Precisely what I was talking about earlier. This isn't a problem with games. It's a problem with White Heterosexual Males being the default character model.
However, since games are now moving toward character customizability, this is a problem that will be fixed in games long before it's fixed in books and tv.
So why are we bothering talking about it, when we can focus on books and tv?

[The Parkus Empire]

Being that there are not real "characters" in that game, it being an abstract strategy game, and that do its historical nature female personas are going to be mostly absent anyway, bringing it up as a non-sexist game is only slightly less silly than using Tetris as an example.

I don't know what games you play. If they're all strategy though, it's going to be hard to find sexist examples in the middle of all male forces.

So your problem isn't sexist games at all.
It's sexist character depictions.
Precisely what I was talking about earlier. This isn't a problem with games. It's a problem with White Heterosexual Males being the default character model.
However, since games are now moving toward character customizability, this is a problem that will be fixed in games long before it's fixed in books and tv.
So why are we bothering talking about it, when we can focus on books and tv?

Well sexist games are an issue too, but you're talking about depicting a sexist era, then it would be silly to have accurate representation of women as soldiers and rulers.

And the White Heterosexual Male isn't just the problem with the character default: it's all the characters, whether playable or not, that actually are women. Male characters, while often portrayed as what one could consider sexy, are not defined by their fuckability. They aren't wearing assless chap armor, you see? They don't have fucking absurdly huge dicks bulging in their pants. Their proportions are not nigh humanly impossible

[Galloism]

So your problem isn't sexist games at all.
It's sexist character depictions.
Precisely what I was talking about earlier. This isn't a problem with games. It's a problem with White Heterosexual Males being the default character model.
However, since games are now moving toward character customizability, this is a problem that will be fixed in games long before it's fixed in books and tv.
So why are we bothering talking about it, when we can focus on books and tv?

Well sexist games are an issue too, but you're talking about depicting a sexist era, then it would be silly to have accurate representation of women as soldiers and rulers.

And the White Heterosexual Male isn't just the problem with the character default: it's all the characters, whether playable or not, that actually are women. Male characters, while often portrayed as what one could consider sexy, are not defined by their fuckability. They aren't wearing assless chap armor, you see? They don't have fucking absurdly huge dicks bulging in their pants. Their proportions are not nigh humanly impossible

First he describes me to a T, then claims that my proportions are "nigh humanly impossible".

[Ostroeuropa]

So your problem isn't sexist games at all.
It's sexist character depictions.
Precisely what I was talking about earlier. This isn't a problem with games. It's a problem with White Heterosexual Males being the default character model.
However, since games are now moving toward character customizability, this is a problem that will be fixed in games long before it's fixed in books and tv.
So why are we bothering talking about it, when we can focus on books and tv?

Well sexist games are an issue too, but you're talking about depicting a sexist era, then it would be silly to have accurate representation of women as soldiers and rulers.

And the White Heterosexual Male isn't just the problem with the character default: it's all the characters, whether playable or not, that actually are women. Male characters, while often portrayed as what one could consider sexy, are not defined by their fuckability. They aren't wearing assless chap armor, you see? They don't have fucking absurdly huge dicks bulging in their pants. Their proportions are not nigh humanly impossible

Not all males no. Some of those males do exist.
Not all females are like that either. Because, and heres the kicker, if the character doesn't have any defined personality then ofcourse you're going to base your impression of them on how they look.
If the female characters have personality and characterization, then they AREN'T defined by their fuckability.
So it REALLY IS the Heterosexual Male as a default character that is the problem.

[Choronzon]

Guys, Alaje is a troll.

Seriously, he's trolling. He is a troll. Stop feeding him.

How many times do you need to repeat the same thing over and over before you realize that the person you're talking to isn't listening and isn't actually interested in discussion? Seriously, for the past several dozen or so pages its been people providing reasons, arguments, and evidence and Alaje going "NU-UH!"

Thats a fucking troll.

[Ifreann]

Guys, Alaje is a troll.

Seriously, he's trolling. He is a troll. Stop feeding him.

How many times do you need to repeat the same thing over and over before you realize that the person you're talking to isn't listening and isn't actually interested in discussion? Seriously, for the past several dozen or so pages its been people providing reasons, arguments, and evidence and Alaje going "NU-UH!"

Thats a fucking troll.

How can he be a troll if he's never menaced some hobbits in Moria? Checkmate, feminists.

[Zweite Alaje]

Guys, Alaje is a troll.

Seriously, he's trolling. He is a troll. Stop feeding him.

How many times do you need to repeat the same thing over and over before you realize that the person you're talking to isn't listening and isn't actually interested in discussion? Seriously, for the past several dozen or so pages its been people providing reasons, arguments, and evidence and Alaje going "NU-UH!"

Thats a fucking troll.

I love you to Choro, but I'm not a troll.

Trolls don't have consistent opinions, and my opinion on this has been(even in threads like this in the past) is that it isn't important, it a non-issue, people need to chill.

And what "evidence" links to youtube vids and tropes?

[Kinnickinee]

So your problem isn't sexist games at all.
It's sexist character depictions.
Precisely what I was talking about earlier. This isn't a problem with games. It's a problem with White Heterosexual Males being the default character model.
However, since games are now moving toward character customizability, this is a problem that will be fixed in games long before it's fixed in books and tv.
So why are we bothering talking about it, when we can focus on books and tv?

Well sexist games are an issue too, but you're talking about depicting a sexist era, then it would be silly to have accurate representation of women as soldiers and rulers.

And the White Heterosexual Male isn't just the problem with the character default: it's all the characters, whether playable or not, that actually are women. Male characters, while often portrayed as what one could consider sexy, are not defined by their fuckability. They aren't wearing assless chap armor, you see? They don't have fucking absurdly huge dicks bulging in their pants. Their proportions are not nigh humanly impossible

Stop talking in absolute terms. Not all games do this. Hell, I'm currently making a game where the female protagonist only has 26 pixels of skin showing. Games are a varied media. Just play the games that aren't sexist.

[Zweite Alaje]

Well sexist games are an issue too, but you're talking about depicting a sexist era, then it would be silly to have accurate representation of women as soldiers and rulers.

And the White Heterosexual Male isn't just the problem with the character default: it's all the characters, whether playable or not, that actually are women. Male characters, while often portrayed as what one could consider sexy, are not defined by their fuckability. They aren't wearing assless chap armor, you see? They don't have fucking absurdly huge dicks bulging in their pants. Their proportions are not nigh humanly impossible

Stop talking in absolute terms. Not all games do this. Hell, I'm currently making a game where the female protagonist only has 26 pixels of skin showing. Games are a varied media. Just play the games that aren't sexist.

B-but, they're all sexist!!!!

[Falcania]

Well sexist games are an issue too, but you're talking about depicting a sexist era, then it would be silly to have accurate representation of women as soldiers and rulers.

And the White Heterosexual Male isn't just the problem with the character default: it's all the characters, whether playable or not, that actually are women. Male characters, while often portrayed as what one could consider sexy, are not defined by their fuckability. They aren't wearing assless chap armor, you see? They don't have fucking absurdly huge dicks bulging in their pants. Their proportions are not nigh humanly impossible

Stop talking in absolute terms. Not all games do this. Hell, I'm currently making a game where the female protagonist only has 26 pixels of skin showing. Games are a varied media. Just play the games that aren't sexist.

I do congratulate you for the stance you seem to want to imply you're taking against sexism in video games. However, the fact that not all games embody sexist ideals does not excuse the fact that many still do - I would wager, in fact, the vast majority of them do.

There is an underlying problem that cannot be solved by ignoring those parts of the problem that are currently on show.

[Ostroeuropa]

Stop talking in absolute terms. Not all games do this. Hell, I'm currently making a game where the female protagonist only has 26 pixels of skin showing. Games are a varied media. Just play the games that aren't sexist.

I do congratulate you for the stance you seem to want to imply you're taking against sexism in video games. However, the fact that not all games embody sexist ideals does not excuse the fact that many still do - I would wager, in fact, the vast majority of them do.

There is an underlying problem that cannot be solved by ignoring those parts of the problem that are currently on show.

Where do you think this problem comes from.

[Falcania]

I do congratulate you for the stance you seem to want to imply you're taking against sexism in video games. However, the fact that not all games embody sexist ideals does not excuse the fact that many still do - I would wager, in fact, the vast majority of them do.

There is an underlying problem that cannot be solved by ignoring those parts of the problem that are currently on show.

Where do you think this problem comes from.

I understand it's a controversial viewpoint around here (because of reasons) but I believe the underlying problem is the way that our culture teaches us to imprint concepts of masculinity and femininity onto traits deemed desirable or undesirable for the fulfilment of certain roles in society.

[Ostroeuropa]

Where do you think this problem comes from.

I understand it's a controversial viewpoint around here (because of reasons) but I believe the underlying problem is the way that our culture teaches us to imprint concepts of masculinity and femininity onto traits deemed desirable or undesirable for the fulfilment of certain roles in society.

I agree. The notion of masculinity and femininity need to be abolished.

[Falcania]

I understand it's a controversial viewpoint around here (because of reasons) but I believe the underlying problem is the way that our culture teaches us to imprint concepts of masculinity and femininity onto traits deemed desirable or undesirable for the fulfilment of certain roles in society.

I agree. The notion of masculinity and femininity need to be abolished.

Now the other problem we have is that the existence of these sexist games does feed back into the culture, and reinforces these concepts.

[Ostroeuropa]

I agree. The notion of masculinity and femininity need to be abolished.

Now the other problem we have is that the existence of these sexist games does feed back into the culture, and reinforces these concepts.

Extra Credits did a good segment on this, Propoganda Games.

They are powerless if you are aware of the message and can choose to ignore it or confront it.
For that reason, if we get at kids in school during civics class and dismantle gender stereotyping there, it'll help immensely.
Changing the industry wont work.
The consumers need to change.
We can't expect the industry not to pander to the consumers.

[Falcania]

Now the other problem we have is that the existence of these sexist games does feed back into the culture, and reinforces these concepts.

Extra Credits did a good segment on this, Propoganda Games.

They are powerless if you are aware of the message and can choose to ignore it or confront it.
For that reason, if we get at kids in school during civics class and dismantle gender stereotyping there, it'll help immensely.

As long as a lot of people play these games, they will be part of the culture.

And when the majority of modern, best-selling, so-called AAA games feature protagonists who are white and male, and gameplay largely focused on embodying masculine ideals like violent domination, the people who play these games absorb this culture, and the harmful notions are reinforced.

I agree that education is one great step that can be made towards to hindering the cultural absorption of these notions, but it is not the only method that will work - changing culture is rarely so easy.

And to respond to your edit - it bears saying that - especially in the video games industry, there is a very sizeable intersection between "consumer" and "producer". That is to say, more and more gamers are becoming game-makers, and most game-makers were or are gamers. They are not discrete social groups educated separately - You can apply the change more broadly than you imply.

[Shaggai]

And what "evidence" links to youtube vids and tropes?

The kind that's talking about tropes? TVTropes is a good source for examples of tropes. It may not be useful for anything else, other than wasting time, but it's useful for this.

[Northern Dominus]

Anyone else noticing the ad here that says "male gamers only"? With a picture of a sexually objectified woman of course.

Anyway, me, I'm not much of a gamer. Doesn't interest me. But you'd have to be blind not to notice that video games tend toward the sexist side. I've also frequently heard tell that gamer culture is highly misogynistic, from more than a couple of women gamers.

So. Would anyone like to share their opinions or thoughts on this?

Fantastical escapist entertainment skewed towards heterosexual teenage boys, news at 11.

This exact same argument can be made when the term "video games" is replaced with "comic books" or "premium primetime television shows" or "insert mass media entertainment method" here. This is because the entertainment industry relies on outmoded and misleading information-gathering techniques such as focus groups, who really never give accurate information anyway. Then there's the problem of game development companies being operated by middle age white guys who weren't gamers but marketing execs, hence they're not connected with gamers in the first place anyway.

However, that's not the big problem here. No, the big problem is you OP. See, you focused on the shallow veneer of "sexism" in video games rather than actually look at how far female characters have come so far. Compare Laura Croft of the 90's to GLADoS. One is all digital curves and one-liners, and the other one morphs from a tyrannical malevolent computer program to an almost sympathetic amalgamation of machine logic and human emotion.

I think that's some significant progress, don't you?

[Grand Britannia]

Stop talking in absolute terms. Not all games do this. Hell, I'm currently making a game where the female protagonist only has 26 pixels of skin showing. Games are a varied media. Just play the games that aren't sexist.

I would wager, in fact, the vast majority of them do.

Ha ha, no.

[Falcania]

I would wager, in fact, the vast majority of them do.

Ha ha, no.

Ha ha, please explain the basis for your rebuttal?

[Grand Britannia]

Ha ha, no.

Ha ha, please explain the basis for your rebuttal?

I should be asking you where are you basing your claim beyond a few internet MMOs.

[Falcania]

Ha ha, please explain the basis for your rebuttal?

I should be asking you where are you basing your claim beyond a few internet MMOs.

Am I taking it that you failed to see my post on gender roles in video games?

[Grand Britannia]

I should be asking you where are you basing your claim beyond a few internet MMOs.

Am I taking it that you failed to see my post on gender roles in video games?

No, I don't auto record everything on every thread I visit.

[Falcania]

Am I taking it that you failed to see my post on gender roles in video games?

No, I don't auto record everything on every thread I visit.

This may prove disadvantageous if you want to be taken seriously.

[Grand Britannia]

No, I don't auto record everything on every thread I visit.

This may prove disadvantageous if you want to be taken seriously.

What games have gender roles?