Sexism in video games.

[Edlichbury]

No, you're allowed to tell someone you're ignoring them before you do it. You're not allowed to keep reminding them that you've ignored them or harass them directly with this, but you're allowed to be like "okay, we're not speaking anymore, buh bye".

But that's the point. We've reached the point where "I'm not speaking to you" is considered a fucking INSULT.

How fucking childish.

"I'm not speaking to you" is an insult.
"Everyone like you is scum and not human" is not.

Welcome to NSG.

[Verbal Pararhea]

Or, maybe, men play more games because game companies cater to them? :V

Establishing cause and effect is damn near impossible at the sociological level, so it's hard to say if either one is true.

[Asuiop]

Frankly, this is why I've been saying that most of the worthwhile posters here should just fucking make one.

That requires effort. *whine*

If I'm unemployed after grad school and sitting around in Japan with little to do, I can look into something because that could be good, but I'm sort of hoping not to be in that situation (and I also don't know how much work is actually involved in that kinda thing).

Well, as long as you get some decent mods its not too much work

[Dakini]

I did. I just don't bottom post. I interleave.

I love that there is a wikipedia entry on this and I am going to throw it at people until they interleave more.

I think there's a wiki on almost everything. If you can think of something that wiki doesn't have, you should make the page.

Your style is classier though, with your hard rules and all.

[Asuiop]

I love that there is a wikipedia entry on this and I am going to throw it at people until they interleave more.

I think there's a wiki on almost everything. If you can think of something that wiki doesn't have, you should make the page.

Your style is classier though, with your hard rules and all.

There's a wikepedia page about wikepedia.

[Olthar]

It is to me! D':

It's all in your head/pants, and therefore isn't real.

You meanie mean-head! D':

[Dakini]

No, you're allowed to tell someone you're ignoring them before you do it. You're not allowed to keep reminding them that you've ignored them or harass them directly with this, but you're allowed to be like "okay, we're not speaking anymore, buh bye".

But that's the point. We've reached the point where "I'm not speaking to you" is considered a fucking INSULT.

How fucking childish.

I haven't had many issues of the people I'm ignoring noticeably replying to me (maybe they do and just aren't quoted), but I'd probably remind someone that I'm not speaking to them if they did. I'm not sure that this would be a problem. I thought it was mostly that sometimes people were doing it without being quoted and just continuing on.

[New Octopucta]

Then all the complexity that I thought was there really is there. Are there more common and less common triggers? I would imagine so, just as there are more common and less common fears.

I don't know. You'd have to ask someone with more knowledge, and preferably not here. You could start a new thread, though.

Or, maybe, men play more games because game companies cater to them? :V

Can we stop saying "men play more games than women" as if there's some massive disparity between the number of female gamers and the number of male gamers? It's a difference of 16 percentage points the last time a measure was taken.

[Dakini]

That requires effort. *whine*

If I'm unemployed after grad school and sitting around in Japan with little to do, I can look into something because that could be good, but I'm sort of hoping not to be in that situation (and I also don't know how much work is actually involved in that kinda thing).

Well, as long as you get some decent mods its not too much work

I feel like it depends on the traffic and how awesome one wants to make it.

[Ifreann]

I love that there is a wikipedia entry on this and I am going to throw it at people until they interleave more.

I think there's a wiki on almost everything. If you can think of something that wiki doesn't have, you should make the page.

Your style is classier though, with your hard rules and all.

I'm pretty sure I made a thread, at some point since we moved to this forum, about how obviously the best way to post is to interleave(though I didn't know to call it that), multi-quote using the topic review and multiple tabs, and use the hr tag to split up quotes from different people. I don't recall it going anywhere.

---

It's all in your head/pants, and therefore isn't real.

You meanie mean-head! D':

Yes. Yes I am.

[Susurruses]

Then all the complexity that I thought was there really is there. Are there more common and less common triggers? I would imagine so, just as there are more common and less common fears.

I don't know. You'd have to ask someone with more knowledge, and preferably not here. You could start a new thread, though.

Or, maybe, men play more games because game companies cater to them? :V

Can we stop saying "men play more games than women" as if there's some massive disparity between the number of female gamers and the number of male gamers? It's a difference of 16 percentage points the last time a measure was taken.

Last I checked, women are 45% of gamers & 46% of game purchasers.
http://www.theesa.com/facts/pdfs/ESA_EF_2012.pdf
The ridiculous notion that males make up the primary demographic needs to be corrected.
(Additionally, the idea that the market is primary adolescent males is silly because women make up a larger proportion of gamers than said demographic too)

[Olthar]

I don't know. You'd have to ask someone with more knowledge, and preferably not here. You could start a new thread, though.


Can we stop saying "men play more games than women" as if there's some massive disparity between the number of female gamers and the number of male gamers? It's a difference of 16 percentage points the last time a measure was taken.

Last I checked, women are 45% of gamers & 46% of game purchasers.
http://www.theesa.com/facts/pdfs/ESA_EF_2012.pdf
The ridiculous notion that males make up the primary demographic needs to be corrected.
(Additionally, the idea that the market is primary adolescent males is silly because women make up a larger proportion of gamers than said demographic too)

Welp, that proves it then. Sexism is all a lie, and there are absolutely no societal problems to worry about. Good work everyone. Let's celebrate our success with cake and ice cream.

[New Octopucta]

Last I checked, women are 45% of gamers & 46% of game purchasers.
http://www.theesa.com/facts/pdfs/ESA_EF_2012.pdf
The ridiculous notion that males make up the primary demographic needs to be corrected.
(Additionally, the idea that the market is primary adolescent males is silly because women make up a larger proportion of gamers than said demographic too)

Even better. I've seen the idea refuted nearly every page in this thread, but on the next page there's always someone else who wants to parrot it.

Welp, that proves it then. Sexism is all a lie, and there are absolutely no societal problems to worry about. Good work everyone. Let's celebrate our success with cake and ice cream.

Women don't have to be a minority be the dictionary definition in order for there to be sexism present in the gaming industry.

[Aurora Novus]

What games? I've been playing video games since the age of four, and I have yet to see a single one that is devoid of sexism.

Then you're apparently not been looking very hard, or do not have as much experience in the realm of videogames as you claim to have.

"Go play different games" only works when those "different games" actually exist.

To name just a few game that have strong female characters.

The Portal Series
The Elder Scrolls Series
The Fallout Series
Donkey Kong Country 2, 3, (and the upcoming game Tropical Freeze), along with their Land counterparts
Any Mario RPG
The Disgaea Series (although this runs heavy with sex appeal too, but there are plenty of "positive female role models")
Most MMOs where there is decent character customization
The Tomb Raider series
Perfect Dark

I could go on. You really have to be blind if you think there are no games with strong female characters.

"Make your own games?" What sort of fantasy world are you living in? Triple A, mainstream games require millions in funding and thousands of hours to make. The average person can't do that.

In other words, Capitalism sucks. Yeah, I get that. Hence my flag.

The fact that Capitalism is a shitty economic system, that prevents people from pursuing their dreams, doesn't justify your reasoning however.

"Don't like sexist oppression? Just deal with it!"
Fuck that. Fuck that so hard. No.

I wouldn't call it sexist oppression. Seriously, who is oppressed by the existence of bits of coding made to look like "beautiful" women? That's oppression? Jesus...

Like I said, Capitalism sucks. But that is an option.

And again, what sort of fantasy world are you living in? Mainstream game designers don't give half a shit what the public wants.

Uh, really? What fantasy world are you living in? Developers respond to the desires of the public all the time, especially when it comes to sequels.

I'm really doubting your claim that you're a gamer. If you are, you don't pay much attention to the broader gaming culture.

That's why they keep pumping out the same shooter crap over and over.

Um, the reason they keep pumping that garbage out, is because of the idiots who want it. This might come as a surprise, and disappointment to you, but there are people who actually want and enjoy those games. It's sad, and something that the gaming community has bitched about for years.

Just look at Microsoft's reveal of the Xbox One. Does it look like they have any idea what gamers want?

Microsoft is notorious for it's greed when it comes to anything it makes.

No. No they don't. Sending a letter to a game designer isn't going to do anything because the real world isn't an Saturday morning cartoon.

I highly disagree. Hell, I've seen plenty of times where the desires of a gaming community were responded to by developers. The upcoming DKC game is a perfect example of Retro responding to desires put forth by it's fans from the time they released Returns.

Yes you are. You literally just did in this very post.

Quote me. Show me the exact line where I claimed video games were a male thing, and women shouldn't be allowed to play them.

You're acting as if sexism isn't a problem and/or doesn't exist. That's almost the definition of misogyny.

First of all, misogyny isn't the lack of belief in sexism. I love how this term gets tossed around all the time, yet hardly anyone seems to understand what it means. I've completely lost any respect for the term.

Further more, no, I'm not pretending sexism doesn't exist. I've given specific arguments for why sexualized female game characters isn't sexism, and is not a moral evil.

Care to show the least bit of intellectual honesty dear?

[Orham]

Only if the attitude became so prevalent that they could no longer sell games that feminists dislike. As long as there is still a large market for such games, the fact that there is another market for a different type of game will make little difference in the behavior of already established companies. You would have to get an enormous number of people on board. Really, the faster way to accomplish change would be to make and sell your own feminist-friendly games. If they are good and popular, you will get rich and also make a significant first step toward solving your issue.

But one is left to wonder which direction the arrow ought to be pointing:

Consumer Interest in Non-Sexist Games ---------> Production and Sale of Non-Sexist Games
Consumer Interest in Non-Sexist Games <-------- Production and Sale of Non-Sexist Games

See, if the quality of non-sexist games is absolutely phenomenal but there's no consumer interest in them, then new market entrants won't have anyone to buy their products. That's why marketing strives to steer consumers' interests and attitudes toward the products. Consumer groups aimed at promoting attitudes such as I have described would supplement those new entrants' marketing efforts, and as a consequence their efforts are non-negligible.

[Creative Vikings]

Got my head cut off by an angry female Nord the other day.

The bad loser in me says that if anything, video games are a platform to broadcast hatred against males.
Oh, and that THEY ARE FREAKIN' VIDEO GAMES.

[Susurruses]

Last I checked, women are 45% of gamers & 46% of game purchasers.
http://www.theesa.com/facts/pdfs/ESA_EF_2012.pdf
The ridiculous notion that males make up the primary demographic needs to be corrected.
(Additionally, the idea that the market is primary adolescent males is silly because women make up a larger proportion of gamers than said demographic too)

Welp, that proves it then. Sexism is all a lie, and there are absolutely no societal problems to worry about. Good work everyone. Let's celebrate our success with cake and ice cream.

... how are you deriving sexism not being an issue from the demographics being approximately equal?
The statistics on players don't imply an equivalent in products.
Misogyny is definitely still an issue, with gaming culture being almost a distilled version of the issues facing society as a whole.

[New Octopucta]

Got my head cut off by an angry female Nord the other day.

The bad loser in me says that if anything, video games are a platform to broadcast hatred against males.
Oh, and that THEY ARE FREAKIN' VIDEO GAMES.

If there were more important female characters in video games, then this wouldn't be an issue.

[The Grey Wolf]

What games? I've been playing video games since the age of four, and I have yet to see a single one that is devoid of sexism.

Then you're apparently not been looking very hard, or do not have as much experience in the realm of videogames as you claim to have.

"Go play different games" only works when those "different games" actually exist.

To name just a few game that have strong female characters.

The Portal Series
The Elder Scrolls Series
The Fallout Series
Donkey Kong Country 2, 3, (and the upcoming game Tropical Freeze), along with their Land counterparts
Any Mario RPG
The Disgaea Series (although this runs heavy with sex appeal too, but there are plenty of "positive female role models")
Most MMOs where there is decent character customization
The Tomb Raider series
Perfect Dark

I could go on. You really have to be blind if you think there are no games with strong female characters.

"Make your own games?" What sort of fantasy world are you living in? Triple A, mainstream games require millions in funding and thousands of hours to make. The average person can't do that.

In other words, Capitalism sucks. Yeah, I get that. Hence my flag.

The fact that Capitalism is a shitty economic system, that prevents people from pursuing their dreams, doesn't justify your reasoning however.

"Don't like sexist oppression? Just deal with it!"
Fuck that. Fuck that so hard. No.

I wouldn't call it sexist oppression. Seriously, who is oppressed by the existence of bits of coding made to look like "beautiful" women? That's oppression? Jesus...

Like I said, Capitalism sucks. But that is an option.

And again, what sort of fantasy world are you living in? Mainstream game designers don't give half a shit what the public wants.

Uh, really? What fantasy world are you living in? Developers respond to the desires of the public all the time, especially when it comes to sequels.

I'm really doubting your claim that you're a gamer. If you are, you don't pay much attention to the broader gaming culture.

That's why they keep pumping out the same shooter crap over and over.

Um, the reason they keep pumping that garbage out, is because of the idiots who want it. This might come as a surprise, and disappointment to you, but there are people who actually want and enjoy those games. It's sad, and something that the gaming community has bitched about for years.

Just look at Microsoft's reveal of the Xbox One. Does it look like they have any idea what gamers want?

Microsoft is notorious for it's greed when it comes to anything it makes.

No. No they don't. Sending a letter to a game designer isn't going to do anything because the real world isn't an Saturday morning cartoon.

I highly disagree. Hell, I've seen plenty of times where the desires of a gaming community were responded to by developers. The upcoming DKC game is a perfect example of Retro responding to desires put forth by it's fans from the time they released Returns.

Yes you are. You literally just did in this very post.

Quote me. Show me the exact line where I claimed video games were a male thing, and women shouldn't be allowed to play them.

You're acting as if sexism isn't a problem and/or doesn't exist. That's almost the definition of misogyny.

First of all, misogyny isn't the lack of belief in sexism. I love how this term gets tossed around all the time, yet hardly anyone seems to understand what it means. I've completely lost any respect for the term.

Further more, no, I'm not pretending sexism doesn't exist. I've given specific arguments for why sexualized female game characters isn't sexism, and is not a moral evil.

Care to show the least bit of intellectual honesty dear?

Have a cookie for your intelligent post.

[Aurora Novus]

I don't think that. I just disagree with your reasoning for opposition. It's a common argument made, and it's a poor one. I don't like seeing it thrown around.

You are aware that there's a difference between "Fanservice is evil/sexist" and "The vast majority of woman characters in video games being used for fanservice is evil/sexist," right? I'm seeing a lot of the latter and not much of the former.

I don't see much a difference at all.

If there is nothing immoral about having female game character's, who's only purpose, or at least a purpose, is sex appeal, and there is nothing wrong about people liking that in a fantasy realm, then it logically follows that it doesn't matter how many people like it, it's still not immoral. And likewise, if lots of it is made, to appeal to the lots of people who like it, it's still not evil, nor immoral.

I've said this before, but what is with this hipster shit that claims "it's okay if only a few people like it, but if a lot of people like it, it magically becomes immoral"? Nonsense.

[Nailed to the Perch]

So we now have three different posters attesting that "hurt feelings" cause real harm.

Will Aurora please concede their point now?

Hurt feelings =/= PTSD.

I just want to remind everyone that Aurora's argument was explicitly that Holocaust survivors would not be hurt by a game glorifying the Holocaust.

Apparently, Holocaust survivors only suffer from "hurt feelings" about watching their families be murdered. Who knew?

Yes, how dare people who have suffered severe emotional trauma have the audacity to hear callous jokes! Obviously, all people who have suffered trauma should be force to live in isolation to fit your worldview.

Not what I'm saying.

What I'm saying is we, the public, have no responsibility to constantly live on edge, for fear of setting someone off. Nor should it be.

Once again, I want to remind everyone that Aurora's argument was explicitly that Holocaust survivors would not be hurt by a game glorifying the Holocaust.

Apparently, not glorifying the Holocaust is REALLY HARD and requires CONSTANTLY LIVING ON EDGE, you guys. I know I often trip and find I've accidentally yelled, "HEIL HITLER KILL ALL THE JEWS."

[Verbal Pararhea]

But one is left to wonder which direction the arrow ought to be pointing:

Consumer Interest in Non-Sexist Games ---------> Production and Sale of Non-Sexist Games
Consumer Interest in Non-Sexist Games <-------- Production and Sale of Non-Sexist Games

See, if the quality of non-sexist games is absolutely phenomenal but there's no consumer interest in them, then new market entrants won't have anyone to buy their products. That's why marketing strives to steer consumers' interests and attitudes toward the products. Consumer groups aimed at promoting attitudes such as I have described would supplement those new entrants' marketing efforts, and as a consequence their efforts are non-negligible.

Perhaps, but my cynicism leads me to believe that such activism almost never works and that money is the principle driving force behind most systemic decisions.

[Ainu Amaterasu]

The male privilege extends very far indeed! I've always tried to keep my world balanced with Samus though. Good luck out there!

[Dakini]

I think there's a wiki on almost everything. If you can think of something that wiki doesn't have, you should make the page.

Your style is classier though, with your hard rules and all.

I'm pretty sure I made a thread, at some point since we moved to this forum, about how obviously the best way to post is to interleave(though I didn't know to call it that), multi-quote using the topic review and multiple tabs, and use the hr tag to split up quotes from different people. I don't recall it going anywhere.

I don't generally like multiquoting. I mean, you do it well because you don't reply to 20 posts at once (and I'm not sure if I've noticed you doing this when breaking down a really large post). Someone on here gets several screens worth of replies to other people in one go and whenever I'm among those I just kinda give up.

I usually feel bad because the poster who does it is generally thoughtful, but I just don't want to sort through that shit.

[New Octopucta]

I don't see much a difference at all.

If there is nothing immoral about having female game character's, who's only purpose, or at least a purpose, is sex appeal, and there is nothing wrong about people liking that in a fantasy realm, then it logically follows that it doesn't matter how many people like it, it's still not immoral. And likewise, if lots of it is made, to appeal to the lots of people who like it, it's still not evil, nor immoral.

I've said this before, but what is with this hipster shit that claims "it's okay if only a few people like it, but if a lot of people like it, it magically becomes immoral"? Nonsense.

A few women and men here and there being used as a tease for people playing the game is okay because there is nothing wrong with pandering to people's sexual fantasies in and of itself. There is no underlying trend to it. When the overwhelming majority of female characters in video games serve only as eye candy or to serve male characters, then there is a trend. That is sexist, not because women are being objectified, but because it demonstrates and perpetuates the belief that women are nothing but objects both by its treatment of women characters and by its disregard for the women in the audience.