NSG Senate Chamber [NSG Senate]

by **The American Commune** » Sat May 25, 2013 5:14 am

(11) No one can be deprived of property, unless demanded by public necessity, legally constituted, and under the condition of a just and prior compensation,

I'm sure someone could try to use this to make taxation illegal.

by **Grenartia** » Sat May 25, 2013 5:26 am

The American Commune wrote:
(11) No one can be deprived of property, unless demanded by public necessity, legally constituted, and under the condition of a just and prior compensation,

I'm sure someone could try to use this to make taxation illegal.

Except, you know, taxation IS a public necessity, and it pays for public services, which are arguably just and prior compensation.

by **The American Commune** » Sat May 25, 2013 5:33 am

Grenartia wrote:
The American Commune wrote:
(11) No one can be deprived of property, unless demanded by public necessity, legally constituted, and under the condition of a just and prior compensation,

I'm sure someone could try to use this to make taxation illegal.

Except, you know, taxation IS a public necessity, and it pays for public services, which are arguably just and prior compensation.

That last part is what I'm worried about. I don't really want to leave any space for interpreting this law poorly.

by **Grenartia** » Sat May 25, 2013 5:35 am

The American Commune wrote:
Grenartia wrote:
Except, you know, taxation IS a public necessity, and it pays for public services, which are arguably just and prior compensation.

That last part is what I'm worried about. I don't really want to leave any space for interpreting this law poorly.

True...

by **Polvia** » Sat May 25, 2013 6:49 am

Grenartia wrote:
The American Commune wrote:That last part is what I'm worried about. I don't really want to leave any space for interpreting this law poorly.

True...

Perhaps the terminology should be changed from "property" to "Real Property"?

by **The United Soviet Socialist Republic** » Sat May 25, 2013 8:15 am

Old Tyrannia wrote:The Commonwealth Armed Forces Act also has enough sponsors to be added to the queue.
Commonwealth Armed Forces Act

Urgency: High | Sponsors: Old Tyrannia, Evraim, Strykla, Byzantium Imperial, Great Nepal

THE SENATE OF AURENTINA,

RECOGNIZING that the Commonwealth of Aurentina currently lacks an organized military force, and that this leaves our nation vulnerable to attack;

MANDATES the formation of a national military, officially titled the Commonwealth Armed Forces;

FURTHER MANDATES the division of the Armed Forces into three branches of service, the Commonwealth Navy, the Commonwealth Army and the Commonwealth Airforce;

ESTABLISHES the Commonwealth General Headquarters as the governing body of the CAF, to be composed of the most senior officers of the three branches of service, appointed by and answerable to the Minister of Defence.

ESTABLISHES that the prerogative to declare war shall remain solely with the Senate;

ESTABLISHES the Chiefs of Staff as professional heads of the Armed Forces, including:
The General Chief of Staff - Professional Head of the Commonwealth Army
The Chief of Naval Staff - Professional Head of the Commonwealth Navy
The Chief of Airforce Staff - Professional Head of the Commonwealth Airforce
The Chief of Defence Staff - Professional Head of the entire Commonwealth Armed Forces

MANDATES that all physically and mentally fit citizens of 16 years of age and without criminal records may join the Commonwealth Armed Forces:

FURTHER MANDATES that citizens may be deployed for active duty at 18 years of age;

RECOGNIZING that enlistment in the CAF must be voluntary;

ALLOWING conscription only under a state of national emergency declared by the Senate, and mandating that conscripts with a deeply held moral objection to fighting be allowed to serve in non-combat roles.

ESTABLISHES that the salary of personnel in the CAF shall be decided by the Ministry of Defence;

MANDATES that the minimal length of service for CAF personnel shall be five years, with the option to serve an additional two years and so on until personnel are no longer physically or mentally able;

ESTABLISHES that the pension arrangements of CAF personnel shall be organized by the Ministry of Defence, subject to the approval of the Senate.

THUS ESTABLISHES the Commonwealth Armed Forces.

Support and are willing to sponsor.

by **Geilinor** » Sat May 25, 2013 10:51 am

Grenartia wrote:
The American Commune wrote:
(11) No one can be deprived of property, unless demanded by public necessity, legally constituted, and under the condition of a just and prior compensation,

I'm sure someone could try to use this to make taxation illegal.

Except, you know, taxation IS a public necessity, and it pays for public services, which are arguably just and prior compensation.

The public services aren't "prior compensation", though. The government provides public services after taxes are paid, not before. Tax evaders don't get all their public services. Their wages are garnished or they go to jail.

by **Ainin** » Sat May 25, 2013 11:09 am

Are we still debating the NBOR?

by **Belmaria** » Sat May 25, 2013 12:37 pm

I think we need to get back to the issue of thought crime being vaguely described in this bill. I would support an amendment to revise the wording, but I am new here and don't know how that works...

by **Vedastia** » Sat May 25, 2013 2:42 pm

The Legal Compensation Act now has enough sponsors to be added to the queue.

by **Grenartia** » Sat May 25, 2013 2:46 pm

We really should get to debating this bill. Has anybody amended the bill to fit the recent criticisms?

by **Belmaria** » Sat May 25, 2013 2:49 pm

I would amend it if I knew how, but I haven't seen any instructions on how to do that.

by **Grenartia** » Sat May 25, 2013 2:51 pm

Belmaria wrote:I would amend it if I knew how, but I haven't seen any instructions on how to do that.

I think only the authors and cosponsors can amend it...

by **Polvia** » Sat May 25, 2013 3:36 pm

I wish to suggest the following amendments.
(7) Remove it, or amend it to say something along the lines of:

The production, trade and ownership of ammunition and weapons shall be permitted, as allowed by law.

(11) Change the term "property" to "Real Property" to clarify the clause.

by **Belmaria** » Sat May 25, 2013 3:42 pm

Polvia wrote:I wish to suggest the following amendments.
(7) Remove it, or amend it to say something along the lines of:
The production, trade and ownership of ammunition and weapons shall be permitted, as allowed by law.

(11) Change the term "property" to "Real Property" to clarify the clause.

When you say "as allowed by law" then that basically allows anyone to pass a law banning all guns. Then no guns would be "allowed by law" and that section would be basically useless. And if you say "Real property" that's still pretty vague. You would have to have an extensive definition of what constitutes property and what doesn't.

Therefore, I am against these proposed changes.

by **Mishmahig** » Sat May 25, 2013 3:46 pm

For the Sexual Industry Regulation Act portion of the omnibus National Bill of Rights Act, I would like to see a clause amending the pornography section to ban any and all representations of child pornography (defining a 'child' as a person under the age of consent/majority). Currently, only films are restricted to adults. Pictures/other forms of pornography should also be included in that definition, hence proposed change.

Otherwise, I support the National Bill of Rights Act.

by **Polvia** » Sat May 25, 2013 4:07 pm

Belmaria wrote:
Polvia wrote:I wish to suggest the following amendments.
(7) Remove it, or amend it to say something along the lines of:
The production, trade and ownership of ammunition and weapons shall be permitted, as allowed by law.

(11) Change the term "property" to "Real Property" to clarify the clause.

When you say "as allowed by law" then that basically allows anyone to pass a law banning all guns. Then no guns would be "allowed by law" and that section would be basically useless. And if you say "Real property" that's still pretty vague. You would have to have an extensive definition of what constitutes property and what doesn't.

Therefore, I am against these proposed changes.

On (7): I'm against a right to bear arms, so yeah.
On (11): Real Property is an actual term meaning (in short): all land, structures, firmly attached and integrated equipment (such as light fixtures or a well pump) and anything growing on the land.

by **The Treorai** » Sat May 25, 2013 4:32 pm

Limiting Legislation Act
Urgency: Utmost

Drafted By: The Treorai
Sponsor(s): Hathradic States, Beta Test.

BELIEVING That in a democratic society, Basic Human Rights should be defended,

APPALLED At the fact that some politicians would seek to violate the basic human rights of the citizens of our nation,

DEFINES A "Citizen" as any registered member of our nation.

FURTHER DEFINES Basic Human Rights As;

(1) The right for all born humans to live,

(2) The right to free speech,

(3) The right to free thought,

(4) The right to actively participate in government

(5) The right to free expression,

(6) Freedom of and from Religion,

(7) The right to own, trade, and produce firearms and ammunition, as well as use them in situations deemed as necessary self defense, in recreational practice against inanimate objects, and when hunting wild animals for game, food or sport,
(a) Allows this senate to place reasonable restrictions on firearms, though lists the following acceptable traits for firearms;

-Firearms may possess rifled, or non rifled barrels,
-Small Firearms such as pistols may be able to fire no more than 11 rounds before reloading is required,
-Large Semi-Automatic Firearms, such as hunting rifles may be able to fire no more than 6 rounds before reloading is required,
-Automatic weapons may be able to fire no more than 18 rounds before reloading is required,
-Pistol Grips and other modifications that only change the appearance of a firearm are to be considered legal,
-Rifle Mounted Grenade Launchers, Rifle Mounted Flame Throwers, and other modifications that cause death and injury independently of the main firing function of the firearms it is mounted are to be considered illegal,
-Explosive Ammunition such as Rocket Propelled Grenades, and the weapons fire them are to be considered illegal,
(b) Noting that these restrictions are only to the general public, and have no effect on our nation's military or police force,

(8) The right to a fair and balanced trial,

(9) The right to a paid or court appointed attorney in the court of law,

(11) No one can be deprived of property, unless demanded by public necessity, legally constituted, and under the condition of a just and prior compensation,

(12) Freedom from unjustified search and seizure of private property,

FURTHER BELIEVES That the Senate has no place violating these aforementioned rights of our citizens,

PREVENTS Legislation changing, suppressing, or otherwise tampering with these human rights,

DENIES Rights (4) and (7) to those who have been previously incarcerated,

DICTATES No Person is above the law, and all people must adhere to it,

FURTHER DICTATES Speech and Written Material harmful in nature are not protected by this act,

ALSO DEFINES "Harmful in nature" as slander, personal information not belonging to they who utter the information, sensitive information, open threats against another person, and threats of open rebellion, or terrorism against our nation.

ALSO DICTATES This act does not protect those using other people's work without permission of the owner,

BANS Slavery, and other forms of non-paid labor, such as Child Labor, and the owning of human beings,

ESTABLISHES This as the official Bill of Rights of our Nation.

by **Geadland** » Sat May 25, 2013 4:32 pm

Given that firearms are (presumably) unregulated at the moment in Aurentina, it would be sily to impose a blanket ban on firearms, because "bad guys" who already own firearms are not going to comply with it. Establishing it as a "right" is unecessary.

by **Grenartia** » Sat May 25, 2013 4:42 pm

The Treorai wrote:
Limiting Legislation Act
Urgency: Utmost

Drafted By: The Treorai
Sponsor(s): Hathradic States, Beta Test.

BELIEVING That in a democratic society, Basic Human Rights should be defended,

APPALLED At the fact that some politicians would seek to violate the basic human rights of the citizens of our nation,

DEFINES A "Citizen" as any registered member of our nation.

FURTHER DEFINES Basic Human Rights As;

(1) The right for all born humans to live,

(2) The right to free speech,

(3) The right to free thought,

(4) The right to actively participate in government

(5) The right to free expression,

(6) Freedom of and from Religion,

(7) The right to own, trade, and produce firearms and ammunition, as well as use them in situations deemed as necessary self defense, in recreational practice against inanimate objects, and when hunting wild animals for game, food or sport,
(a) Allows this senate to place reasonable restrictions on firearms, though lists the following acceptable traits for firearms;

-Firearms may possess rifled, or non rifled barrels,
-Small Firearms such as pistols may be able to fire no more than 11 rounds before reloading is required,
-Large Semi-Automatic Firearms, such as hunting rifles may be able to fire no more than 6 rounds before reloading is required,
-Automatic weapons may be able to fire no more than 18 rounds before reloading is required,
-Pistol Grips and other modifications that only change the appearance of a firearm are illegal,
-Rifle Mounted Grenade Launchers, Rifle Mounted Flame Throwers, and other modifications that cause death and injury independently of the main firing function of the firearms it is mounted are to be considered illegal,
-Explosive Ammunition such as Rocket Propelled Grenades, and the weapons fire them are to be considered illegal,
(b) Noting that these restrictions are only to the general public, and have no effect on our nation's military or police force,

(8) The right to a fair and balanced trial,

(9) The right to a paid or court appointed attorney in the court of law,

(11) No one can be deprived of property, unless demanded by public necessity, legally constituted, and under the condition of a just and prior compensation,

(12) Freedom from unjustified search and seizure of private property,

FURTHER BELIEVES That the Senate has no place violating these aforementioned rights of our citizens,

PREVENTS Legislation changing, suppressing, or otherwise tampering with these human rights,

DICTATES No Person is above the law, and all people must adhere to it,

FURTHER DICTATES Speech and Written Material harmful, or seditious in nature are not protected by this act,

ALSO DEFINES "Harmful or Seditious in nature" as slander, personal information not belonging to they who utter the information, sensitive information, open threats against another person, and threats of open rebellion, or terrorism against our nation.

ALSO DICTATES This act does not protect those using other people's work without permission of the owner,

BANS Slavery, and other forms of non-paid labor, such as Child Labor, and the owning of human beings,

ESTABLISHES This as the official Bill of Rights of our Nation.

Took out the bit about thoughts, and made the firearms clause less vague.

Sounds good, save for the bits about no pistol grips.

by **The Treorai** » Sat May 25, 2013 4:44 pm

Grenartia wrote:
The Treorai wrote:
Limiting Legislation Act
Urgency: Utmost

Drafted By: The Treorai
Sponsor(s): Hathradic States, Beta Test.

BELIEVING That in a democratic society, Basic Human Rights should be defended,

APPALLED At the fact that some politicians would seek to violate the basic human rights of the citizens of our nation,

DEFINES A "Citizen" as any registered member of our nation.

FURTHER DEFINES Basic Human Rights As;

(1) The right for all born humans to live,

(2) The right to free speech,

(3) The right to free thought,

(4) The right to actively participate in government

(5) The right to free expression,

(6) Freedom of and from Religion,

(7) The right to own, trade, and produce firearms and ammunition, as well as use them in situations deemed as necessary self defense, in recreational practice against inanimate objects, and when hunting wild animals for game, food or sport,
(a) Allows this senate to place reasonable restrictions on firearms, though lists the following acceptable traits for firearms;

-Firearms may possess rifled, or non rifled barrels,
-Small Firearms such as pistols may be able to fire no more than 11 rounds before reloading is required,
-Large Semi-Automatic Firearms, such as hunting rifles may be able to fire no more than 6 rounds before reloading is required,
-Automatic weapons may be able to fire no more than 18 rounds before reloading is required,
-Pistol Grips and other modifications that only change the appearance of a firearm are illegal,
-Rifle Mounted Grenade Launchers, Rifle Mounted Flame Throwers, and other modifications that cause death and injury independently of the main firing function of the firearms it is mounted are to be considered illegal,
-Explosive Ammunition such as Rocket Propelled Grenades, and the weapons fire them are to be considered illegal,
(b) Noting that these restrictions are only to the general public, and have no effect on our nation's military or police force,

(8) The right to a fair and balanced trial,

(9) The right to a paid or court appointed attorney in the court of law,

(11) No one can be deprived of property, unless demanded by public necessity, legally constituted, and under the condition of a just and prior compensation,

(12) Freedom from unjustified search and seizure of private property,

FURTHER BELIEVES That the Senate has no place violating these aforementioned rights of our citizens,

PREVENTS Legislation changing, suppressing, or otherwise tampering with these human rights,

DICTATES No Person is above the law, and all people must adhere to it,

FURTHER DICTATES Speech and Written Material harmful, or seditious in nature are not protected by this act,

ALSO DEFINES "Harmful or Seditious in nature" as slander, personal information not belonging to they who utter the information, sensitive information, open threats against another person, and threats of open rebellion, or terrorism against our nation.

ALSO DICTATES This act does not protect those using other people's work without permission of the owner,

BANS Slavery, and other forms of non-paid labor, such as Child Labor, and the owning of human beings,

ESTABLISHES This as the official Bill of Rights of our Nation.

Took out the bit about thoughts, and made the firearms clause less vague.

Sounds good, save for the bits about no pistol grips.

Oh crap, I meant legal. BACK TO THE EDITING BOARD!

by **Ainin** » Sat May 25, 2013 4:46 pm

So where's our unofficial official queue lister guy gone?

by **Regnum Dominae** » Sat May 25, 2013 4:50 pm

FURTHER DICTATES Speech and Written Material harmful, or seditious in nature are not protected by this act,

ALSO DEFINES "Harmful or Seditious in nature" as slander, personal information not belonging to they who utter the information, sensitive information, open threats against another person, and threats of open rebellion, or terrorism against our nation.

The "sedition" stuff still needs to go.

by **The Treorai** » Sat May 25, 2013 4:51 pm

Ainin wrote:So where's our unofficial official queue lister guy gone?

Right here, but I've been a bit busy with my bill being in queue and what not. If people would be willing to throw up some links, I'll put up a new queue.

by **Ainin** » Sat May 25, 2013 5:00 pm

The Treorai wrote:
Ainin wrote:So where's our unofficial official queue lister guy gone?

Right here, but I've been a bit busy with my bill being in queue and what not. If people would be willing to throw up some links, I'll put up a new queue.

viewtopic.php?p=14614848#p14614848
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=239510&p=14624932&hilit=improvement#p14624932
viewtopic.php?p=14643069#p14643069
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