Liberals VS Conservatives

[Livonia]

I dont really get why there are so many left-wingers in this thread arguing for liberalism, liberalism is not a left-wing ideology.

If you think otherwise then google is your friend, go ahead and look it up. OP may have also referred to liberals and conservatives as in social policies but i doubt it since he added "centrist" as an option.

Liberalism means a lot of things, but in America it generally means...

Most of the world considers liberalism to be a belief characterized by economic and social freedom, but in the United States, the liberals want the complete opposite.
They dont want the society to be free, they want the society to abide by their own rules defined by political correctness and the economy to be as restricted as possible.

That's not liberalism, its something resembling social democracy but much more authoritarian in nature, not that the conservatives in the US of A would be much more clear minded.

[Jessjohnesik]

Fuck tradition. Tradition is useless and pointless.
Have you got any arguments for it?

If you read my sig, I think you wouldn't have got the impression, that I was a conservative.

That is if you're able to do such a thing...

I don't read sigs usually...
Should probably start doing it.

[Duvniask]

If you read my sig, I think you wouldn't have got the impression, that I was a conservative.

That is if you're able to do such a thing...

I don't read sigs usually...
Should probably start doing it.

Yeah, that's good idea.

[Livonia]

Conservatim is not the break of progress, definately not.

Id like if you defined progress for me.

Yes it is. It also very oftenly violates human rights. For example, conservative's stance on abortion, irreligiousity and homosexuals.
Progress:

Progress (history), the idea that the world can become increasingly better in terms of science, technology, modernization, liberty, democracy, quality of life, etc.

I dont really see how the "conservative" stance on abortion, irreligiousity and homosexuality violates human rights.
Besides, human rights are not completely objective, they are rules made up by the UN.

And doesnt every political belief strive for progress as you have defined it? They all have different ways achieving 'progress' and i dont see how reverting back to degeneracy and decadence as many "social liberals" today advocate is progress in any way.

[Kazinstan]

Conservative, although they are Right-Wing, they actually do things and are much more respectable.

[Warped Aggression]

center right.

[Gaiaopolis]

I'm a solid Social Liberal and Social Democrat.

[Duvniask]

Yes it is. It also very oftenly violates human rights. For example, conservative's stance on abortion, irreligiousity and homosexuals.
Progress:

Progress (history), the idea that the world can become increasingly better in terms of science, technology, modernization, liberty, democracy, quality of life, etc.

I dont really see how the "conservative" stance on abortion, irreligiousity and homosexuality violates human rights.
Besides, human rights are not completely objective, they are rules made up by the UN.

And doesnt every political belief strive for progress as you have defined it? They all have different ways achieving 'progress' and i dont see how reverting back to degeneracy and decadence as many "social liberals" today advocate is progress in any way.

I don't see how things such as equal rights and secularism is "degeneracy".

Conservatism means to retain traditional social institutions.

[Jessjohnesik]

Yes it is. It also very oftenly violates human rights. For example, conservative's stance on abortion, irreligiousity and homosexuals.
Progress:

Progress (history), the idea that the world can become increasingly better in terms of science, technology, modernization, liberty, democracy, quality of life, etc.

I dont really see how the "conservative" stance on abortion, irreligiousity and homosexuality violates human rights.
Besides, human rights are not completely objective, they are rules made up by the UN.

And doesnt every political belief strive for progress as you have defined it? They all have different ways achieving 'progress' and i dont see how reverting back to degeneracy and decadence as many "social liberals" today advocate is progress in any way.

Not all people want to go back to the Middle Ages.
Where anyone who didn't accept the archaic views was burned at the stake.
It all started from Hypatia's death, the 'dark ages'.

[Kachilla]

LIBERALISM!!! I am left-wing and rather socialist (though not communist).

[Livonia]

I dont really see how the "conservative" stance on abortion, irreligiousity and homosexuality violates human rights.
Besides, human rights are not completely objective, they are rules made up by the UN.

And doesnt every political belief strive for progress as you have defined it? They all have different ways achieving 'progress' and i dont see how reverting back to degeneracy and decadence as many "social liberals" today advocate is progress in any way.

I don't see how things such as equal rights and secularism is "degeneracy".

Conservatism means to retain traditional social institutions.

Actually, conservatism means to retain the social institutions that have actually worked in the past, not to jump on a new bandwagon every other now and then.

Equal rights, of course its a beautiful word and would be a good cause indeed but how the "liberals" of today apply it is basically degeneracy. They support moral decline in the name of social freedom or whatnot.
That's not something i could agree with.

[Conscentia]

at poll.

Conservativism is the ideology of resisting or actively opposing political change.
Liberalism is the ideology which has liberty (freedom) as an end goal, manifesting itself in many forms due to differing interpretations of liberty.
Centrist refers to a position between left-wing and right-wing.

As a progressive, I'm not a conservative.
As I do not consider liberty particularly desirable in itself and certainly not an end goal, I'm not a liberal.
As a leftist, I'm not a centrist.

[Livonia]

I dont really see how the "conservative" stance on abortion, irreligiousity and homosexuality violates human rights.
Besides, human rights are not completely objective, they are rules made up by the UN.

And doesnt every political belief strive for progress as you have defined it? They all have different ways achieving 'progress' and i dont see how reverting back to degeneracy and decadence as many "social liberals" today advocate is progress in any way.

Not all people want to go back to the Middle Ages.
Where anyone who didn't accept the archaic views was burned at the stake.
It all started from Hypatia's death, the 'dark ages'.

The middle ages is a really bad argument, i see it gets brought up a lot as a strawman.

You should take 1880's - 1900's Europe as a great example, the technology and quality of life was prospering, there were major breakthroughs in the field of science, medicine. Cars eventually became available for the common man, the economy of all the countries in Europe was flourishing but yet the society was not liberal but conservative in nature.

[Farnhamia]

I dont really see how the "conservative" stance on abortion, irreligiousity and homosexuality violates human rights.
Besides, human rights are not completely objective, they are rules made up by the UN.

And doesnt every political belief strive for progress as you have defined it? They all have different ways achieving 'progress' and i dont see how reverting back to degeneracy and decadence as many "social liberals" today advocate is progress in any way.

Not all people want to go back to the Middle Ages.
Where anyone who didn't accept the archaic views was burned at the stake.
It all started from Hypatia's death, the 'dark ages'.

Classical antiquity would have ended eventually, with or without Hypatia's death. Hellenistic philosophy continued to flourish for another century or more after the start of the 5th century. Nor were the Dark Ages that dark, or the cities of Europe illuminated by burning dissenters. Generalization is detrimental to critical thinking.

[Livonia]

Conservativism is the ideology of resisting or actively opposing political change..

Many of the European countries today are very liberal, so it would be conservative to support the current order of these nations?

That's quite wrong, my friend.

[Conscentia]

Conservativism is the ideology of resisting or actively opposing political change..

Many of the European countries today are very liberal, so it would be conservative to support the current order of these nations?
That's quite wrong, my friend.

Er, That is precisely what they do.

[Livonia]

Many of the European countries today are very liberal, so it would be conservative to support the current order of these nations?
That's quite wrong, my friend.

Er, That is precisely what they do.

Have it however you like.

So we can all safely assume that all the liberal parties of European countries that support social and economic liberalism are not actually liberal but ideologically conservative?

[Gauntleted Fist]

I am a leftist. So I don't really like any of them.

[Conscentia]

Er, That is precisely what they do.

Have it however you like.
So we can all safely assume that all the liberal parties of European countries that support social and economic liberalism are not actually liberal but ideologically conservative?

No. A conservative would seek to preserve the status quo, and perhaps undo recent changes.
A liberal would continue to increase freedoms.

[Duvniask]

I don't see how things such as equal rights and secularism is "degeneracy".

Conservatism means to retain traditional social institutions.

Actually, conservatism means to retain the social institutions that have actually worked in the past, not to jump on a new bandwagon every other now and then.

It's about preserving traditional values and instituions, nothing about whether or not they work.

Equal rights, of course its a beautiful word and would be a good cause indeed but how the "liberals" of today apply it is basically degeneracy. They support moral decline in the name of social freedom or whatnot.
That's not something i could agree with.

Give me an example of "moral decline", I'm curious what you mean by that.

[Livonia]

Have it however you like.
So we can all safely assume that all the liberal parties of European countries that support social and economic liberalism are not actually liberal but ideologically conservative?

No. A conservative would seek to preserve the status quo, and perhaps undo recent changes.
A liberal would continue to increase freedoms.

No, a conservative would simply prefer a social system that has already worked in history and if such system is already working in the country then a conservative would oppose unneccessary reforms that would possibly endanger the stability of the social order.

A liberal would start reforming the society without a hesitation. You cant have total freedom, to achieve some freedom in certain categories, you must cede some of your freedom in others.

[Conscentia]

No. A conservative would seek to preserve the status quo, and perhaps undo recent changes.
A liberal would continue to increase freedoms.

No, a conservative would simply prefer a social system that has already worked in history and if such system is already working in the country then a conservative would oppose unneccessary reforms that would possibly endanger the stability of the social order.

If you think that conservatives would support undoing changes which were made long long ago, then I'm quite sure that you are confusing conservatives with reactionaries. It is reactionaries who support regression.

A liberal would start reforming the society without a hesitation. You cant have total freedom, to achieve some freedom in certain categories, you must cede some of your freedom in others.

Depends on thy interpretation of liberty, as I stated in the definition I provided.

[ALMF]

Although I believe this 2 terms are preety general, they are used a lot here. Fun thing about this site is that the one side claims that the opposite side is the majortiy here. So what is the truth? Which one are you? Which one is better and why?

I am a conservative.

The funny thing is definitions. International PoliSci recognizes 5 or 9 depending on weather one counts the sides. NS goes to 27 by splitting ech into 3 on "political freedom" instead of associating it with "civil rights" so Conservative is low economic regulation and high personal regulation, Liberal is low both, Social is low personal and high economic, and Paternalistic witch is high in both. So the Liberal/Conservative debate both miss me as social. Note Leninism, Moueism and the former eastern block are Paternalistic.

[Livonia]

Actually, conservatism means to retain the social institutions that have actually worked in the past, not to jump on a new bandwagon every other now and then.

It's about preserving traditional values and instituions, nothing about whether or not they work.

Equal rights, of course its a beautiful word and would be a good cause indeed but how the "liberals" of today apply it is basically degeneracy. They support moral decline in the name of social freedom or whatnot.
That's not something i could agree with.

Give me an example of "moral decline", I'm curious what you mean by that.

Conservatives emphasize stability of the state as a priority, traditions goes hand to hand with conservatism. But conservatives are no fools, whether or not you think so doesnt really matter, they would not seek to return to an unworking social order but they still hold tradition dear.

And for moral decline, for example liberals often seem to support disgusting acts such as beastiality, transsexuality(this is a sensitive topic on nationstates as it seems and i wouldnt want to start arguing on it since its really subjective), extreme promiscuity, feminism in its male hating form, all sorts of weird sexual deviances, the destruction of traditions, "multiculturalism" - note the quotation marks, infusion of the feeling of guilty to the society, the destruction of the model family and so on.
Those were the ones that first popped into my mind but the list doesnt stop there.

I cant really support liberals for that matter, i used to be one but i realized that the future they wish for is definately not the one i would live in.

EDIT: I have to go for some two hours, if youre interested in continuing this debate then i will be back.

[Samuraikoku]

And for moral decline, for example liberals often seem to support disgusting acts such as beastiality

Wwwwrrrrooooooooong!

You'd realize if you read the slippery slope comments about "gay marriage will lead the way to pedophilia and bestiality!" that liberalism does not advocate marriage between parties that cannot give proper consent.

the destruction of traditions

"And dragons were just stories. And Elves once ruled Skyrim.

Just because something is, does not mean it should be."

- Eorlund Grey-Mane