ITALIAN ELECTIONS: PD FIRED! ITALY GOES "TECHNICAL" (AGAIN)?

[Agritum]

I hope Berlusconi will never be elected again.
http://sphotos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/487160_10151345274894751_1792589705_n.jpg

IIRC, Villaggio is actually left wing. It just makes it even more funnier.

[Pesda]

Is a minority government possible, if coalition talks fail?

No, the cabinet must win the confidence of both Houses with a double majority. Plurality isn't enough.

A "minority" cabinet is possible if by that we mean that the ministers are all from one coalition (let's say, Bersani's) and Grillo's party give confidence in the Senate while not having any representation in the cabinet itself. It's called here "appoggio esterno" (sustaining from outside).

I see.

[Socialist EU]

I assure you I'm not in denial. I'm mystified as to how you think communists favour the status quo. My slogan "Towards a communist party of the European Union" is there for a reason. Most people own property, ok, so they own a house, to live in usually, not to employ and exploit people. Although, some own many houses/apartments, become landlords who skim off the surplus value off the worker, with high rent charges, are telling me that is all fine with you? And what I meant by small owners of capital is small business owners.

You say I'm in denial, but what is meant by the the dismissal of class antagonisms, "not a simple them and us - proletariat, bourgeoisie situation' of course not. What were you saying about cuts to pensions, education, welfare again? You call for short-term pain, nice, that will help the working class's pension, welfare situation won't it.

Apologies on not reading up on your slogan and what not. Well I don't think employing people necessarily exploits them; I'm also completely fine with a landlord taking someones money away from them in rent (I dont subscribe the surplus theory of labor). I do think its unfair if rents are inappropriately high - their should be a system in place to ensure that people who cant afford rent have a house, restrictions on dodgy landlord practices and so on but if you can't afford to live in a property. MOVE. - I think this is something neither of us will agree on so lets leave that.

I'm not dismissing their are class antagonisms but it's not as simple as saying "the workers" "working people". Its much more complex than that small holders of capital can be working class - the person who owns the local cornershop and employs about 3 people earning a pittance are they not working class? are they not providing a service and employment for the community - why would you not want to help them improve their business?

And yes I support short term pain - otherwise their simply wont be any money left. I'm 19, if we carry on with this level of debt and expenditure I wont get any pension WHATSOEVER, I wont have an NHS to rely on ETC and neither will my potential children or grandchildren. If you really want their to be support for working people you have to be realistic and change otherwise in the future their will be NO support at all

Interesting points you've made and I welcome them. On rents, I'll add that rent control would be very helpful as would helping the struggling petty-bourgeoisie. But when you talk about realism, this is something you hear from the reformists and isn't short-term pain something you hear from the likes of Merkel and the IMF, albeit from a different angle? Your suggestion of short-term pain is barely any different from what is already being offered, in other words you'd be shooting yourselves in the foot.

[Socialist EU]

But they're in a minority. That's why we need an alternative, we need a communist party that can operate across Europe and in the European Parliament.

FIAT Group isn't exactly a mom and pop shop...

Not sure what your point is.

[Risottia]

...Well, sure some big stuff-producing corps like, dunno, FIAT seem to prefer Obama's Keynes-Light to Barroso's Chicagogo.

But they're in a minority.

Eh, yup. This is a country with mostly small-to-mid-sized enterprises.

That's why we need an alternative, we need a communist party that can operate across Europe and in the European Parliament.

I'm all for it. Hell, even a decent pan-European centre-left would be most welcome right now.

[Socialist EU]

But they're in a minority.

Eh, yup. This is a country with mostly small-to-mid-sized enterprises.

That's why we need an alternative, we need a communist party that can operate across Europe and in the European Parliament.

I'm all for it. Hell, even a decent pan-European centre-left would be most welcome right now.

Indeed. There is the European days of action on the 13th and 14th of next month and Euro elections next year, we'll have to wait and see what happens.

[Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f]

Risottia for King! Or President or something...NS ought to invade Italy, install Risottia as boss dude and then go for pizza and beer...

[Thesan]

Risottia for King! Or President or something...NS ought to invade Italy, install Risottia as boss dude and then go for pizza and beer...

...well not till this point, but as candidate of the Democratic Party for the Premiership, maybe....

[Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f]

Risottia for King! Or President or something...NS ought to invade Italy, install Risottia as boss dude and then go for pizza and beer...

...well not till this point, but as candidate of the Democratic Party for the Premiership, maybe....

Anything but a nutcase right?

[Socialist EU]

Risottia for King! Or President or something...NS ought to invade Italy, install Risottia as boss dude and then go for pizza and beer...

...well not till this point, but as candidate of the Democratic Party for the Premiership, maybe....

I'm sure Risottia is too nice a chap for that.

[Felbah]

Bersani looks good in the fact file. I'd go with him, but I ain't Italian.

Also, I like how San Marino is a giant lake on the map.

[Socialist EU]

It looks like either a short-term minority government with elections sometime this year or more elections as soon as possible, in which case I'd pick the Civic Revolution for both houses.

[Thesan]

It looks like either a short-term minority government with elections sometime this year or more elections as soon as possible, in which case I'd pick the Civic Revolution for both houses.

It' will never happen, because Civil Revolution is only the "dump" of all the old communist/socialist/socialdemocrat leaders (like Diliberto, Di Pietro and Ferrero) that failed their work and that wanted only to come back in the parliament (the radical left isn't in the parliament since 2008, interesting...)
Today the left-wingers that don't want anymore the corruption of the Democratic Party vote 5 Stars (and this is interesting, because even many little entrepeneurs have voted M5S) because many things that Ingroia wanted are already in the 5 Stars political program.

[Socialist EU]

It looks like either a short-term minority government with elections sometime this year or more elections as soon as possible, in which case I'd pick the Civic Revolution for both houses.

It' will never happen, because Civil Revolution is only the "dump" of all the old communist/socialist/socialdemocrat leaders (like Diliberto, Di Pietro and Ferrero) that failed their work and that wanted only to come back in the parliament (the radical left isn't in the parliament since 2008, interesting...)
Today the left-wingers that don't want anymore the corruption of the Democratic Party vote 5 Stars (and this is interesting, because even many little entrepeneurs have voted M5S) because many things that Ingroia wanted are already in the 5 Stars political program.

Including denying immigrants and their offspring citizenship? I think not!!! The 5S Movement is a right-wing populist Italian UKIP.

[Thesan]

It' will never happen, because Civil Revolution is only the "dump" of all the old communist/socialist/socialdemocrat leaders (like Diliberto, Di Pietro and Ferrero) that failed their work and that wanted only to come back in the parliament (the radical left isn't in the parliament since 2008, interesting...)
Today the left-wingers that don't want anymore the corruption of the Democratic Party vote 5 Stars (and this is interesting, because even many little entrepeneurs have voted M5S) because many things that Ingroia wanted are already in the 5 Stars political program.

Including denying immigrants and their offspring citizenship? I think not!!!

You're thinking like an european for an italian question (an error that too many do): Grillo is only the leader of the M5S but it's the base that decides and the base of the party is mainly "lefty", plus Grillo has never said that he would put the immigrants in concentration camps or sumthin' like that... he said only that this isn't the right time because the priority is the bureaucracy and the corruption (and effectively he's quite right... they're skyrocketing and the economy is sinking due to this...)

[Socialist EU]

Including denying immigrants and their offspring citizenship? I think not!!!

You're thinking like an european for an italian question (an error that too many do): Grillo is only the leader of the M5S but it's the base that decides and the base of the party is mainly "lefty", plus Grillo has never said that he would put the immigrants in concentration camps or sumthin' like that... he said only that this isn't the right time because the priority is the bureaucracy and the corruption (and effectively he's quite right... they're skyrocketing and the economy is sinking due to this...)

However today the "Fuhrer" Grillo has decided to do a thing that of democratic has nothing: He expelled Favia (the chief of the Favians) and Salsi only because they have express their disagreement with Grillo in public. I was still in the movement because Grillo didn't had power till today... all the other expulsions were voted, but now it seems like that a Stalinian Purge is in action... and I don't want to be part of this movement anymore.
So, italians of NS, I've lost my political faith and I don't want to be part of the abstention (and I dunno where to ask this), what would you advise me to do?

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=213243

How quickly you forget!

[Thesan]

You're thinking like an european for an italian question (an error that too many do): Grillo is only the leader of the M5S but it's the base that decides and the base of the party is mainly "lefty", plus Grillo has never said that he would put the immigrants in concentration camps or sumthin' like that... he said only that this isn't the right time because the priority is the bureaucracy and the corruption (and effectively he's quite right... they're skyrocketing and the economy is sinking due to this...)

However today the "Fuhrer" Grillo has decided to do a thing that of democratic has nothing: He expelled Favia (the chief of the Favians) and Salsi only because they have express their disagreement with Grillo in public. I was still in the movement because Grillo didn't had power till today... all the other expulsions were voted, but now it seems like that a Stalinian Purge is in action... and I don't want to be part of this movement anymore.
So, italians of NS, I've lost my political faith and I don't want to be part of the abstention (and I dunno where to ask this), what would you advise me to do?

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=213243

How quickly you forget!

I don't forget, I was a member of 5 Stars, but exactly because I'm an ex-member I can say this: the base is different from Grillo, and the deputies and senators elected by the M5S are elected between the base, not by Grillo, with a "parlamentary" election between the party members (due to a delaying of my expulsion I have even voted for my representative in Lombardy 2 that has been elected, to give you an example) and you have to consider that these "purges" are absolutely normal in the other parties like the Democratic Party and the People of Freedom...

The M5S is a great party with a terrible leader, but when it'll be the time to do decisions, the base will decide, not Grillo (or he won't be elected again because it'll mean that the M5S is exactly like the other parties).

I can assure you this: the party is different and really "left-liberal" the only problem is that its leader (the only one that talks) is an hysteric with bipolar disorder, but the base is full of people like this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GXnTlm_xck

Mattia Calise: 21 years, M5S City Councillor, Milan City Hall,
Proposed the abolition of the super-salary of the City Councillor (and actually earns only 2000 €/month), supported the "gay couples municipal register", proposed the restoration of the city welfare for the poors and the unemployed, proposed the abolition of the city law for the programmed demolition of the rom people's shantytowns in Milan's suburbs (a law that forced the police to demolish the barracks leaving the people in the middle of the street, approved by Northern League in 2010), proposed the introduction of a reduced tariff of the public transport for the elders, the unemployed and the students.

Say what do you want... but this for me isn't the program of a fascist, and even now, after my expulsion, I still like the M5S

[Risottia]

...these "purges" are absolutely normal in the other parties like the Democratic Party and the People of Freedom...

Well not quite. PD, for instance, has an internal arbitration court, whose "judges" are elected during the party congresses, and which holds internal audits that can end up in an expulsion. And those audits can be appealed.
M5S has no interal arbitration court - just Grillo's will.

The M5S is a great party with a terrible leader, but when it'll be the time to do decisions, the base will decide, not Grillo

Er.
No.
When it will be the time to take decisions, the M5S MPs will decide.

[Thesan]

...these "purges" are absolutely normal in the other parties like the Democratic Party and the People of Freedom...

Well not quite. PD, for instance, has an internal arbitration court, whose "judges" are elected during the party congresses, and which holds internal audits that can end up in an expulsion. And those audits can be appealed.
M5S has no interal arbitration court - just Grillo's will.

And that's the only reason because I quit it... but the base is rebellious and now Grillo has to think 3 times before to do a thing like that again, even the city councillors have already said that they'll resign in mass if this happens again.

Er.
No.
When it will be the time to take decisions, the M5S MPs will decide.

Well I think no, because if not it'll mean that the party is exactly like the others... It think that the M5S needs only time (after all has been created only 1 year ago) but it'll create a forum-like site where everybody can discuss the law (it is the main principle of the M5S after all, even if I'm quite skeptical...)

[Socialist EU]

Well not quite. PD, for instance, has an internal arbitration court, whose "judges" are elected during the party congresses, and which holds internal audits that can end up in an expulsion. And those audits can be appealed.
M5S has no interal arbitration court - just Grillo's will.

And that's the only reason because I quit it... but the base is rebellious and now Grillo has to think 3 times before to do a thing like that again, even the city councillors have already said that they'll resign in mass if this happens again.

Er.
No.
When it will be the time to take decisions, the M5S MPs will decide.

Well I think no, because if not it'll mean that the party is exactly like the others... It think that the M5S needs only time (after all has been created only 1 year ago) but it'll create a forum-like site where everybody can discuss the law (it is the main principle of the M5S after all, even if I'm quite skeptical...)

Firstly, the internet polls have a low participation rate and secondly, given that people from left, centre and right,(including the far right) are part of this 'movementism, its inexperience in parliament doing deals, it has a strong chance of breaking up.

Bureaucratic organisations tend to crush their oppositions, just look at the SWP's special conference this month, to "reaffirm decisions". But at least with the SWP in Britain, it has working class politics, 5SM is there mostly for the small capitalists.

Say what do you want... but this for me isn't the program of a fascist, and even now, after my expulsion, I still like the M5S

Fine, enjoy it while it lasts, like with Egypt's Morsi I'll prepare my 'I told you so' speech.

[Empire of Vlissingen]

I think new election are necessary because to make a stable Coalition is too hard.

[Thesan]

the M5S after a closed meeting between the deputies and the senators has decided to REJECT the Bersani Government proposed by the Democratic Party:

Vito Crimi, chief of the M5S Senators has said 1 houra ago: "We will never support a government of the left, the same left that is the house of Bindi, Letta, Veltroni and D'Alema (notorious representatives), we will never support this, but we can perfectly support a TECHNICAL GOVERNMENT"

so... to avoid elections seems that the M5S can support a technical government between the indignado party and the Democratic Party... if the Left approves... Italy could have a very stable government for the end of the week!

[Risottia]

the M5S after a closed meeting between the deputies and the senators has decided to REJECT the Bersani Government proposed by the Democratic Party:

Vito Crimi, chief of the M5S Senators has said 1 houra ago: "We will never support a government of the left, the same left that is the house of Bindi, Letta, Veltroni and D'Alema (notorious representatives), we will never support this, but we can perfectly support a TECHNICAL GOVERNMENT"

so... to avoid elections seems that the M5S can support a technical government between the indignado party and the Democratic Party... if the Left approves... Italy could have a very stable government for the end of the week!

Not quite.

M5S will just go Belgian and leave the technical government that already is. That is the Monti cabinet.

[Socialist EU]

the M5S after a closed meeting between the deputies and the senators has decided to REJECT the Bersani Government proposed by the Democratic Party:

Vito Crimi, chief of the M5S Senators has said 1 houra ago: "We will never support a government of the left, the same left that is the house of Bindi, Letta, Veltroni and D'Alema (notorious representatives), we will never support this, but we can perfectly support a TECHNICAL GOVERNMENT"

so... to avoid elections seems that the M5S can support a technical government between the indignado party and the Democratic Party... if the Left approves... Italy could have a very stable government for the end of the week!

Not quite.

M5S will just go Belgian and leave the technical government that already is. That is the Monti cabinet.

It looks like there might be more elections soon, (roughly six months time).
Bersani ultimatum may bring new Italy election closer, Reuters
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/bersani-ultima ... iness.html

Edit/just as an aside:

http://www.etuc.org/a/10925

[Toiletia]

Risottia for King! Or President or something...NS ought to invade Italy, install Risottia as boss dude and then go for pizza and beer...

Don't you mean pizza and wine?