"Democracy" in South Korea at its finest.

[YellowApple]

I do!

Hugs for all enemies of the people!

Do enjoy your "freedom" for all its worth then when you're starving and homeless with only the desparate hope of working in a sweatshop for pennies an hour. But you can SAY whatever you want and maybe even put a dot on a piece of paper for which one of two corporate-bought-out fucks will lie through his campaign and then as always, do the bidding of his corporate masters. Sounds like a blast!

Last I checked, there are no "pennies and hour" salaries here in the United States, since there's a magical thing called "minimum wage" that prevents that from happening. Same goes for the majority of nations that aren't third-world hellholes.

This sort of post is quite iconic of what I was referring to. >__<

Then stop being a fucking preacher. You'll find no one talks like you in this forum. With Libertarians and Christian preachers being the exception.

Hey now, don't drag me into this preacher analogy.

Granted, I'm not a hardcore libertarian, but still.

[Grand Britannia]

I do!

Hugs for all enemies of the people!

Do enjoy your "freedom" for all its worth then when you're starving and homeless with only the desparate hope of working in a sweatshop for pennies an hour. But you can SAY whatever you want and maybe even put a dot on a piece of paper for which one of two corporate-bought-out fucks will lie through his campaign and then as always, do the bidding of his corporate masters. Sounds like a blast!

We have food stamps and minimum wage laws.

[Rio Cana]

Do enjoy your "freedom" for all its worth then when you're starving and homeless with only the desparate hope of working in a sweatshop for pennies an hour. But you can SAY whatever you want and maybe even put a dot on a piece of paper for which one of two corporate-bought-out fucks will lie through his campaign and then as always, do the bidding of his corporate masters. Sounds like a blast!

We have food stamps and minimum wage laws.

If food stamps is so good why do not politicians live on food stamps for one year. They know better. Food stamps provides not much. And depending on where you live, minimum wage sometimes does not do it. Especially, when rent is $1000 a month. Now if there were rent control but not many places have rent control.

[Songhia]

We have food stamps and minimum wage laws.

If food stamps is so good why do not politicians live on food stamps for one year. They know better. Food stamps provides not much. And depending on where you live, minimum wage sometimes does not do it. Especially, when rent is $1000 a month. Now if there were rent control but not many places have rent control.

My dear fellow, where in the world have politicians ever lived on food stamps? It's the same everywhere; they represent the dignity of the state, which means they get honey-cured ham and chauffeured cars. (In Islamic states, they obviously don't get honey-cured ham, but they get the finest sweets and candies that money can buy.) This is not a phenomenon endemic to capitalist states. Soviet apparatchiks would get some pretty excellent dachas to live in, Tito had a private yacht called the Galeb, and - most relevant to our current discussion - the high party members, military leaders, and bodyguard corps of North Korea live in utter splendor.

[Gauthier]

and - most relevant to our current discussion - the high party members, military leaders, and bodyguard corps of North Korea live in utter splendor.

Clearly imperialist jaywalking pigdog lies.

[TomKirk]

Essentially, it is the idea that one begins with a theory, derived from observation of the material world. In turn, this theory is applied to the processes of revolution. If it is successful, such theory becomes accepted; if it is not successful in the material world, such failure is analyzed, and from such observation, new theory is put forth that is again put through the process of testing in material reality. As such, self-criticism (internal, not external) and an objective analysis of present and past revolutionary movements is of critical importance to a successful revolutionary movement.

The rejection of external criticism seems counterproductive. Furthermore, wouldn't the lack of success of revolutionary ideals in America point to a problem with the theory?

Along with the failure of all Marxist-inspired states around the world except a couple pathetic hangers-on?

[YellowApple]

The rejection of external criticism seems counterproductive. Furthermore, wouldn't the lack of success of revolutionary ideals in America point to a problem with the theory?

Along with the failure of all Marxist-inspired states around the world except a couple pathetic hangers-on?

Or more accurately, their failure to remain actually Marxist and instead transform into oppressive totalitarian regimes that then fail except for a couple of pathetic hangers-on?

[Costa Alegria]

At the VERY least, North Korea has abolished private ownership of capital. As far as my ultimate goals are concerned, they are at least that step better than any nation who has not, whatever else may or may not be the case.

And yet, according to Joseon at least, it hasn't. Capital isn't necessarily financial. There are still privately owned farms and even before then, families were allocated a set amount of what they produced for private gain themselves at "farmer markets". In other words, a supposedly communist state tolerates a small but fruitful means of gaining capital for private use.

History is interpreted through the lens of the ideology of the ruling class of a society, always.

I agree with Mao's Theory-Practice-Theory Dialectic. As such, being self-critical, willing to recognize and correct one's faults, and similarly giving constructive criticism to one's comrades is absolutely necessary for the success of the revolution. Thus, internal criticism, amongst Marxist-Leninist for the goal of bettering the revolution is a VERY good thing.

Then why say otherwise? After all, you said that Marxist-Leninist adherents always keep their criticisms and disagreements internal.

However, public criticism only serves to create resentments, factionalism, and places more rhetoric in the hands of the enemy to be applied against the socialist movement as a whole and thus ought to be opposed.

So you think a successful revolution will come about if it's only those immediately around you who can determine where the revolution is heading and thus impose a potentially unpopular policy on a population? Isn't that against one of the guiding principles of Marxism at least?

THAT is a stance I don't think is quite meritted.

Well I don't really care whether or not it is merited. It is more or less an accurate description of the new, somewhat freer China (a term I use with the utmost reluctance seeing as it's still an authoritarian state).

While there is, indeed, a disturbing influx of privately owned capital to the nation.

Actually, it's more or less an outflow rather than an inflow of private and some public financial capital. More money is leaving China these days than coming into China in the form of wealthy Chinese businesses investing in overseas countries, primarily in Africa.

Their line of theory in what they are doing is not one I'm particularly fond of (Dengism), but the goal is still ostensibly one of a longterm establishment of a socialist society.

What the Communist Party says and what they are actually doing are two totally different things. In its current form, China is moving further and further away from what you would consider a "socialist" society.

[Ganos Lao]

I thought Dok said he wasn't going to bother talking to us anymore.

Also, I see CTALNH has arrived and, as would be expected, he's backing up Dokuritsu with even further nonsense. After all, he's a Stalinist, the sort who'd get himself purged. Stalin never cared much for sycophants.

What's the best about all this is that they act like try-hard Jacobins - yeah, because clearly you're both going to overthrow the "imperialist elite" of the world with a bunch of NSG posts.

Bravo, sirs, bravo.

[Ostroeuropa]

By god you are right good sir. this is a travesty of justice, we should vote the government out of office.
And what you are all hearing right now is a noticable lack of soldiers bursting through the door.

That democratic governments fuck up is expected. It's the entire rationale of democracy. Democracy allows us to redress our grievances.

North korea fucks up and the citizens have to take it.

[The Republic of Lanos]

I thought Dok said he wasn't going to bother talking to us anymore.

Also, I see CTALNH has arrived and, as would be expected, he's backing up Dokuritsu with even further nonsense.

What's the best about all this is that they act like try-hard Jacobins - yeah, because clearly you're both going to overthrow the "capitalist elite" of the world with a bunch of NSG posts. Bravo, sirs, bravo.

Why hasn't Hippo shown up yet? We need to get him on this.

[Ganos Lao]

I thought Dok said he wasn't going to bother talking to us anymore.

Also, I see CTALNH has arrived and, as would be expected, he's backing up Dokuritsu with even further nonsense.

What's the best about all this is that they act like try-hard Jacobins - yeah, because clearly you're both going to overthrow the "capitalist elite" of the world with a bunch of NSG posts. Bravo, sirs, bravo.

Why hasn't Hippo shown up yet? We need to get him on this.

With all this talk about Hippo, I'm surprised none of you have TG'd him about this thread.

Or maybe you just didn't perform the proper ritual, I don't know.

[Ganos Lao]

I'm "trolling" by ripping your argument to shreds like everyone else because they're based on propaganda? Yeah. I sit in some South Korean government building and live in its basement and swear allegiance to the evil capitalistic puppet regime and sing the Trolololol song everyday. You've exposed our plot and now we must be sent to the secret ROK camps.

[/sarcasm]

The funny part is that South Korea has killed hundreds of communists over the years in the name of freedom...

But who cares right?Communists kill people to enslave the world....

So when Stalin did it to all those innocent Soviet citizens, it was okay, right?

[Ganos Lao]

I'm just pointing out the utter hypocrisy in calling South Korea "free" when it undertakes much the same actions that other nations are criticized for, simply because it is an ally of the US.

But when we point out the utter hypocrisy of claiming South Korea disregards human rights when you undertake the promotion of the DPRK, which itself undertakes much of the same actions you whine about the West doing, such as disregarding human rights, you act like we're trolling and persecuting you.

[Costa Alegria]

Why hasn't Hippo shown up yet? We need to get him on this.

With all this talk about Hippo, I'm surprised none of you have TG'd him about this thread.

Or maybe you just didn't perform the proper ritual, I don't know.

We haven't sacrificed enough goats to bring back Reagan. Also, Dok says a lot of things that he doesn't necessarily follow through with.

[Ganos Lao]

It does, doesn't it? Let's name a couple of those...

Japan? Nope, not in Japan.
Germany, back in the 50s? No, they're the richest people in the world.
Turkey? Not by a long shot.
Colombia? Nawww, they're sitting at 10,000 dollars per capita.
Perhaps the other China? Nonsense, they're doing spectacularly.
Thailand? A bit of a basket case, sure, but they certainly get enough to eat.
South Korea? Don't make me laugh.

So who are you talking about?

How about my country under the dictatorship of 64'.

A Stalinist shouldn't be talking negatively about a dictatorship when their idol is practically synonymous with the word.

[Gauthier]

Why hasn't Hippo shown up yet? We need to get him on this.

With all this talk about Hippo, I'm surprised none of you have TG'd him about this thread.

Or maybe you just didn't perform the proper ritual, I don't know.

Oooh, a fanboys deathmatch.

[Ganos Lao]

With all this talk about Hippo, I'm surprised none of you have TG'd him about this thread.

Or maybe you just didn't perform the proper ritual, I don't know.

Oooh, a fanboys deathmatch.

GWO vs Dok

Hippo vs CTALNH

Whatcha gonna do, NSG, when Fanboymania runs wild on you?

Order the PPV now!

[Quebec and Atlantic Canada]

Oooh, a fanboys deathmatch.

GWO vs Dok

Hippo vs CTALNH

Whatcha gonna do, NSG, when Fanboymania runs wild on you?

Order the PPV now!

DO IT DO IT DO IT

[Marcurix]

Not an uncommon position, and probably not what most on the forum have a problem with.

Note that, from my position, the rest logically follows from this.

If it is logical or not really depends on your reasoning.

The problem starts here, I think, for most people. What you interpret as a "strong, continuous, militant stand against the capitalist-imperialist system", others see as an oppressive, aggressive state run by a a family and upper class that lives in luxury as millions of North Koreans starve.

Which is indeed how the western media has historically portrayed the Soviet Union, PRC, Vietnam, Cuba, and any other state standing up for the interests of the working people of the world. At this point, I really don't buy the images put forth by those admittedly my enemy (western media) any further.

Well, the problem there is it isn't just the western media, is it? There has been plenty of debate in academic circles on the conditions, and more than a few of those stories are considered at least somewhat accurate. While you may consider the "western media" your enemy, dismissing them outright with nothing to back them up starts to push your argument into unreasonable territory. You could argue bias I suppose, but again you have to at least back that up with something substantive.

The nuclear program doesn't really help anyone.

Not as if Western nations don't have nuclear weaponry; and from my position, it is a deterrent to invasion.

Or a do as we say weapon. Not so different really form all those western nations imposing their will on people.

Hey, kind of like what seems to be happening in North Korea.

Firstly, North Korea hardly "propagates" suffering around the world, as, to my knowledge, they are not in the habit of occupying and overthrowing other sovereign nations for their own interests. In fact, their ideology is much the opposite.

And for the other bit, see two above.

Again you need something substantive to prove there aren't such things going on in N.Korea.

Never by the leaders of North Korea, I can't help but notice.

Kim Il Sung, Suryong-nim was himself for much of his life a resistance fighter against both Japanese and US imperialism. Kim Jong Il and Kim Jong Eun both spent much of their life serving in the military. I don't particularly know how you hope to deny any of this.

NERVUN seems to have dealt with that for me.

Not really sure you alone could speak of the working class a world over.

Attempting to establish capitalism or overthrow a nation fighting imperialism is harmful to the working class of workers everywhere, as a matter of definition.

Your definition. Not everyone's.

So killing people with different opinions is OK with you? Not exactly the moral high ground here.

If those "positions" involve the establishment of a system I view morally comparable to slavery, yes. Let alone the fact that they likely would want the same for me and my allies in the DPRK government. I support the revolution taking whatever means necessary to defeat its opposition.

Even if that meant genocide, keeping those people poor and underfoot?

Unless they are seen as a threat to the revolution, apparently.

It is tragic when workers cannot realize their own interests. Every effort must be made to reach out to them; but yes, I am of no illusion that some members of the working class will, irrationally, take up arms with the enemy. And at such a point, they must be treated as such.

I know whats best, even if you don't.So do as I say or die.

That really doesn't speak like something of the people, more like a dictatorship.

The lack of openness to change doesn't really help your case.

A peaceful resolution to open warfare would make such openness much easier.

Go tell N.Korea that.

So death to North Korea who seems to be oppressing a lot of its people?

It is not "oppression" to use whatever means necessary to stop degenerates from re-establishing the capitalist system.

So it's not bad when people you agree with do it.

I really hope you start to see why people may have a problem with your views. You are being more than a little hypocritical.

[Calimera II]

GWO vs Dok

Hippo vs CTALNH

Whatcha gonna do, NSG, when Fanboymania runs wild on you?

Order the PPV now!

DO IT DO IT DO IT

OOC: This woukd probably mean a war as horrible as WO iI.

[Rio Cana]

If food stamps is so good why do not politicians live on food stamps for one year. They know better. Food stamps provides not much. And depending on where you live, minimum wage sometimes does not do it. Especially, when rent is $1000 a month. Now if there were rent control but not many places have rent control.

My dear fellow, where in the world have politicians ever lived on food stamps? It's the same everywhere; they represent the dignity of the state, which means they get honey-cured ham and chauffeured cars. (In Islamic states, they obviously don't get honey-cured ham, but they get the finest sweets and candies that money can buy.) This is not a phenomenon endemic to capitalist states. Soviet apparatchiks would get some pretty excellent dachas to live in, Tito had a private yacht called the Galeb, and - most relevant to our current discussion - the high party members, military leaders, and bodyguard corps of North Korea live in utter splendor.

Actually, I just found out the Mayor of the City of Newark New Jersey lived on $30 dollars for one week last december 2012. Seems in NJ. that is what a person on Food Stamps gets a week.

Story - http://rt.com/usa/news/mayor-food-booker-week-287/

This is the same mayor that went into a building that was on fire to rescue some people.
Story - http://news.yahoo.com/newark-mayor-cory ... 00678.html

[Ganos Lao]

Which is indeed how the western media has historically portrayed the Soviet Union, PRC, Vietnam, Cuba, and any other state standing up for the interests of the working people of the world. At this point, I really don't buy the images put forth by those admittedly my enemy (western media) any further.

The issue here, though, is that Dok has never once provided evidence that critics of the DPRK are in the wrong. He merely says "oh, them, they're part of the enemy" without proving it. He has never been in the DPRK, but acts like he knows more than people who've experienced it. How can he expect anyone to take him seriously?

It is not "oppression" to use whatever means necessary to stop degenerates from re-establishing the capitalist system.

So when they rape women in the gulags, is that a just act because those women are "degenerates" who wants to "re-establish the capitalist system," Dok?

[Conservative Idealism]

...What? South Korea and North Korea are enemy nations in a 50-year-long ceasefire. Why the hell wouldn't the guy be arrested for going to North Korea without approval?

[Gauthier]

Which is indeed how the western media has historically portrayed the Soviet Union, PRC, Vietnam, Cuba, and any other state standing up for the interests of the working people of the world. At this point, I really don't buy the images put forth by those admittedly my enemy (western media) any further.

The issue here, though, is that Dok has never once provided evidence that critics of the DPRK are in the wrong. He merely says "oh, them, they're part of the enemy" without proving it. He has never been in the DPRK, but acts like he knows more than people who've experienced it. How can he expect anyone to take him seriously?

That's a symptom of fanboyism. Claiming to know more about something than people who actually experienced it. Like claiming to be more American than actual American citizens for instance.

It is not "oppression" to use whatever means necessary to stop degenerates from re-establishing the capitalist system.

So when they rape women in the gulags, is that a just act because that woman is a "degenerate" who wants to "re-establish the capitalist system," Dok?

It's the proleteriat freeing the capitalist slut's vagina for the people obviously.