Sexual Orientation & The Military

[Bryn Shander]

I can't believe you just said that. Are you serious? That's a bad,bad generalisation. Wait- if you've never been gay, how can you comment?

I've known countless homosexuals over the years, and very few of them were the type to join the military. Once again this is a matter of experience. This is something that you lack as a fifteen year old.

[Vervaria]

Where's the evidence that it wouldn't?

Where's the evidence your not a commie spy? Seriously, is that your argument?

The difference is that as it stands, the homophobes are blissfully ignorant of who these people are, meaning they can reasonably tell themselves that those people are straight and so there's no problem.

So discrimination is fine if it makes bigots feel good?

I don't know, it seems reasonable that government bigotry might be acceptable, if not ideal, when what's at stake are the security of our property and lives. I could see how that would be an acceptable trade-off in that situation.

Completely disagree, again. Discrimination by the government should never be acceptable, even in the interests of "national security", especially when the threat that these people are supposed to represent is ill-defined at best.

[Colonic Immigration]

I can't believe you just said that. Are you serious? That's a bad,bad generalisation. Wait- if you've never been gay, how can you comment?

I've known countless homosexuals over the years, and very few of them were the type to join the military. Once again this is a matter of experience. This is something that you lack as a fifteen year old.

You know nothing about me. I'm 15- of course I know gays,bis and lesbians. It isn't the 50ies anymore.

[Eignes]

As one in the US military, I actually do know what I am talking about.

DADT is not a ban on homosexuals in any form. Additionally, homosexuals do very little to affect unit cohesion. Most, though certainly not all, homosexuals are already known. Does it seem too fantastic to anyone here that you can tell who is gay without them having to say it to your face? While there are some commanders who will immediately discharge any persons engaging in homosexual behavior, it is far more common to not actually care about it.

It is my view, and the view of most soldiers I believe, that open service in US forces is just a matter of time. I personally have no problem with out, though most people are happy with DADT. Homosexuality makes them uncomfortable, and DADT is an easy way to make it a non-issue.

[Vervaria]

You know nothing about me. I'm 15- of course I know gays,bis and lesbians. It isn't the 50ies anymore.

15-year olds are as entitled to opinions as anyone else.

[Bywhan]

I have served in the military and I have served with several gay members and gay's do cause problems. They themselves don't cause problems but their sexuality does. It's one thing when you go to another guy in your unit and hang out just the two of you, drinking a beer, watching a game, playing a video game, but now make it where one of them is gay unless you know and trust the guy a lot you will always be more guarded around him then you are with the non gay men. You will trust the other men quicker than a man who you think might be trying to hit on you. You will not trust the gay man as much. And trust is the ONE thing that ANY unit going into combat needs.

For example:

Private A pats Private B's shoulder. Private A is not gay so private B does not think he is flirting with him and can work with him.

Now Private C pats Private B's shoulder. Private C is gay causing Private B to think he is flirting with him. Since Private B is no gay he begins to avoid Private C causing problems with the unit because B refuses to work/fight with C.

Gay's do break up unit cohesion very much as do women. I have no problem with women in the military but they need to split the units based on sex. I worked in an male/female unit and at least once a week there was a minor and sometimes major problems with "Private D is dating Private E. Last week she was dating Private F" So now E and F can't work together because of bad blood between them. I'm not saying this was the case with all of them but a majority of this happened.

I know some of you are too young to serve in the military but you are the future. So voice your opinion. It's what guys like me fight for.

[Bluth Corporation]

Where's the evidence that it wouldn't?

Where's the evidence your not a commie spy? Seriously, is that your argument?

No; did you seriously not see that my point is that we don't know whether or not allowing homosexuals would adversely affect the effectiveness of the military, that there are valid reasons to think either possibility might be true, that this is too serious a matter to make on ideology alone or assumptions alone, and that therefore this is a matter that needs to be researched and considered?

Are you really that dense and deficient in critical thinking skills?

So discrimination is fine if it makes bigots feel good?

See above.

Completely disagree, again. Discrimination by the government should never be acceptable, even in the interests of "national security", especially when the threat that these people are supposed to represent is ill-defined at best.

That's a reasonable argument; different people are willing to make different tradeoffs, after all. The problem is that you don't seem to recognize that there are reasonable arguments supporting the opposite conclusion.

[Bryn Shander]

You know nothing about me. I'm 15- of course I know gays,bis and lesbians. It isn't the 50ies anymore.

15-year olds are as entitled to opinions as anyone else.

Oh? I guess that's why they can vote then, isn't it?

Oh wait...

[Colonic Immigration]

I have served in the military and I have served with several gay members and gay's do cause problems. They themselves don't cause problems but their sexuality does. It's one thing when you go to another guy in your unit and hang out just the two of you, drinking a beer, watching a game, playing a video game, but now make it where one of them is gay unless you know and trust the guy a lot you will always be more guarded around him then you are with the non gay men. You will trust the other men quicker than a man who you think might be trying to hit on you. You will not trust the gay man as much. And trust is the ONE thing that ANY unit going into combat needs.

For example:

Private A pats Private B's shoulder. Private A is not gay so private B does not think he is flirting with him and can work with him.

Now Private C pats Private B's shoulder. Private C is gay causing Private B to think he is flirting with him. Since Private B is no gay he begins to avoid Private C causing problems with the unit because B refuses to work/fight with C.

Gay's do break up unit cohesion very much as do women. I have no problem with women in the military but they need to split the units based on sex. I worked in an male/female unit and at least once a week there was a minor and sometimes major problems with "Private D is dating Private E. Last week she was dating Private F" So now E and F can't work together because of bad blood between them. I'm not saying this was the case with all of them but a majority of this happened.

I know some of you are too young to serve in the military but you are the future. So voice your opinion. It's what guys like me fight for.

Just cos I guy fancies another it doesn't mean that they can't fight together. I'm still good friends with one of my mates after he came on to me.

[Colonic Immigration]

You know nothing about me. I'm 15- of course I know gays,bis and lesbians. It isn't the 50ies anymore.

15-year olds are as entitled to opinions as anyone else.

Oh? I guess that's why they can vote then, isn't it?

Oh wait...

So? One vote means fuck all.

[Bryn Shander]

Gay's do break up unit cohesion very much as do women. I have no problem with women in the military but they need to split the units based on sex. I worked in an male/female unit and at least once a week there was a minor and sometimes major problems with "Private D is dating Private E. Last week she was dating Private F" So now E and F can't work together because of bad blood between them. I'm not saying this was the case with all of them but a majority of this happened.

Not only that, but remember what happens to women after a few weeks in the field with only a washcloth and canteen for personal hygiene. Not to mention that bad blood attracts insects like mad.

[Mt Id]

You know nothing about me. I'm 15- of course I know gays,bis and lesbians. It isn't the 50ies anymore.

15-year olds are as entitled to opinions as anyone else.

Opinions yes. Spouting them as fact, however...not so much.

[Colonic Immigration]

You know nothing about me. I'm 15- of course I know gays,bis and lesbians. It isn't the 50ies anymore.

15-year olds are as entitled to opinions as anyone else.

Opinions yes. Spouting them as fact, however...not so much.

When did I do that?

[Ravea]

Women and homosexuals should be allowed in all branches of the military.

If we don't let people fight, especially if they want to fight, then people like me will have to fight. And that's when we lose all wars forever. Gays and women in the military work fine is several countries; i don't see why it should be any different here.

[Mt Id]

Everyone would be similar if enough gays joined.

And who cares if a couple of homophobes don't want gays there-fuck em. They're scum.

And as I've said if the army was more gay-friendly, more would join.

and that's just in this thread so far.

[Bryn Shander]

Women and homosexuals should be allowed in all branches of the military.

If we don't let people fight, especially if they want to fight, then people like me will have to fight. And that's when we lose all wars forever. Gays and women in the military work fine is several countries; i don't see why it should be any different here.

We actually use our military. That's why.

[Colonic Immigration]

Everyone would be similar if enough gays joined.

And who cares if a couple of homophobes don't want gays there-fuck em. They're scum.

And as I've said if the army was more gay-friendly, more would join.

and that's just in this thread so far.

Everyone would be the same someone said-without gays. I say they'd stioll be similar if gays were there-we're all human.

Homophobes are scum.

[Colonic Immigration]

Women and homosexuals should be allowed in all branches of the military.

If we don't let people fight, especially if they want to fight, then people like me will have to fight. And that's when we lose all wars forever. Gays and women in the military work fine is several countries; i don't see why it should be any different here.

We actually use our military. That's why.

Foe no good reason.

[Mt Id]

Everyone would be the same someone said-without gays. I say they'd stioll be similar if gays were there-we're all human.

Homophobes are scum.

I'm sorry if you think gays are the same as non-gays even though they are obviously two different types of people.

homophobes are scum in your opinion. That doesn't make it a fact.

[Ravea]

Women and homosexuals should be allowed in all branches of the military.

If we don't let people fight, especially if they want to fight, then people like me will have to fight. And that's when we lose all wars forever. Gays and women in the military work fine is several countries; i don't see why it should be any different here.

We actually use our military. That's why.

Aren't we facing pretty serious recruiting shortages? Last I heard, the whole "Don't ask, Don't tell" policy was responsible for the expulsion of almost 12,000 soldiers from the military. If someone is really willing to risk their lives for the country they love, let them do it. If you want to put them into separate units, a la Sacred Band of Thebes, that's fine-just let them fight.

Seriously, people using the argument that gays mess up unit cohesion sound like the people fifty and sixty years ago who were saying blacks mess up unit cohesion.

[Colonic Immigration]

Everyone would be the same someone said-without gays. I say they'd stioll be similar if gays were there-we're all human.

Homophobes are scum.

I'm sorry if you think gays are the same as non-gays even though they are obviously two different types of people.

homophobes are scum in your opinion. That doesn't make it a fact.

No, they are the same. Your sexuality does not make you different from other people of different sexualities.

They are scum-it's a fact.

[KasDaya]

The military in the United States has become an elite society, a society where only few survive. In a survey taken in 1990, the United States population on a whole is believed to consist of 13-15% Homosexuals. This figure is believed to have a margin of error on the upward swing due to the fact that most homosexuals are still "afraid" of their sexuality and the social taboos it carries along with it. With so many Homosexuals in the United States, how can the military prove its exclusion policy against Homosexuals correct and moral?

Through the "long standing tradition and policy," says one Admiral of the U.S. Navy. But is it fair or correct? That is the question posed on Capitol Hill even today, as politicians battle through a virtual minefield of tradition and equal rights. Historically, support for one's military was a way to show one's patriotism, if not a pre-requisite for being patriotic at all. Society has given the military a great deal of latitude in running its own affairs, principally due to society's acknowledgment that the military needs such space in order to run effectively.

The military, in turn, has adopted policies which, for the most part, have lead to very successful military ventures, which served to continually renew society's faith in the military.

Though some of the reasons that were used to justify it at the time have been debunked since-that homosexual service members in sensitive positions could be blackmailed, for instance ("Gays and the Military" 54)-the policy was largely an extension of the military's long-standing policy against homosexual acts. At the time, the prevailing attitude was that homosexuality was a medical/psychiatric condition, and thus the military sought to align itself with this school of thought. Rather than just continuing to punish service members for individual acts of sodomy, the military took what was thought to be a kinder position-excluding those people who were inclined to commit such acts in the first place, thus avoiding stiffer penalties (including prison sentences) for actually committing them.


If you want sources, I'll give you all the sources you want.

In over all, the DADT policy isn't really a ban, it's more or less a guideline saying "If your CO doesn't ask it, then DONT VOLUNTEER THE INFORMATION". If you've ever gone through MEPS with a recruiter, that's the FIRST thing they tell you. "IF they dont ask if you're gay, dont tell them you're gay, if they don't ask if you're a druggy, don't tell them, etc etc etc."

I have no set ground on this issue, being as I'm not a 100% sure what the outcomes would be, and being that I am a military wife, I can't make assumptions and claims without FIRST thinking about how such an action would affect myself and my husband, as well as our family.

[Mt Id]

Everyone would be the same someone said-without gays. I say they'd stioll be similar if gays were there-we're all human.

Homophobes are scum.

I'm sorry if you think gays are the same as non-gays even though they are obviously two different types of people.

homophobes are scum in your opinion. That doesn't make it a fact.

No, they are the same. Your sexuality does not make you different from other people of different sexualities.

They are scum-it's a fact.

*sigh*

Ok arguing with a 15 year old obviously goes no where.

[Absolvability]

Well, to be frank, I couldn't be bothered to read all 41 posts. I normally only participate in the WA debates and all... and that keeps me pretty busy >_< Uhm, but I'm familiar with this issue, and wanted to add/say a few things.

I have served in the military and I have served with several gay members and gay's do cause problems. They themselves don't cause problems but their sexuality does. It's one thing when you go to another guy in your unit and hang out just the two of you, drinking a beer, watching a game, playing a video game, but now make it where one of them is gay unless you know and trust the guy a lot you will always be more guarded around him then you are with the non gay men. You will trust the other men quicker than a man who you think might be trying to hit on you. You will not trust the gay man as much. And trust is the ONE thing that ANY unit going into combat needs.

Considering the Don't Ask/Don't Tell policy, don't you think it's highly probable that you served with gays and didn't even know it? That, in fact, until you are TOLD that a person is gay you really have no way of telling? Barring, naturally, certain people that are flamboyant with their homosexuality (who are VERY unlikely to join the Armed Services, don't you think?) THEREFORE, the quote above is idiotic. It explains perfectly why the problem is NOT gays, but is intolerance.

It is a silly idea that sexual preference in any way contributes to sexual appetite. If you don't run around worried that every woman you meet is going to jump your bones why would you worry about a gay man? Or, more likely, you don't worry about women because you HOPE they'll jump your bones. So again, you're just being prejudiced and silly.

It is the military's duty (and they do it quite well, I believe,) to MAKE soldiers. This requires bravery and discipline-- neither of which are inherently hetero qualities. 'nuff said.

[Colonic Immigration]

*sigh*

Ok arguing with a 15 year old obviously goes no where.

In this argument yes. Cause you wont change my opinion.