Do you consider yourself to be a feminist, and why?

[Gravlen]

It is our job as men to protect our families and people in times of crisis.

So, in other words...

"Even though women can take steps to protect themselves, the primary responsibility for protection will probably always belong to men. Women will thus only have as much freedom as their men are willing and capable of guaranteeing them."

Do you agree with that?

I have a 2 year old daughter and I will be damned is she joins the military. She may become the Govenor of Georgia, a famous writer or a leading scientist but not a soldier.

So you, as the patriarch, will have the final say as to what your daughter can do even as an adult? She cannot so something you don't approve of?

And if the man in the house has his wife crawling under the house to fix plumbing then there is something wrong.

So something has gone wrong if a woman works as a plumber... Or with her hands, apparently?

I honestly believe that women get the better part in the deal here. So this wave of feminism to me is just unneeded.

As were the previous ones, I'm guessing.

OK, All I said was men and women are unique. I am sure if I stopped opening the car door for my wife. Told her to fix the sink. Made her go take my job working in the extreme hot, cold outside weather and repair the roof. Then she walks in sweating, bleeding from cuts and dag tired she would indeed have a problem with me.

So would I, if someone thought they could make me do a job I didn't have the skills to do. Interestingly it seems like you think it's only because she would have a problem because she would be tired, sweating, and bleeding from cuts - and not because you made her do it.

In fact I do all of these things so she will never have to and after four years of marriage I still pick her up and walk across puddles so she wont wet her shoes. I do this because I am the man in our house and she is the women.

But... why? Even so, why?

[Nailed to the Perch]

It's a suit made of cats. *nod*

I hate every single fucking one of you.

Liar, liar, catsuit-pants on fire!

[Neo Art]

So, in other words...

"Even though women can take steps to protect themselves, the primary responsibility for protection will probably always belong to men. Women will thus only have as much freedom as their men are willing and capable of guaranteeing them."

Do you agree with that?

IT'S A TRAP!

[Neo Art]

I hate every single fucking one of you.

Liar, liar, catsuit-pants on fire!

ESPECIALLY you right now

[Miencraft]

Feminism makes no sense, because it totally ignores crimes committed by women against men for no reason other than the fact that they're men. It's a totally hypocritical ideology and really should just die out already.

[Goppa]

I am a man, so of course I'm a feminist.

[Ifreann]

Feminism makes no sense, because it totally ignores crimes committed by women against men for no reason other than the fact that they're men. It's a totally hypocritical ideology and really should just die out already.

No thanks, but we appreciate your concern.

[The Emerald Dawn]

I am a man, so of course I'm a feminist.

The single most idiotic statement you can make.

Drives me bananas. No, being a man does not make you a feminist any more than being a human makes you a rapist.

[Rentarium]

Feminism makes no sense, because it totally ignores crimes committed by women against men for no reason other than the fact that they're men. It's a totally hypocritical ideology and really should just die out already.

What does that have to do with anything?

[EnragedMaldivians]

Feminism makes no sense, because it totally ignores crimes committed by women against men for no reason other than the fact that they're men. It's a totally hypocritical ideology and really should just die out already.

Let's frame this post and use it as an example to show the "tone it down brigade" of why sometimes a polite, point by point rebuttal is nowhere near as appropriate as scorn and mockery.

I mean really, what on earth are you even talking about?

[The Emerald Dawn]

Feminism makes no sense, because it totally ignores crimes committed by women against men for no reason other than the fact that they're men. It's a totally hypocritical ideology and really should just die out already.

Let's frame this post and use it as an example to show the "tone it down brigade" of why sometimes a polite, point by point rebuttal is nowhere near as appropriate as scorn and mockery.

I mean really, what on earth are you even talking about?

Are you familiar with the GIGO programming issue? As a member of the "tone it down brigade", I can safely state that this was a case of Garbage In.

[Dieu Vous Benisse]

Feminism makes no sense, because it totally ignores crimes committed by women against men for no reason other than the fact that they're men. It's a totally hypocritical ideology and really should just die out already.

Violence against women by men isn't even comparable to those against men.

[Nailed to the Perch]

maybe Nailed to the Perch isn't the chosen prophet and avatar of the Great Vagina Goddess(blessed be Her Holy Labia).

Indeed I am not. Have you seen the ceremonial regalia the Vagina Prophetess has to wear? Far too bulky for my tastes. I stick to the lesser church of the Small But Mighty Clitoris Goddess, which only requires that one wear a pink hat.

[Neo Art]

I stick to the lesser church of the Small But Mighty Clitoris Goddess

I always said religion was make believe.

[Gravlen]

I stick to the lesser church of the Small But Mighty Clitoris Goddess

I always said religion was make believe.

Just because you can't find it, doesn't mean it's not real...

[Goppa]

I am a man, so of course I'm a feminist.

The single most idiotic statement you can make.

Drives me bananas. No, being a man does not make you a feminist any more than being a human makes you a rapist.

Why, thank you!
And no, of course being a man doesn't make one automatically a feminist. But does being a man mean, regardless of your sexuality and wether or not you are endowed with the most basic scraps of empathy or morals, that you should be a feminist?
Yes. Yes it does. If you are a gay male there are, at least to my mind, few things more toxic to your community than the good old Patriarchy, so it just common sense to ally yourself with others who have loads of motivation and experience fighting it. Even if you are a selfish misogynistic ass. If you are a heterosexual male, without even the slightest interest in social justice for it's own sake...Well aside from the possible benefits for you personally in abolishing restrictive genderroles...You like to love women. Why would you try to harm them?
And even if all of that isn't enough for you, what about your relatives, coworkes, friends etc.?

I'm quite aware that I've probably put far too much effort into this, because if that would be what's really needed to convince someone to join the dreaded manginas, as those charming MRAs apparently like to call men with a modicum of selfrespect and consciene,
fuck 'em. They wouldn't be worth the effort. But the basic point, des Pudels Kern, is one worth reiterating I think. There is no reason for a man not to be feminist.


Well, besides sheer insecurity, greed, paranoia or general mean-spiritedness I supposse. Anyway: Be a man, be a feminist!

[Nailed to the Perch]

I stick to the lesser church of the Small But Mighty Clitoris Goddess

I always said religion was make believe.

...dude, don't lob me such total softballs. I am overwhelmed by possible punchlines to the point where I can't actually make any of them because I'm too busy going, "shit, I need to work a reference to 'try spending more time on your knees, hur hur' in there, too."

[The Emerald Dawn]

The single most idiotic statement you can make.

Drives me bananas. No, being a man does not make you a feminist any more than being a human makes you a rapist.

Why, thank you!
And no, of course being a man doesn't make one automatically a feminist. But does being a man mean, regardless of your sexuality and wether or not you are endowed with the most basic scraps of empathy or morals, that you should be a feminist?
Yes. Yes it does. If you are a gay male there are, at least to my mind, few things more toxic to your community than the good old Patriarchy, so it just common sense to ally yourself with others who have loads of motivation and experience fighting it. Even if you are a selfish misogynistic ass. If you are a heterosexual male, without even the slightest interest in social justice for it's own sake...Well aside from the possible benefits for you personally in abolishing restrictive genderroles...You like to love women. Why would you try to harm them?
And even if all of that isn't enough for you, what about your relatives, coworkes, friends etc.?

I'm quite aware that I've probably put far too much effort into this, because if that would be what's really needed to convince someone to join the dreaded manginas, as those charming MRAs apparently like to call men with a modicum of selfrespect and consciene,
fuck 'em. They wouldn't be worth the effort. But the basic point, des Pudels Kern, is one worth reiterating I think. There is no reason for a man not to be feminist.


Well, besides sheer insecurity, greed, paranoia or general mean-spiritedness I supposse. Anyway: Be a man, be a feminist!

No, being a "man" means absolutely fuck all. It means that you were born with a pipe between your legs and that you identify with your biological plumbing. That's it.

[Alison W]

It is our job as men to protect our families and people in times of crisis.

So, in other words...

"Even though women can take steps to protect themselves, the primary responsibility for protection will probably always belong to men. Women will thus only have as much freedom as their men are willing and capable of guaranteeing them."

Do you agree with that?

I have a 2 year old daughter and I will be damned is she joins the military. She may become the Govenor of Georgia, a famous writer or a leading scientist but not a soldier.

So you, as the patriarch, will have the final say as to what your daughter can do even as an adult? She cannot so something you don't approve of?

And if the man in the house has his wife crawling under the house to fix plumbing then there is something wrong.

So something has gone wrong if a woman works as a plumber... Or with her hands, apparently?

I honestly believe that women get the better part in the deal here. So this wave of feminism to me is just unneeded.

As were the previous ones, I'm guessing.

OK, All I said was men and women are unique. I am sure if I stopped opening the car door for my wife. Told her to fix the sink. Made her go take my job working in the extreme hot, cold outside weather and repair the roof. Then she walks in sweating, bleeding from cuts and dag tired she would indeed have a problem with me.

So would I, if someone thought they could make me do a job I didn't have the skills to do. Interestingly it seems like you think it's only because she would have a problem because she would be tired, sweating, and bleeding from cuts - and not because you made her do it.

In fact I do all of these things so she will never have to and after four years of marriage I still pick her up and walk across puddles so she wont wet her shoes. I do this because I am the man in our house and she is the women.

But... why? Even so, why?

I am so sorry for my husband's posts. He really didnt mean any harm. He mentioned this website he found a few days ago and said it was interesting. So I decided to try it with him, although its not really my thing.

Dillin is blunt, hot headed, hard headed and lacks tact. English was not his best subject growing up so I understand why he did not word his post the way he planned. What he meant about our daughter is that he will be very upset if she joined the military. Heaven knows he would not be able to stop her especially if she is a thick headed as him. And yes he believes a man should protect women from harm in any situation. Such as women and children get rescued first kinda thing. And I would be very upset if he tried to make me do half of what he does. He just worded that statement poorly. And he carries me across puddles because he knows that my shoes cost more than than all his his clothes. And I still love him for it.

It may be hard to tell but he is a really sweet and thoughtful man. He works two jobs and is a member in the Georgia State Defense Force and sacrifices so much for our family. He just tries to be so much like his father.

Again I am so sorry. And I will get him tonight for cursing.

[Ethel mermania]

Why, thank you!
And no, of course being a man doesn't make one automatically a feminist. But does being a man mean, regardless of your sexuality and wether or not you are endowed with the most basic scraps of empathy or morals, that you should be a feminist?
Yes. Yes it does. If you are a gay male there are, at least to my mind, few things more toxic to your community than the good old Patriarchy, so it just common sense to ally yourself with others who have loads of motivation and experience fighting it. Even if you are a selfish misogynistic ass. If you are a heterosexual male, without even the slightest interest in social justice for it's own sake...Well aside from the possible benefits for you personally in abolishing restrictive genderroles...You like to love women. Why would you try to harm them?
And even if all of that isn't enough for you, what about your relatives, coworkes, friends etc.?

I'm quite aware that I've probably put far too much effort into this, because if that would be what's really needed to convince someone to join the dreaded manginas, as those charming MRAs apparently like to call men with a modicum of selfrespect and consciene,
fuck 'em. They wouldn't be worth the effort. But the basic point, des Pudels Kern, is one worth reiterating I think. There is no reason for a man not to be feminist.


Well, besides sheer insecurity, greed, paranoia or general mean-spiritedness I supposse. Anyway: Be a man, be a feminist!

No, being a "man" means absolutely fuck all. It means that you were born with a pipe between your legs and that you identify with your biological plumbing. That's it.

and you can write your name in the snow.


i am a man, and i am not a feminist. a feminist advocates for women. its a fine job, someone has to do it. its not my job.

[Salandriagado]

For example I beieve their are certain jobs and activities that women should not do.

Name five. Then I'll give you five women that do them better than you.

I do not belive women should hold jobs such as coal mining or hard labor where they are forced to sweat and stress in the hot sun covered in grease and dirt.

Job. Forced. These are not the same concept. Some of them want to, who are you to stop them?

I also do not believe that women should hold overly dangerous jobs such as any military combat role.

Why the fuck not?

Again tey have men for that.

And? They are just as good at it. Why can't they do it?

It is our job as men to protect our families and people in times of crisis.

No it fucking isn't.

I have a 2 year old daughter and I will be damned is she joins the military.

And how are you planning on stopping her if she decides that is what she wants to do? Other than decades of indoctrination, of course.

And if the man in the house has his wife crawling under the house to fix plumbing then there is something wrong.

Because obviously, every woman in the world is married and women are completely incapable of looking after themselves without a man to protect them? Put your power fantasy back in your pants.

[Cannot think of a name]

And I will get him tonight for cursing.

What you two get on with in the bedroom is none of our business.



Moving on...


For a board that absolutely thrills at accusing one another of strawman fallacies regardless of how appropriate they are or in fact whether or not simply naming a fallacy is a legit argument, when presented with a blatant one we seem to take it at face value.

Because so far, in the times I've dipped into the thread, there have been two sides.

Yes, I support feminism because gender equality simply makes sense and is the right thing to do.

and

No, because feminism is somehow about women getting over on men or crushing men etc etc.

What keeps happening is the people against feminism get to create their own definitions of what they think feminism is, decide that their definition is...forgive me...definitive and will argue against those that have given the traditional, non-made up definition of feminism as if they adhere to the made up version.

It's a clever bit. You don't have to defend something like male privilege or the statistical and systemic disadvantages women have and why you think nothing should be done about those, not if you instead decide that the battle line is the word feminism and what it means. If you can spend your time insisting that the word feminism means all these other things, you avoid having to answer for why you don't support gender equality, why you want to limit opportunities for women, or in fact why you would be afraid of any movement that would work towards these goals.

But...if you make it a boogeyman, you go and find the most extreme case, or more often just fucking make it up with the yellow journalist conceit of 'all I see' or 'all you ever hear', then you can say with a detached air...these people, and by association everyone who has ever called themselves by the same term, they're crazy. They want all these things and therefore the entire argument is invalid.

And how do we get this idea? By people constantly...but vaguely...insisting it exists until the wishy-washy middle grounders decided that the pox is on both their houses, that there is enough noise to justify just throwing your hands up.

Nevermind that at its core it has, is, and always will be about gender equality...and yes, it's still called feminism because that's the gender that's unequal...pretend it means something new, say it often enough that the mashed potatoes take form.

If you're nice and desperate, and you don't understand things like systemics and proportion, you can run around and find some wrong that, if taken in proportion is small, and decide because this wrong exists, it invalidates the entire movement, regardless of how tangential the connection is. It can't possibly be that it is either a separate issue that also needs to be addressed but does in no way comment on the larger issue at hand OR, and this is my favorite, actually a side effect of gender inequality and would be made better if the larger problems were fixed.

In short (too late) you don't get to decide what the opposing argument is made, you don't get to define their terms, and you don't get to dictate their goals in order to dismiss their ideas. You want to do that, go argue with your imaginary friends.

[United States of Dixieland (Ancient)]

For example I beieve their are certain jobs and activities that women should not do.

Name five. Then I'll give you five women that do them better than you.

I do not belive women should hold jobs such as coal mining or hard labor where they are forced to sweat and stress in the hot sun covered in grease and dirt.

Job. Forced. These are not the same concept. Some of them want to, who are you to stop them?

I also do not believe that women should hold overly dangerous jobs such as any military combat role.

Why the fuck not?

Again tey have men for that.

And? They are just as good at it. Why can't they do it?

It is our job as men to protect our families and people in times of crisis.

No it fucking isn't.

I have a 2 year old daughter and I will be damned is she joins the military.

And how are you planning on stopping her if she decides that is what she wants to do? Other than decades of indoctrination, of course.

And if the man in the house has his wife crawling under the house to fix plumbing then there is something wrong.

Because obviously, every woman in the world is married and women are completely incapable of looking after themselves without a man to protect them? Put your power fantasy back in your pants.

Why does everyone seem to think I am forcing billions of women to accept these views. I have stated that this is simply an opinion of one person, posted on a forum were we are supposed to post our opinions. On a website that no world leader will ever look to for enacting national policy. I promise that no women will be forced against her will to do things the way I happen to think just because I posted this. I do not go to the streets holding signs protesting to support what I posted here. Personally I do not much care if women can do my job better than me. Great for them. Everyone has their own idea on what society should be like, I am no different. But just because we have those ideas does not mean others wil agree with them or abide by them. I knew others would not agree with what I posted to begin with. But if you dont agree then just say so and get on with your day. Calling me a bigot, ingnorant evil person and other attacks such as not taking part in raising my child is well...childish. Its not like you have to deal with me in your own lives. I do not work or live next to any of you so I dont see a problem.

It seems my wife has already saw fit to apologize for me so why not.

I am so sorry I seemed to have offended so many with my opinion.

PS: I still thank God you chose me, Alison.

[Salandriagado]

Name five. Then I'll give you five women that do them better than you.



Job. Forced. These are not the same concept. Some of them want to, who are you to stop them?



Why the fuck not?



And? They are just as good at it. Why can't they do it?



No it fucking isn't.



And how are you planning on stopping her if she decides that is what she wants to do? Other than decades of indoctrination, of course.



Because obviously, every woman in the world is married and women are completely incapable of looking after themselves without a man to protect them? Put your power fantasy back in your pants.

Why does everyone seem to think I am forcing billions of women to accept these views.

Because the English language has grammar and words within it have meaning, and you are putting words together that claim that.

I have stated that this is simply an opinion of one person, posted on a forum were we are supposed to post our opinions.

No, where we are supposed to debate. That is not the same thing. If you post an opinion here, you better be ready to defend it.

On a website that no world leader will ever look to for enacting national policy.

Completely irrelevant.

I promise that no women will be forced against her will to do things the way I happen to think just because I posted this. I do not go to the streets holding signs protesting to support what I posted here. Personally I do not much care if women can do my job better than me. Great for them.

So you agree that you are completely and utterly wrong?

Everyone has their own idea on what society should be like, I am no different.

And they have exactly zero value unless you can defend them with evidence and the like.

But just because we have those ideas does not mean others wil agree with them or abide by them. I knew others would not agree with what I posted to begin with. But if you dont agree then just say so and get on with your day.

Debate forum. Debate. Which part of that word do you find difficult to understand?

Calling me a bigot, ingnorant evil person and other attacks such as not taking part in raising my child is well...childish.

No, it isn't. It's debate.

Its not like you have to deal with me in your own lives. I do not work or live next to any of you so I dont see a problem.

You posted your opinion in a debate forum. That makes it a claim to be debate. The particular opinion that you posted was monumentally stupid and demonstrably false, so it got ripped to shreds.

It seems my wife has already saw fit to apologize for me so why not.

HINT: If your wife is saying that, it probably means she's annoyed at you.

I am so sorry I seemed to have offended so many with my opinion.

You haven't. You have posted in a debate forum and seem to be confused that people are debating.

[Cannot think of a name]

Why does everyone seem to think I am forcing billions of women to accept these views. I have stated that this is simply an opinion of one person, posted on a forum were we are supposed to post our opinions. On a website that no world leader will ever look to for enacting national policy. I promise that no women will be forced against her will to do things the way I happen to think just because I posted this. I do not go to the streets holding signs protesting to support what I posted here. Personally I do not much care if women can do my job better than me. Great for them. Everyone has their own idea on what society should be like, I am no different. But just because we have those ideas does not mean others wil agree with them or abide by them. I knew others would not agree with what I posted to begin with. But if you dont agree then just say so and get on with your day. Calling me a bigot, ingnorant evil person and other attacks such as not taking part in raising my child is well...childish. Its not like you have to deal with me in your own lives. I do not work or live next to any of you so I dont see a problem.

It seems my wife has already saw fit to apologize for me so why not.

I am so sorry I seemed to have offended so many with my opinion.

PS: I still thank God you chose me, Alison.

Ah, you are confused. We're here to help you.

First, lets get something out of the way:

Your elementary school teachers lied to you. Your coaches, and especially your parents, but they can be forgiven. You are not a special little snowflake. To the people who are important to you and to whom you are important, sure. I'm sure that your daughter and wife and parents all adore the shit out of you and we have no reason to believe they should not.

However...

We do not give a shit. We're all sons and daughters, students and teachers, lovers, parents, etc etc. You are just another box of text on a screen. For all we know or care you are a giant naked man who likes to be called Lulu. I assure you, should that be the case our opinion of the things you write would be completely unchanged.

There is nothing about you or who you are or who we are that requires us to hold anything you might call 'an opinion' in anything other than contempt. We are here, in one way or another, to disagree. And disagree we will.

We have no allusions regarding your ability to enact your opinion. That must have been a flattering moment for yourself, but no one thinks you're that special. Elementary school teachers like to be nice, we're not.

We will challenge your ideas, even if you call them 'opinions', because there is nothing sacred about an opinion. Someone may have given you this idea sometime in your life. They lied. I'm sorry. But they did. We will examine the implications of these opinions, we will explore the applications of these opinions in the cold light of day and challenge their assertions. This is not assuming that you could do them, but to show you that if someone did, they would be stupid.

And that, finally, is why opinions are not sacred. Because like natural selection, they become stronger by being put to the test. And if they are held sacred you never have to defend them and you may never find out that your opinion, no matter how precious, is just fucking stupid. You can quibble on matters of taste, sure, but if you want to eat at the adult table you have to understand the substantive difference between "I like Neon Trees" and "I think traditional gender roles are the way things should be."

Good luck. You might want to wear a helmet.

EDIT: Ninjas...always with the ninjas...