Capitalism vs. Communism

[Conscentia]

Don't be fooled by the ''stateless, moneyless classless'' rhetoric... All they will bring about is The Return of The Stalin...

You have absolutely no valid proof of that.

[Jassysworth 1]

It is our duty to make sure the days of Stalin don't return.

Don't be fooled by the ''stateless, moneyless classless'' rhetoric... All they will bring about is The Return of The Stalin...

Alright. You just made your way on to my ignore list. If you seriously can't distinguish libertarian communists/socialists from idiotic state capitalist Stalinism, then please, please, stick your head in the sand and don't ever show up again. I fucking hate Stalin. Yes, hear me? Let me make it bigger for you all to read; I fucking hate Stalin and how he repressed true liberty in Revolutionary Catalonia and elsewhere. This discussion has been made. If you can actually bring up any intellectual arguments please contact me because until then I won't be replying to your posts anymore.

If you actually took the time to read any of our post, any of them, you would know that we are all Stalin haters. But no. You have to be ignorant of everything we say.

And it is my duty to make sure the days of Pinochet and Franco don't return.

Don't be fooled by the "individual liberty" rhetoric... All they will bring about is The Return of The Pinochet and The Franco...

except you know... the perfectly functioning liberal democratic societies you and I live in that are not founded on communist principles.

Oh and by the way... it doesn't matter what your ideology is theoretically about. What matters are the results... from common sense alone you can see that a large scale classless, stateless, and moneyless society leads to warlords + chaos followed by authoritarian dictatorship.

So no, it wasn't just an accident of fate that when people have tried to overthrow governments in real life using the name of communism, they just ended up with tinpot dictators all across.

There is something that is intrinsically idiotic about wanting to create a stateless, classless, moneyless society. Maybe because it takes away all of the pillars that make society work smoothly (the state, social classes, and money)...

[Conscentia]

from common sense alone

Imma stop you there ... No scientist would accept that as valid evidence, because it's not.

[Jassysworth 1]

Don't be fooled by the ''stateless, moneyless classless'' rhetoric... All they will bring about is The Return of The Stalin...

You have absolutely no valid proof of that.

Forming a large scale stateless, moneyless, classless society leads to chaos which leads to warlords which lead to tinpot dictatorship/Stalin.

Use common sense please...

[Mavorpen]

So no, it wasn't just an accident of fate that when people have tried to overthrow governments in real life using the name of communism, they just ended up with tinpot dictators all across.

Actually it was, and it wasn't.

[Conscentia]

You have absolutely no valid proof of that.

Stateless, moneyless, classless society leads to chaos which leads to warlords which lead to tinpot dictatorship/Stalin.

Use common sense please...

No scientist would accept that as valid evidence, because it's not.

Use valid reasoning please...

[Yorkopolis]

You have absolutely no valid proof of that.

Forming a large scale stateless, moneyless, classless society leads to chaos which leads to warlords which lead to tinpot dictatorship/Stalin.

Use common sense please...

No sources. Try again.

And Revolutionary Catalonia and the Free Territory will tell you otherwise.

[Jassysworth 1]

from common sense alone

Imma stop you there ... No scientist would accept that as valid evidence, because it's not.

Except we can't go around performing a scientific experiment with tens of millions of real people in an attempt to form a stateless, classless, and moneyless society with a null hypothesis that is related to whether or not it will evolve into chaos, warlordism, and bloodthirsty dictatorships.

That would be kind of unethical.

So... I'm going to use common sense where science isn't much use...

[Jassysworth 1]

Forming a large scale stateless, moneyless, classless society leads to chaos which leads to warlords which lead to tinpot dictatorship/Stalin.

Use common sense please...

No sources. Try again.

Still no real life examples of a functioning large scale communist society that has lasted to the present day.

Try again.

Until then, I'll assume you either have an agenda to grab power and be the next Polit Bureau, are incredibly naive, or are purposely avoiding common sense.

[Mavorpen]

Still no real life examples of a functioning large scale communist society that has lasted to the present day.

Probably because it wasn't expected to be able to work at this time. It was only when the Paris Commune occurred that Marx got excited and jumped the gun, stating that communism could happen at this time. It was rather silly.

[Yorkopolis]

No sources. Try again.

Still no real life examples of a functioning large scale communist society that has lasted to the present day.

Try again.

Until then, I'll assume you either have an agenda to grab power and be the next Polit Bureau, are incredibly naive, or are purposely avoiding common sense.

The Free Territory and Revolutionary Catalonia - both things which apparently haven't happened in your world - will tell you otherwise. They were crushed by outside forces. They could have lasted to this day if it wasn't for the Spanish Civil War and the Russian Civil War.

[Conscentia]

Imma stop you there ... No scientist would accept that as valid evidence, because it's not.

Except we can't go around performing a scientific experiment with tens of millions of real people in an attempt to form a stateless, classless, and moneyless society with a null hypothesis that is related to whether or not it will evolve into chaos, warlordism, and bloodthirsty dictatorships.

That would be kind of unethical.

So... I'm going to use common sense where science isn't much use...

Thy thinking is baseless, and thy opposition seems to be based solely on paranoia & prejudice rather than valid reasoning.

Only could perform smaller scale tests and scale up, as any reasonable person would.
No one tests an experimental medicine by rolling it out to the public on a large scale.
Same would apply to testing political theory, assuming anyone were willing to try.

There's no such thing as common sense.

[Jassysworth 1]

Except we can't go around performing a scientific experiment with tens of millions of real people in an attempt to form a stateless, classless, and moneyless society with a null hypothesis that is related to whether or not it will evolve into chaos, warlordism, and bloodthirsty dictatorships.

That would be kind of unethical.

So... I'm going to use common sense where science isn't much use...

Thy thinking is baseless, and thy opposition seems to be based solely on paranoid prejudice rather than valid reasoning.

Only could perform smaller scale tests and scale up, as any reasonable person would.
No one tests an experimental medicine by rolling it out to the public on a large scale.
Same would apply to testing political theory, assuming anyone were willing to try.

There's no such thing as common sense.

Except you can't replicate large scale communism conclusively without endangering the lives of millions of people.

Of course there is common sense...

There are those who will wait for a real life experiment involving millions soaked with blood to prove the commonsensical notion that forming a large scale stateless, moneyless, and classless society leads to chaos/warlordism which then ends with an authoritarian dictatorship before they fully accept the impracticality of communism...

AND

there are those who can just use there common sense and get there first.

Which group do you want to be in?

[Jassysworth 1]

Still no real life examples of a functioning large scale communist society that has lasted to the present day.

Try again.

Until then, I'll assume you either have an agenda to grab power and be the next Polit Bureau, are incredibly naive, or are purposely avoiding common sense.

The Free Territory and Revolutionary Catalonia - both things which apparently haven't happened in your world - will tell you otherwise. They were crushed by outside forces. They could have lasted to this day if it wasn't for the Spanish Civil War and the Russian Civil War.

They mean absolutely nothing because neither of them lasted past two years. They weren't even around long enough for disorder to follow, shortages to occur, chaos to occur, and dictators to take power. This makes them absolutely useless for any kind of comparison...

If you ideology has no success to brag of in thousands of years of human civilization except a few small scale societies that each lasted less than two yeas and were crushed...

that is just sad.

[Conscentia]

Except you can't replicate large scale communism conclusively without endangering the lives of millions of people.

That's why you start on a smaller scale, and progressively scale up, like with medical research.

Of course there is common sense...

There are those who will wait for a real life experiment involving millions soaked with blood to prove the commonsensical notion that forming a large scale stateless, moneyless, and classless society leads to chaos/warlordism which then ends with an authoritarian dictatorship before they fully accept the impracticality of communism...

AND
there are those who can just use there common sense and get there first.

Which group do you want to be in?

No. I'm quite certain common sense is made up nonsense.
A lot of what science has proven to be true would counter what some would consider common sense, for example.

Thy post simply backs up my suggestion that thy 'common sense' is in fact paranoia and prejudice.

[Of the Free Socialist Territories]

They weren't even around long enough for disorder to follow, shortages to occur, chaos to occur, and dictators to take power. This makes them absolutely useless for any kind of comparison...

So what you're saying is that the only reason that dictatorship and breakdown didn't occur is because they weren't around for long enough? And you're doing this with only an appeal to "common sense", but no sources, to back you up? How delightfully intellectually dishonest of you.

[Mavorpen]

They weren't even around long enough for disorder to follow, shortages to occur, chaos to occur, and dictators to take power. This makes them absolutely useless for any kind of comparison...

So what you're saying is that the only reason that dictatorship and breakdown didn't occur is because they weren't around for long enough? And you're doing this with only an appeal to "common sense", but no sources, to back you up? How delightfully intellectually dishonest of you.

What, you actually think facts and reason are better than "common sense"? Commies these days.

[Yorkopolis]

Thy thinking is baseless, and thy opposition seems to be based solely on paranoid prejudice rather than valid reasoning.

Only could perform smaller scale tests and scale up, as any reasonable person would.
No one tests an experimental medicine by rolling it out to the public on a large scale.
Same would apply to testing political theory, assuming anyone were willing to try.

There's no such thing as common sense.

Except you can't replicate large scale communism conclusively without endangering the lives of millions of people.

Of course there is common sense...

There are those who will wait for a real life experiment involving millions soaked with blood to prove the commonsensical notion that forming a large scale stateless, moneyless, and classless society leads to chaos/warlordism which then ends with an authoritarian dictatorship before they fully accept the impracticality of communism...

AND

there are those who can just use there common sense and get there first.

Which group do you want to be in?

Where is your proof? You can't use "OMG COMMON SENSE HURRR DURR DERP" as an argument. I'm sorry to break your bubble, but common sense does not exist. You have no proof at all that a large scale stateless, moneyless and classless society leads to chaos nor warlordism. The Free Territory and Revolutionary Catalonia - both of which have been brought up time and time before and you seem to just deny their existence, you historical revisionist - will tell you that statelessness, classlessness and moneylessness can work on a large scale and last successfully for at least 3 years (Free Territory) and 2 years (Catalonia), too.

[Jassysworth 1]

They weren't even around long enough for disorder to follow, shortages to occur, chaos to occur, and dictators to take power. This makes them absolutely useless for any kind of comparison...

So what you're saying is that the only reason that dictatorship and breakdown didn't occur is because they weren't around for long enough? And you're doing this with only an appeal to "common sense", but no sources, to back you up? How delightfully intellectually dishonest of you.

It's equally intellectually dishonest to assume they would have worked had they stuck around long enough when the truth was they didn't.

At least my assumptions are in line with common sense...

No state, no class, no money on a large scale leads to chaos, suffering, warlordism which then leads to authoritarian dictatorship.

Because what else would happen? There is no government and people will never be tempted to seize power right? There is no money but the economy won't be any less efficient right? And you can expect people to treat each other always as equals and for no social classes to ever appear again right?

Uh... i don't think so

Communism is fought for with the blood of the naive (people who THINK these sorts of pipe dreams are possible), orchestrated by power-hungry populists with designs to be the Polit Bureau, and ultimately results in suffering for everyone. It's an exercise in dismemberment... of the very foundations of functional society (class, the state, money).

[Jassysworth 1]

So what you're saying is that the only reason that dictatorship and breakdown didn't occur is because they weren't around for long enough? And you're doing this with only an appeal to "common sense", but no sources, to back you up? How delightfully intellectually dishonest of you.

What, you actually think facts and reason are better than "common sense"? Commies these days.

Commies these days promote a brand of Marxism that has more in common with the view of John Lennon than the views of Lenin himself.

Yet if their views were implemented we would all be in so much trouble...

[Jassysworth 1]

Except you can't replicate large scale communism conclusively without endangering the lives of millions of people.

Of course there is common sense...

There are those who will wait for a real life experiment involving millions soaked with blood to prove the commonsensical notion that forming a large scale stateless, moneyless, and classless society leads to chaos/warlordism which then ends with an authoritarian dictatorship before they fully accept the impracticality of communism...

AND

there are those who can just use there common sense and get there first.

Which group do you want to be in?

Where is your proof? You can't use "OMG COMMON SENSE HURRR DURR DERP" as an argument. I'm sorry to break your bubble, but common sense does not exist. You have no proof at all that a large scale stateless, moneyless and classless society leads to chaos nor warlordism. The Free Territory and Revolutionary Catalonia - both of which have been brought up time and time before and you seem to just deny their existence, you historical revisionist - will tell you that statelessness, classlessness and moneylessness can work on a large scale and last successfully for at least 3 years (Free Territory) and 2 years (Catalonia), too.

This is as obvious as saying if you annoy the hell out of someone he will eventually be pissed off.

If you dismember the state, social classes, and money... you get a lot of suffering because you've destroyed the body that is the functioning society.

[Yorkopolis]

Where is your proof? You can't use "OMG COMMON SENSE HURRR DURR DERP" as an argument. I'm sorry to break your bubble, but common sense does not exist. You have no proof at all that a large scale stateless, moneyless and classless society leads to chaos nor warlordism. The Free Territory and Revolutionary Catalonia - both of which have been brought up time and time before and you seem to just deny their existence, you historical revisionist - will tell you that statelessness, classlessness and moneylessness can work on a large scale and last successfully for at least 3 years (Free Territory) and 2 years (Catalonia), too.

This is as obvious as saying if you annoy the hell out of someone he will eventually be pissed off.

If you dismember the state, social classes, and money... you get a lot of suffering because you've destroyed the body that is the functioning society.

Again. No proof. Until you have sourced your statements your argument is null.

And I can go on. Catalonia functioned without a state, for 2 years! The Free Territory functioned without a state, for effectively 3 years! And there was no poverty nor money in any of those. There was only suffering at the hands of the Stalinists/Whites/Bolshevists. Until you can counter-state anything of that, I will not acknowledge your claims as legitimate.

[Mavorpen]

What, you actually think facts and reason are better than "common sense"? Commies these days.

Commies these days promote a brand of Marxism that has more in common with the view of John Lennon than the views of Lenin himself.

Yet if their views were implemented we would all be in so much trouble...

I...Why is Lenin relevant when it comes to Marxism more than Marx?

[Jassysworth 1]

This is as obvious as saying if you annoy the hell out of someone he will eventually be pissed off.

If you dismember the state, social classes, and money... you get a lot of suffering because you've destroyed the body that is the functioning society.

Again. No proof. Until you have sourced your statements your argument is null.

Again... Still no real life examples of a functioning large scale communist society that has lasted to the present day.

Until then, I'll assume anyone who is a communist either has an agenda to grab power and be the next Polit Bureau, are incredibly naive, or are purposely avoiding common sense because that is what ANYONE with a common sense should assume.

This is the historical record thus far...

[Jassysworth 1]

Commies these days promote a brand of Marxism that has more in common with the view of John Lennon than the views of Lenin himself.

Yet if their views were implemented we would all be in so much trouble...

I...Why is Lenin relevant when it comes to Marxism more than Marx?

They are both largely irrelevant in the 21st century...

and I sincerely pray that with the passage of time, the last vestiges of their dangerous project will finally disappear into the dust of history and humanity will finally be saved from the dangers of the Red Menace.