School Shooting in Connecticut - Multiple Fatalities

[Gauntleted Fist]

I understand they made a lot of errors trying to report on this first, but missing about where the rifle was found and what rounds were spent is really unbelievable as anyone should be able to tell the difference between a rifle casing and a pistol casing, and you know these had to be all over the area.

Er, did you miss the part about first responders receiving counselling for what they saw afterward? Pretty sure people were just a little busy making sure no one else was getting killed, or busy being helping the children/parents. Now that the investigation has actually started I'm sure more will be revealed.

[Farnhamia]

I understand they made a lot of errors trying to report on this first, but missing about where the rifle was found and what rounds were spent is really unbelievable as anyone should be able to tell the difference between a rifle casing and a pistol casing, and you know these had to be all over the area.

Er, did you miss the part about first responders receiving counselling for what they saw afterward? Pretty sure people were just a little busy making sure no one else was getting killed, or busy being helping the children/parents. Now that the investigation has actually started I'm sure more will be revealed.

It's why I kind of regret instant communication sometimes. Used to be that there was time to work out the details correctly.

[Greed and Death]

I have a hard time believing they were shot with a rifle as the rounds would have gone through the walls and bound to have injured others. A .223 moving at 3300 ft/sec wouldn't stop in a child or adult at close range.

The NY Times says:

The gunman in the Connecticut shooting blasted his way into the elementary school and then sprayed the children with bullets, first from a distance and then at close range, hitting some of them as many as 11 times, as he fired a semiautomatic rifle loaded with ammunition designed for maximum damage, officials said Saturday.

The state’s chief medical examiner, H. Wayne Carver II, said all of the 20 children and 6 adults gunned down at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn., had been struck more than once in the fusillade.

He said their wounds were “all over, all over.”

“This is a very devastating set of injuries,” he said at a briefing in Newtown. When he was asked if they had suffered after they were hit, he said, “Not for very long.”

And really, does it matter where the rounds stopped? Since people in other rooms were not injured, we can assume the angle or having to pass through multiple human bodies, however small, stopped them, wouldn't you say?

Or he used hollow points.
tends to not go through so much as mushroom out and perform maximum damage to the target. Used in hunting because it minimizes animal suffering and risk of passing through hitting someone else, and in home defense because it minimizes pass through risk and is more likely to stop a target.

Well here is to hoping a move to ban hollow points is not under way.

[Norjagen]

Most of the children killed were apparently huddled up together near to the ground. So he would have been shooting down at them. Essentially into the ground. (Except for the adults.)

Confusing.

I understand they made a lot of errors trying to report on this first, but missing about where the rifle was found and what rounds were spent is really unbelievable as anyone should be able to tell the difference between a rifle casing and a pistol casing, and you know these had to be all over the area.

It is worth noting that the NY Times has a record of being somewhat inaccurate where guns are concerned. Not exactly a gun-friendly paper, with a stake in making this sound as terrifying as possible.

NY daily news states the following.
"Lanza, 20, did all his damage with two 9-mm. handguns after driving to the school in his dead mother’s car around 9:30 a.m., strolling inside and opening fire, authorities said.

Lanza left his mother’s body behind as he drove to the school, with a .223-caliber rifle in the trunk. He carried a pair of handguns — a Glock and a Sig Sauer — inside with him after apparently parking the car in a fire lane."

EDIT: Link to the article, here

[Bug Out]

I have a hard time believing they were shot with a rifle as the rounds would have gone through the walls and bound to have injured others. A .223 moving at 3300 ft/sec wouldn't stop in a child or adult at close range.

The NY Times says:

The gunman in the Connecticut shooting blasted his way into the elementary school and then sprayed the children with bullets, first from a distance and then at close range, hitting some of them as many as 11 times, as he fired a semiautomatic rifle loaded with ammunition designed for maximum damage, officials said Saturday.

The state’s chief medical examiner, H. Wayne Carver II, said all of the 20 children and 6 adults gunned down at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn., had been struck more than once in the fusillade.

He said their wounds were “all over, all over.”

“This is a very devastating set of injuries,” he said at a briefing in Newtown. When he was asked if they had suffered after they were hit, he said, “Not for very long.”

And really, does it matter where the rounds stopped? Since people in other rooms were not injured, we can assume the angle or having to pass through multiple human bodies, however small, stopped them, wouldn't you say?

not to the end result it doesn't matter. It was and is a tragedy of massive proportions. I just like for reports to make sense. It adds to credibility. The angle would have helped as would enough bodies. It's just almost impossible for all shots to find their mark completely.

[Norjagen]

I need to head to bed. I'd like to thank everyone who engaged in civil discussion tonight. Farmhamia, Zeonic, Black Forrest, Forcher, everyone else who kept cool heads amongst differing opinions, it's been a pleasure. And, it was refreshing after the somewhat... lacking debate earlier this evening. Take care, and goodnight.

[Greed and Death]

I need to head to bed. I'd like to thank everyone who engaged in civil discussion tonight. Farmhamia, Zeonic, Black Forrest, Forcher, everyone else who kept cool heads amongst differing opinions, it's been a pleasure. And, it was refreshing after the somewhat... lacking debate earlier this evening. Take care, and goodnight.

No thanking me ?
that is it I will hijack this thread with such flame.

[Farnhamia]

I need to head to bed. I'd like to thank everyone who engaged in civil discussion tonight. Farmhamia, Zeonic, Black Forrest, Forcher, everyone else who kept cool heads amongst differing opinions, it's been a pleasure. And, it was refreshing after the somewhat... lacking debate earlier this evening. Take care, and goodnight.

No thanking me ?
that is it I will hijack this thread with such flame.

Is being a prat all the time your defense mechanism for dealing with the world?

[Bug Out]

I understand they made a lot of errors trying to report on this first, but missing about where the rifle was found and what rounds were spent is really unbelievable as anyone should be able to tell the difference between a rifle casing and a pistol casing, and you know these had to be all over the area.

Er, did you miss the part about first responders receiving counselling for what they saw afterward? Pretty sure people were just a little busy making sure no one else was getting killed, or busy being helping the children/parents. Now that the investigation has actually started I'm sure more will be revealed.

No, I didn't miss the report. I'm also sure that if they knew the gunman had a Sig and a Glock, and both of them were 9mm. They also knew what shell casings were all over the floor as this report was at 6:00 pm.

[Norjagen]

No thanking me ?
that is it I will hijack this thread with such flame.

Is being a prat all the time your defense mechanism for dealing with the world?

Oh god, it's starting. Night, everyone! *Runs away*

[Greed and Death]

No thanking me ?
that is it I will hijack this thread with such flame.

Is being a prat all the time your defense mechanism for dealing with the world?

Alcohol is the primary defense mechanism.

[Farnhamia]

Is being a prat all the time your defense mechanism for dealing with the world?

Oh god, it's starting. Night, everyone! *Runs away*

G'night!

[The Zeonic States]

I need to head to bed. I'd like to thank everyone who engaged in civil discussion tonight. Farmhamia, Zeonic, Black Forrest, Forcher, everyone else who kept cool heads amongst differing opinions, it's been a pleasure. And, it was refreshing after the somewhat... lacking debate earlier this evening. Take care, and goodnight.

Night Norj

[Bug Out]

The NY Times says:


And really, does it matter where the rounds stopped? Since people in other rooms were not injured, we can assume the angle or having to pass through multiple human bodies, however small, stopped them, wouldn't you say?

Or he used hollow points.
tends to not go through so much as mushroom out and perform maximum damage to the target. Used in hunting because it minimizes animal suffering and risk of passing through hitting someone else, and in home defense because it minimizes pass through risk and is more likely to stop a target.

Well here is to hoping a move to ban hollow points is not under way.

Hollow points are a possibility, but most of them I've tried don't mushroom very well with a .223. They still punch right through deer at 60 yards, and they are not legal to hunt with in my state. I'm not sure about nationwide. They are also not allowed in combat. But as you say, it could make a difference.

[The Zeonic States]

Or he used hollow points.
tends to not go through so much as mushroom out and perform maximum damage to the target. Used in hunting because it minimizes animal suffering and risk of passing through hitting someone else, and in home defense because it minimizes pass through risk and is more likely to stop a target.

Well here is to hoping a move to ban hollow points is not under way.

I used Hollowpoints for my 18 back when i used the thing to Hunt Elk and it had mixed results.


Hollow points are a possibility, but most of them I've tried don't mushroom very well with a .223. They still punch right through deer at 60 yards, and they are not legal to hunt with in my state. I'm not sure about nationwide. They are also not allowed in combat. But as you say, it could make a difference.

[Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f]

Well, I'm not looking to convince you or to debate the issue. I'm looking for understanding. I want to be sure I understand your position and I want to be sure you understand mine. I'm actually fairly comfortable that you understand mine now. But I'm not sure I understand yours.

I'm still getting an impression from you that you think restricting gun ownership will prevent incidents like the one in Newtown CT. You seem to see psychiatric evaluations as a means to restrict gun ownership and not as a means to prevent the incidents themselves.

Is this accurate?

there are other areas that can be explored...from making ammo very expensive (and making home manufacturing highly illegal) to having yearly checks on gun owners and their weapons (storage etc) to restricting firearms to non semi automatic weapons, remove all vestiges of firearm militarization (sorry but why do you need a AR15 lookalike to go hunting?)...hell even make pistols and revolvers illegal. Illegal ownership carrying a hefty sentence...say ten years...or fifteen.

there is no one single solution is my point but a range of measures need to looked at.

So LG...thoughts? Am interested in knowing if you understand my position...

[Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f]

Are you telling me you don't understand the word "simulated"?

Absolutely I understand. None of the targets I posted simulate a living animal, therefore they can't be use to simulate killing something/someone.

Edited because I misspoke.

Ok...you don't understand the word simulate. Fair enough.

[Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f]

Most don't care about the killer.

I do. He was little more than a kid himself. When a 20 year old goes nuts like that, I wonder who failed him. He was as much a victim; we just don't know what he was a victim of yet.

Most don't care about the killer.

I care. I want to know why, having killed his mother, he felt the need to go to the school where she worked and kill as many people as he could. I really do want to know. I hate it when mass murderers take the easy way out and kill themselves.

I'm with LG and Farn on this...I want to know why as well....I also feel that to have been driven to do something so heinous there has to be a reason. If it is not politically inspired of course. Which does not seem to be the case here.

[Kulverint]

And in the top 10, 5 are America. Can you honestly not see the link?

I don't remember arguing against the fact that the U.S. has the most massacres. I did mention however that it's not the only place where mass killings occur. Part of that has to do with better gun control restrictions in several countries, and the other part is the really shitty system of attacking personality disorders before this type of stuff occurs. I think the only issue I wa arguing was the fact that all massacres aren't just in the U.S., and that campus police exist in other countries (including the UK, for which I gave you a Guardian article iirc).

Fact of the matter is that the root of the issue is the mental health. In every massacre or mass killing, the two things in common have been the use of weapons (firearms or not—knives and other weapons have been used as well) and faulty mental health of the perpetrator. Mind --> body --> guns --> crime.

How about we focus on that rather than why high schools have police officers?

This I accept, so the obvious solution, rather than "If sum1 was there they wuld have shot the guy!!11!" is Mind --> body --> TAKE AWAY THE GUNS --> less crime, if any at all. Say what you want, but no one's ever going to kill 26 people with a knife before the police get there.

[Northern Dominus]

I do. He was little more than a kid himself. When a 20 year old goes nuts like that, I wonder who failed him. He was as much a victim; we just don't know what he was a victim of yet.

I care. I want to know why, having killed his mother, he felt the need to go to the school where she worked and kill as many people as he could. I really do want to know. I hate it when mass murderers take the easy way out and kill themselves.

I'm with LG and Farn on this...I want to know why as well....I also feel that to have been driven to do something so heinous there has to be a reason. If it is not politically inspired of course. Which does not seem to be the case here.

Good luck with that. We'll never know. The only two people who could have ever told us exactly why or at least given us a clue are dead and anything else is pretty much speculation at this point. Maybe if Lamza kept a journal or something to shed light on his motivations, maybe then we'll have a clue. But for now any speculation is just grasping at straws in pitch black.

Edit: Oh I just love waking up to this
Bryan Fischer: God did not protect Connecticut shooting victims because prayer not allowed in school...

You know what, I've tried to be civil about stupidity like this, but that's it. There's really only one sentiment left to express when confronted with that sort of statement.

Fuck you Bryan Fischer, you and all of your empty-headed simpleton inbred spiteful hateful wastes of oxygen and carbon audience who listens to you. While I'm at it fuck you too Mike Huckabee, you said the same goddamn thing. You two and EVERYONE like you are just as bad as the pro-gun fetishists that come out of the woodwork right away the second a heinous act of gun violence is brought up. The difference is at least they're topical, whereas people like you think that anytime is good to spout your particular brand of zealot pious bullshit, nevermind the pulpit you're using made from bodies and blood.

So guess what? You two and everyone like you can just go the hell away and leave us decent human beings alone. There are religious people who put healing and community first and not your bullshit pithy views. If you can't help Sandy Hook heal, then you're not welcome or needed, period.

[Esternial]

I'm with LG and Farn on this...I want to know why as well....I also feel that to have been driven to do something so heinous there has to be a reason. If it is not politically inspired of course. Which does not seem to be the case here.

Good luck with that. We'll never know. The only two people who could have ever told us exactly why or at least given us a clue are dead and anything else is pretty much speculation at this point. Maybe if Lamza kept a journal or something to shed light on his motivations, maybe then we'll have a clue. But for now any speculation is just grasping at straws in pitch black.

Maybe his brother could shed some light on the situation...

[Northern Dominus]

Good luck with that. We'll never know. The only two people who could have ever told us exactly why or at least given us a clue are dead and anything else is pretty much speculation at this point. Maybe if Lamza kept a journal or something to shed light on his motivations, maybe then we'll have a clue. But for now any speculation is just grasping at straws in pitch black.

Maybe his brother could shed some light on the situation...

Yeah well with the way the media jumped on his back as the shooter and plastered his face everywhere, how cooperative do you suppose he is? Bear in mind it was his brother that killed his mom then went on to shoot 20 1st graders. I can't imagine how isolated he must feel now.

[Ceannairceach]

So not only is the Westboro Baptist Church planning on picketing the school, they are also blaming Carrie Underwood for the shooting.

I am officially confuzzled.

[AiliailiA]

So not only is the Westboro Baptist Church planning on picketing the school, they are also blaming Carrie Underwood for the shooting.

I am officially confuzzled.

The Westboro ... nope. Ignore.

[Northern Dominus]

So not only is the Westboro Baptist Church planning on picketing the school, they are also blaming Carrie Underwood for the shooting.

I am officially confuzzled.

It's the Westboro Baptist Church. They're like a petulant toddler who threatens to hurt themselves when a sibling or parent is sick or injured. Obviously the focus is not on them so something is wrong.

Really, if we treated the WBC for what it really is, that is a bunch of yokels from Kansas with not much to do and no personality save for the one the head yokel in charge has, and simply ignored them wherever they went, including the media, they'd go away, or at least just be Kansas' problem.