[PASSED] Condemn 'True North'

[Sedgistan]

Condemn "True North"

Category: Condemnation | Nominee: True North | Proposed By: Delegate Vinage

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Description: The Security Council,

NOTING, the region's high population has been achieved through 'puppet flooding' nations into the region.

DISAPPOINTED, that regions committed to either recruiting new nations to their own region or welcoming new nations that join the Pacifics have been pushed down population rankings due to the actions of said region.

BELIEVING that the sheer number of puppet states negatively affects the world and can hamper other nations attempting to travel with speed.

THEREFORE, punishing the region that has committed the above offence the most as a note that the Security Council disagrees with these actions.

HEREBY, condemns True North

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First draft as composed with a few others, honestly I am not too sure on the legality of some of the clauses and this might be pushing the R4 just a little bit too much - let me know if that's the case!

Thoughts, opinions, areas to improve on?

[Cormac Stark]

BELIEVING that the sheer number of puppet states negatively affects the world and can hamper other nations attempting to travel with speed.

To me, it looks like you've managed to comply with R4 here but you'll probably want input from people who have been at this longer. "Puppet states" is definitely legal. My concern would be with nations traveling; however, the game indicates when we move to another region that our nations are transported by helicopters so I think this might actually be ok.

In regard to the overall proposal, I'm not sure I can agree that a region should be condemned merely for puppet flooding. I think the third clause, cited above, probably makes the strongest case but I think you would need some kind of technical evidence that this is having some kind of significant detrimental impact on the game. I'm also concerned that once we set this precedent it will be used to carry out R/D grudge matches; I can literally see Condemn Kyzikos, Condemn Epogennick, Condemn Munster, etc.

[Unibot III]

Honestly: congrats to True North, that's a lot of puppets!

[Kingborough]

To throw my two cents worth into the ring, I have to say nothing or a commendation for the effort would be more appropriate really. It's a big job making those puppets.

[Jamie Anumia]

I'm doubtful in the term 'puppet flooding' being legal, since it's quite commonly a moderation issue since it's most likely a Rule 4 violation.

[Welsh Cowboy]

For full disclosure, I'm the player behind The Colony Master, who has helped with this project, although I'm not the one behind it.

Honestly, I don't see why we would be condemned for playing a legal part of the game, albeit one that almost no one does. The rules allow us to create as many puppets as we want, so we do. I see it very similarly to raiding and defending. The rules allow people to move in and out of regions and take WA delegate positions, so the R/D community has created a subgame of NS that wasn't initially intended and most people don't participate in. And should that whole community be condemned for making the WA page lag with so much switching and applying? Also, I'd note that Kyzikos and Epogennick are very large puppet storage regions too.

If people don't like that we are playing a legal part of the game, then I think this would be something to be discussed as a technical change. But to condemn us? It seems unfounded.

[Communist Eraser]

Every commend and condemn has been for something that is legal in the game, otherwise the thing couldn't exist in the first place.

C&Cs are all about things we like or dislike despite being legal.

[Welsh Cowboy]

Every commend and condemn has been for something that is legal in the game, otherwise the thing couldn't exist in the first place.

C&Cs are all about things we like or dislike despite being legal.

I suppose that's a good point, but unless these server lag issues are proven true, the only basis for this is that we're playing a part of the game proficiently.

Why not condemn good raiding or defending groups for playing their subgame proficiently?

[Frattastan]

Probably you could find a better term than 'puppet flooding'.

As a side note, illegal actions can be mentioned in SC resolutions (from the Compendium: "It is possible to mention these actions in a resolution, provided it's done to complement moderator action, rather than as an alternative to it").

[Cerian Quilor]

Because its puppet whoring.

[Anime Daisuki]

This practice has been going around for some time, beginning with Eastern Roman Empire's maintenance of a fake 300 nation margin to get into top 10 back in 2006. Now the practice is getting from bad to ridiculous. Thousands of nations stored in regions like True North and Galapagos, it is not just crazy and mind blowing, it is also unfair to the other regions that recruit to climb the size rankings. Not to mention, moving a few thousand nations around within a short period of time (as had happened when they moved to Galapagos) could cause the game to slow down for the rest of us.

@Vinage: In addition to the issues you listed which are more from the macro perspective (since they pertain to gameplay and regional rankings), on a national level, these puppet nations also affect the daily nation rankings-- making our daily rankings less accurate than they would have been. Regardless whether you add this or not, the condemn would have my support, FOR.

[Icamera]

As a hardcore recruiter myself, I can't say I disagree with you about getting seriously annoyed when every new nation I telegram changes their flag seconds after being created and moves into True North another few seconds later. But I'm still not so sure if this is condemnation-worthy.

[Ivory Rhodes]

Why dont we just raid them...? Plus, this will have no effect on them. They are not part of the World Assembly.

[Welsh Cowboy]

Why is it wrong when we move our nations to the region we want to move them to, but it's okay for raiders and defenders to do the same thing, not only in the regions they invade and defend, but in their own puppet regions like Epogennick and Kyzikos?

[Jamie Anumia]

Why dont we just raid them...? Plus, this will have no effect on them. They are not part of the World Assembly.

Non-executive delegate (though you could take the delegacy technically..but no-one could do anything). Also, a region can't be a member of the WA and nations do not have to be WA to be condemned or commended.

[Crazy girl]

I would definitely scratch "game created regions", that's a rule 4 violation.

[Cerian Quilor]

Why is it wrong when we move our nations to the region we want to move them to, but it's okay for raiders and defenders to do the same thing, not only in the regions they invade and defend, but in their own puppet regions like Epogennick and Kyzikos?

Those aren't 'Raider/defender' puppet regions. They're jumping points.

[Delegate Vinage]

I would definitely scratch "game created regions", that's a rule 4 violation.

There was me thinking that was the only part of it that was legal

Cheers for the heads up!

Difference between those on the R/D side of things and this 'project' - we* don't maintain 5,000+. Personally I would raise an eyebrow at 100+ active nations being maintained. That said I don't know the typical number of nations that a 'hardcore' player of that side of the game would maintain. For me it was 3 at the most.

*We meaning those who partake in that side of the game. I have previously and so have some of those who have posted in this thread

[Globocom Enterprises]

Puppet Flooding is the future!

[Lyanna Stark]

I would definitely scratch "game created regions", that's a rule 4 violation.

There was me thinking that was the only part of it that was legal

Cheers for the heads up!

Difference between those on the R/D side of things and this 'project' - we* don't maintain 5,000+. Personally I would raise an eyebrow at 100+ active nations being maintained. That said I don't know the typical number of nations that a 'hardcore' player of that side of the game would maintain. For me it was 3 at the most.

*We meaning those who partake in that side of the game. I have previously and so have some of those who have posted in this thread

I have 114, but that's more because I -like- to have those puppets rather than actual need. I've used up to 27ish puppets in an update though when detagging and around 5-15 if my web is working decent and I'm awake for defending. So they are needed in that case.

Personally I think that this isn't worth a Condemn, though the region is rather annoying. I'd probably personaly abstain, if this nation was WA.

[Firstaria]

I think I will support this condemnation. Puppet states are an instrument that should be available in the current meta-game setting, but just filling a region with puppets to score a number is stupid and damages the server speed.

A puppet should have a reason to exist, not being a number and period, you are also killing names that could be used in future by other users. So the practice must be condemned or stopped at least.

[Paper Flowers]

I think I will support this condemnation. Puppet states are an instrument that should be available in the current meta-game setting, but just filling a region with puppets to score a number is stupid and damages the server speed.

A puppet should have a reason to exist, not being a number and period, you are also killing names that could be used in future by other users. So the practice must be condemned or stopped at least.

Maybe I've missed it, but where has anyone involved in True North said that they're doing it "to score a number"? The only people I've seen that have tagged it as that are the ones calling for a condemnation.

[Topdop]

I think that a thread in Technical would be more appropriate than a condemnation for this. I can't fathom any way that someone could be keeping all of these puppets alive without a script, and that's bullshit.

[Todd McCloud]

I think that a thread in Technical would be more appropriate than a condemnation for this. I can't fathom any way that someone could be keeping all of these puppets alive without a script, and that's bullshit.

Exactly. It sounds like to me at least they could be running a script to make these nations, but I don't know. Maybe I just want to believe that, because someone who spends all their time creating 5,000+ nations by hand just seems a little sad.

[Paper Flowers]

Exactly. It sounds like to me at least they could be running a script to make these nations, but I don't know. Maybe I just want to believe that, because someone who spends all their time creating 5,000+ nations by hand just seems a little sad.

*cough cough*