25,000 Chicago teachers strike

[Wikkiwallana]

Teachers are shit - they are an under-performing, overpaid demographic

Well, I've got laughing material for the next week, thanks.

[Zijeme]

teachers are lazy sacks of shit

teachers are, in general, the scum of the modern workforce

students are probably better off not having these public-sector sycophants poison their minds.

lol

[ReVampire Kingdom]

I cannot believe the kind of crap I am reading here. What the hell is wrong with people. Are you guys that insane to not realize that the system is messed up and unless you take the time to fix it you will get nowhere.

Teachers unions are QUITE necessary. If you think teachers should not have a say in anything that happens then you should probably avoid the system all together. Your system is horrible and I mean competely horrible. Your kids are way TOO free and the work is way too easy and not challenging at all. AND YOU still have kids failing horribly. I stand with these teachers here because I know what some go through. If they are even have 30% of the dedication the ones I had did. Then they deserve the right to be listened to and have the benfits they deserve.

Good luck americans as you continue to fall futher down the ladder. You may soon fall behind jaimaica.

[Transhuman Proteus]

I fail to see how missing a few days of school would make one unable to get a job later in life.


Edit: Or are you saying child labor laws are bad?

Seriously?

I'm saying that a lot of these children should be working instead of going to school.

Which ones? Have you perfected some form of potential test so you can cull children from going to school, locking them out of the chance of ever getting a job that needs education (therefore most middle class jobs or the highest paying jobs)?

And if Chicago already has a 9% unemployment rate what jobs should they be doing? Again remembering they haven't finished school and wont have any higher education.

[Socialist EU]

I'm not familiar with why they are striking. What would the cost of living be in Chicago? Where I'm at- $71,000 a year would be considered wealthy. I'd love to just make $30,000 each year, if I only had to provide for myself.

"The average US teacher made $49,720 in 2009 according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. As examples, let's use Illinois, a better-off state, and South Dakota, the worst state for teachers.

IL: $57,283.33
SD: $37,536.67

I'm not sure where you're getting this $75K+ figure."

http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=1798940
RMB post by The World Socialist Republic

[Ethel mermania]

They are striking over money and accountability.

Based on the stink the teachers unions in ny state are making over performance reviews, my guess would be the main bone of contention is the later.

Maybe someone from chicago can comment?

[Bottle]

They are striking over money and accountability.

Based on the stink the teachers unions in ny state are making over performance reviews, my guess would be the main bone of contention is the later.

Maybe someone from chicago can comment?

You can directly download the list of demands from the teachers, either as a one-page summary or the full 40-odd pages:

http://www.ctunet.com/quest-center/rese ... ts-deserve

I think it's pretty telling that so many people fixate on the fact that, yes, the teachers would like better pay, when that's just one item out of many. The teachers are also demanding things like more teacher's aids who can help with special needs kids, classroom supplies, smaller class sizes, and schools that aren't full of asbestos.

THOSE SELFISH ASSHOLES!

[Ifreann]

They are striking over money and accountability.

Based on the stink the teachers unions in ny state are making over performance reviews, my guess would be the main bone of contention is the later.

Maybe someone from chicago can comment?

You can directly download the list of demands from the teachers, either as a one-page summary or the full 40-odd pages:

http://www.ctunet.com/quest-center/rese ... ts-deserve

I think it's pretty telling that so many people fixate on the fact that, yes, the teachers would like better pay, when that's just one item out of many. The teachers are also demanding things like more teacher's aids who can help with special needs kids, classroom supplies, smaller class sizes, and schools that aren't full of asbestos.

THOSE SELFISH ASSHOLES!

If they don't care enough about teaching that they'll expose themselves to asbestos then they don't deserve jobs, obviously.

[Ethel mermania]

They are striking over money and accountability.

Based on the stink the teachers unions in ny state are making over performance reviews, my guess would be the main bone of contention is the later.

Maybe someone from chicago can comment?

You can directly download the list of demands from the teachers, either as a one-page summary or the full 40-odd pages:

http://www.ctunet.com/quest-center/rese ... ts-deserve

I think it's pretty telling that so many people fixate on the fact that, yes, the teachers would like better pay, when that's just one item out of many. The teachers are also demanding things like more teacher's aids who can help with special needs kids, classroom supplies, smaller class sizes, and schools that aren't full of asbestos.

THOSE SELFISH ASSHOLES!

The one pager was a manifesto, not a contract position. Hiking school taxes and ending arphaid are generally not part of a teacher - school board negotiations.

[Bottle]

You can directly download the list of demands from the teachers, either as a one-page summary or the full 40-odd pages:

http://www.ctunet.com/quest-center/rese ... ts-deserve

I think it's pretty telling that so many people fixate on the fact that, yes, the teachers would like better pay, when that's just one item out of many. The teachers are also demanding things like more teacher's aids who can help with special needs kids, classroom supplies, smaller class sizes, and schools that aren't full of asbestos.

THOSE SELFISH ASSHOLES!

The one pager was a manifesto, not a contract position. Hiking school taxes and ending arphaid are generally not part of a teacher - school board negotiations.

So the one-page summary did not sufficiently lay out the full contract position and negotiations? Well I'll be.

Good to know the teachers can't win, though. If they stick to fighting for their own pay and benefits, then they're selfish. If they try to express broader concerns about how the education system interferes with their ability to educate, then they're just issuing a "manifesto."

If they provide a short summary document for our soundbite loving press then they'll be criticized for it being too simplistic and vague, but you can be sure that if they hadn't offered one then everyone would just be saying "You expect me to read that whole 40-odd-page document?! Just give me the broad strokes!"

[Ethel mermania]

The one pager was a manifesto, not a contract position. Hiking school taxes and ending arphaid are generally not part of a teacher - school board negotiations.

So the one-page summary did not sufficiently lay out the full contract position and negotiations? Well I'll be.

Good to know the teachers can't win, though. If they stick to fighting for their own pay and benefits, then they're selfish. If they try to express broader concerns about how the education system interferes with their ability to educate, then they're just issuing a "manifesto."

If they provide a short summary document for our soundbite loving press then they'll be criticized for it being too simplistic and vague, but you can be sure that if they hadn't offered one then everyone would just be saying "You expect me to read that whole 40-odd-page document?! Just give me the broad strokes!"

Your thr one who said it outlines their position, it doesn't. Now your jumping all over me for that, thanks.

I originally asked about the accountability portion, which is mentioned in the article, but not in the one pager. You did not answer about that. Are you in chicago? Do you have any first hand experience with the issue?


Also I am not partucularly interested in the wages as the article said the board and the teachers were close on that issue.

[Greed and Death]

The one pager was a manifesto, not a contract position. Hiking school taxes and ending arphaid are generally not part of a teacher - school board negotiations.

So the one-page summary did not sufficiently lay out the full contract position and negotiations? Well I'll be.

Good to know the teachers can't win, though. If they stick to fighting for their own pay and benefits, then they're selfish. If they try to express broader concerns about how the education system interferes with their ability to educate, then they're just issuing a "manifesto."

If they provide a short summary document for our soundbite loving press then they'll be criticized for it being too simplistic and vague, but you can be sure that if they hadn't offered one then everyone would just be saying "You expect me to read that whole 40-odd-page document?! Just give me the broad strokes!"

Teachers have every right to be selfish. It is a contract negotiation.

[Northern Dominus]

So the one-page summary did not sufficiently lay out the full contract position and negotiations? Well I'll be.

Good to know the teachers can't win, though. If they stick to fighting for their own pay and benefits, then they're selfish. If they try to express broader concerns about how the education system interferes with their ability to educate, then they're just issuing a "manifesto."

If they provide a short summary document for our soundbite loving press then they'll be criticized for it being too simplistic and vague, but you can be sure that if they hadn't offered one then everyone would just be saying "You expect me to read that whole 40-odd-page document?! Just give me the broad strokes!"

Your thr one who said it outlines their position, it doesn't. Now your jumping all over me for that, thanks.

I originally asked about the accountability portion, which is mentioned in the article, but not in the one pager. You did not answer about that. Are you in chicago? Do you have any first hand experience with the issue?


Also I am not partucularly interested in the wages as the article said the board and the teachers were close on that issue.

Again (and again and again), the article said that the wage issue was pretty much involved, the issue was one of job security. The school districts here have been shutting down certain schools, particularly in low and mixed-income neighborhoods and that has lead to a ballooning of class sizes. The bone of contention is that Hizzoner wants performance reviews, and the traditional method of determining how "good" a teacher is doing is via standardized testing.

Two issues with that. First, larger class sizes plus lack of additional staff such as counselors, nurses, and even principals means that teachers have to devote more time to attempting to maintain order rather than actually teach. Also, time and again it's been proven that the only thing standardized testing does is prove that students can study for a particular test. So it's not exactly a measure of teacher competency anyway. The issue with that is a skewed test result would have the consequence of a teacher losing their job because of it, regardless of the class or the way they instruct being more effective than teaching for the test in the first place.

So in the end this argument isn't just for ensure that jobs aren't lost over a silly and unproven method of measuring, it's an attempt to secure the educational future of the youth of Chicago.

[Skywarp]

I'll just keep posting this until you respond.

Prove that:
A. There are 25,000 unemployed teachers in Chicago.
B. They are as good as the currently employed teachers.


I'll wait.

Let me get this straight. With at least 3/4 of a million unemployed people in the Chicago area, as seen here (http://www.google.com/publicdata/explor ... employment), you think it is unlikely that thousands may be qualified teachers?

I'm going to be watching your posts.

It depends on what one means by "qualified". If by qualified one means someone with the appropriate degrees and licensure, most likely not; if one means a warm body with a college degree, probably.

[Ethel mermania]

Your thr one who said it outlines their position, it doesn't. Now your jumping all over me for that, thanks.

I originally asked about the accountability portion, which is mentioned in the article, but not in the one pager. You did not answer about that. Are you in chicago? Do you have any first hand experience with the issue?


Also I am not partucularly interested in the wages as the article said the board and the teachers were close on that issue.

Again (and again and again), the article said that the wage issue was pretty much involved, the issue was one of job security. The school districts here have been shutting down certain schools, particularly in low and mixed-income neighborhoods and that has lead to a ballooning of class sizes. The bone of contention is that Hizzoner wants performance reviews, and the traditional method of determining how "good" a teacher is doing is via standardized testing.

Two issues with that. First, larger class sizes plus lack of additional staff such as counselors, nurses, and even principals means that teachers have to devote more time to attempting to maintain order rather than actually teach. Also, time and again it's been proven that the only thing standardized testing does is prove that students can study for a particular test. So it's not exactly a measure of teacher competency anyway. The issue with that is a skewed test result would have the consequence of a teacher losing their job because of it, regardless of the class or the way they instruct being more effective than teaching for the test in the first place.

So in the end this argument isn't just for ensure that jobs aren't lost over a silly and unproven method of measuring, it's an attempt to secure the educational future of the youth of Chicago.

We to a point are having similar issues in ny. The question becomes, how do you evaluate teachers and fire the bad ones, and encourage the good ones.

You have to have some sort of measuring stick, that stick needs to be unbiased to create a level playing field. From what I have read the chicago system was to use the test scores as 40% of the evaluation score. I agree standardized scores are an imperfect barometer of teacher performance, but then what do you use.

[Northern Dominus]

Again (and again and again), the article said that the wage issue was pretty much involved, the issue was one of job security. The school districts here have been shutting down certain schools, particularly in low and mixed-income neighborhoods and that has lead to a ballooning of class sizes. The bone of contention is that Hizzoner wants performance reviews, and the traditional method of determining how "good" a teacher is doing is via standardized testing.

Two issues with that. First, larger class sizes plus lack of additional staff such as counselors, nurses, and even principals means that teachers have to devote more time to attempting to maintain order rather than actually teach. Also, time and again it's been proven that the only thing standardized testing does is prove that students can study for a particular test. So it's not exactly a measure of teacher competency anyway. The issue with that is a skewed test result would have the consequence of a teacher losing their job because of it, regardless of the class or the way they instruct being more effective than teaching for the test in the first place.

So in the end this argument isn't just for ensure that jobs aren't lost over a silly and unproven method of measuring, it's an attempt to secure the educational future of the youth of Chicago.

We to a point are having similar issues in ny. The question becomes, how do you evaluate teachers and fire the bad ones, and encourage the good ones.

You have to have some sort of measuring stick, that stick needs to be unbiased to create a level playing field. From what I have read the chicago system was to use the test scores as 40% of the evaluation score. I agree standardized scores are an imperfect barometer of teacher performance, but then what do you use.

Right now the whole concept of "evaluation" is irrelevant thanks to the current state of the school system. The whole point is that instituting any sort of evaluation system that is used as criteria for continued employment, however impartial or effective it might be would be grossly unfair and negligent to say the least.

I'm not saying that there has to be an effective way to determine which teachers are actually teaching and teaching well vs. who is riding their tenure into retirement, but until the school system is infused with the support staff, facilities, and supplies it so desperately needs any sort of evaluation system would produce only corrupted and non-applicable results in the first place.

[Skywarp]

Let me get this straight. With at least 3/4 of a million unemployed people in the Chicago area, as seen here (http://www.google.com/publicdata/explor ... employment), you think it is unlikely that thousands may be qualified teachers?

I'm going to be watching your posts.

Naturally every single unemployed person in Chicago is qualified to be a teacher. Cause anyone can do it amirte? Lousy freeloading teachers demanding a pay increase proportional to the amount of extra work being asked of them. Why wont they just babysit my spawn for free and be thankful for the privileged?

I also love the propensity to treat teachers like factory workers and the kids like a product on the assembly line (gauging teachers by kids SOL scores).... as if a teacher is comparable to a line worker at the widget factory.... as if the widget assembler needs to worry about the widgets parents complaining about the bolt or screw being used and refusing to assist in the widget not leaving its bolts back at the factory, or complaining when the widget is required to take its bolts home or insist that the widgets off time sports performance should take precedence over education because the widget will just make it to the National Widget League.

[Northern Dominus]

Naturally every single unemployed person in Chicago is qualified to be a teacher. Cause anyone can do it amirte? Lousy freeloading teachers demanding a pay increase proportional to the amount of extra work being asked of them. Why wont they just babysit my spawn for free and be thankful for the privileged?

I also love the propensity to treat teachers like factory workers and the kids like a product on the assembly line (gauging teachers by kids SOL scores).... as if a teacher is comparable to a line worker at the widget factory.... as if the widget assembler needs to worry about the widgets parents complaining about the bolt or screw being used and refusing to assist in the widget not leaving its bolts back at the factory, or complaining when the widget is required to take its bolts home or insist that the widgets off time sports performance should take precedence over education because the widget will just make it to the National Widget League.

Notice the people who do the complaing are usually parents who rely on electronic babysitters to do most of the parenting in the first place...

But I digress, the "factory" model has been in place since the industrial revolution, so naturally our expectations are based upon that sort of model being successful, regardless of the march of technology and what it can do to help or hinder a child's education.

Sir Ken Robinson addressed this rather eloquently
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDZFcDGpL4U

[Socialist EU]

Your thr one who said it outlines their position, it doesn't. Now your jumping all over me for that, thanks.

I originally asked about the accountability portion, which is mentioned in the article, but not in the one pager. You did not answer about that. Are you in chicago? Do you have any first hand experience with the issue?


Also I am not partucularly interested in the wages as the article said the board and the teachers were close on that issue.

Again (and again and again), the article said that the wage issue was pretty much involved, the issue was one of job security. The school districts here have been shutting down certain schools, particularly in low and mixed-income neighborhoods and that has lead to a ballooning of class sizes. The bone of contention is that Hizzoner wants performance reviews, and the traditional method of determining how "good" a teacher is doing is via standardized testing.

Two issues with that. First, larger class sizes plus lack of additional staff such as counselors, nurses, and even principals means that teachers have to devote more time to attempting to maintain order rather than actually teach. Also, time and again it's been proven that the only thing standardized testing does is prove that students can study for a particular test. So it's not exactly a measure of teacher competency anyway. The issue with that is a skewed test result would have the consequence of a teacher losing their job because of it, regardless of the class or the way they instruct being more effective than teaching for the test in the first place.

So in the end this argument isn't just for ensure that jobs aren't lost over a silly and unproven method of measuring, it's an attempt to secure the educational future of the youth of Chicago.

Correct, I think most of us aware that this is about laying off teachers, hence the arbitrary method of measuring teaching performance. The students abilities and self-development are reduced to metrics. Meanwhile, those who teach in the Chicago suburbs deal with smaller class sizes.

[Anarchists communists and other pinkos]

its funny how in theoretical discussions right wingers insist selfishness is the driving force of human beings and when anyone goes on strike they point the finger and shriek 'selfish!' until the cows come home. Should'nt you all just cooly sit back and say "well thats just the way humans are there's no point trying to change it"

[Ethel mermania]

We to a point are having similar issues in ny. The question becomes, how do you evaluate teachers and fire the bad ones, and encourage the good ones.

You have to have some sort of measuring stick, that stick needs to be unbiased to create a level playing field. From what I have read the chicago system was to use the test scores as 40% of the evaluation score. I agree standardized scores are an imperfect barometer of teacher performance, but then what do you use.

Right now the whole concept of "evaluation" is irrelevant thanks to the current state of the school system. The whole point is that instituting any sort of evaluation system that is used as criteria for continued employment, however impartial or effective it might be would be grossly unfair and negligent to say the least.

I'm not saying that there has to be an effective way to determine which teachers are actually teaching and teaching well vs. who is riding their tenure into retirement, but until the school system is infused with the support staff, facilities, and supplies it so desperately needs any sort of evaluation system would produce only corrupted and non-applicable results in the first place.

I read in another article that the school system was 3 billion dollars in the red this year. So i do not know i see any new money coming in. (again you could answer that quesiton better than i can).

In NYC they are closing poor performing schools as well, but in their place in the same building they are opening smaller schools whch tend to be better staffed than the larger ones they are replacing. Which you indicate is not happening in chicago.

One quesiton i guess we could ask is how much is the per pupil spending in chicago. If the answer is 5,000 per kid, your right it does not matter what they do, there simply is not enough funding. If the number is 12,000 per kid, then there is a lot seriously wrong there , but money is not one of the issues.

[Frisivisia]

This is the reason education is failing in the US. The unions buckled in the 90's and now the education system is shit.

[Herskerstad]

What a perfect opportunity to utilize a lockout.

[Free Soviets]

its funny how in theoretical discussions right wingers insist selfishness is the driving force of human beings and when anyone goes on strike they point the finger and shriek 'selfish!' until the cows come home. Should'nt you all just cooly sit back and say "well thats just the way humans are there's no point trying to change it"

no no no. only rich people have the right to be greedy. if bajilionaires don't get an extra $50million, they will has a sad and stay home to cry, thus ruining everything. but if regular people ever have access to more than $50k (if that!), they will immediately become lazy and shiftless, and just generally good for nothing. greed is good if and only if it comes from our social betters. everybody else should know their place and never make direct eye contact with our galtian overlords.

[Skywarp]

its funny how in theoretical discussions right wingers insist selfishness is the driving force of human beings and when anyone goes on strike they point the finger and shriek 'selfish!' until the cows come home. Should'nt you all just cooly sit back and say "well thats just the way humans are there's no point trying to change it"

no no no. only rich people have the right to be greedy. if bajilionaires don't get an extra $50million, they will has a sad and stay home to cry, thus ruining everything. but if regular people ever have access to more than $50k (if that!), they will immediately become lazy and shiftless, and just generally good for nothing. greed is good if and only if it comes from our social betters. everybody else should know their place and never make direct eye contact with our galtian overlords.

His error was the failure to realize that those outside of the upper-class are not human beings.