[DEFEATED] Conscientious objection to abortion

[Daarwyrth]

A generic staffer who self-identifies as the "Voice of the Tinhamptonian Delegation:" Dame Maria is being appropriately sarcastic here... possibly golden-meanly or whatever they call it these days. The Tinhamptonians have no intention of supporting this in queue or at vote.

"Do give Delegate-Ambassador Smith my regards, and those of my Queen."

[Nondenominational Christian Commonwealth]

I am not a WA Delegate, but I am 100% in favor of this bill. My government as well as the majority of my legislature is pro-life. We want to be a part of the WA, but still, maintain the right to decide our future. If this makes it to the floor, we will support it.

[Daarwyrth]

I am not a WA Delegate, but I am 100% in favor of this bill. My government as well as the majority of my legislature is pro-life. We want to be a part of the WA, but still, maintain the right to decide our future. If this makes it to the floor, we will support it.

"As long as that future means you stay compliant with all resolutions of the World Assembly, including those that demand your people have access to abortion, then you shouldn't worry. There's no in-between, Ambassador, only compliance or resignation," Maria vyn Nysen chuckles. "And well, I suppose devastating fines in cases of irresponsibly stubborn members."

[Barfleur]

Sincludan Prime Ambassador Harrison Raiken: "I believe it would be wise to allow for the conscientious objection to any procedure. I see no reason for abortion to be the only procedure this applies to."

Maria vyn Nysen rolled her eyes. "Oh yes, let's give doctors the right to refuse all sorts of treatment to others, because that is such a good idea. It's not like that would open the door for discrimination and poor medical conduct."

The Daarwyrthian representative crossed her arms. "Is that what you want, Ambassador? To give doctors the ability to refuse treatment to someone because they're homosexual? A woman? Because they have a different skin colour? Is that the kind of medical care you wish to see across the member states of the World Assembly?"

"Ambassador, our colleague from Sincluda indicated a desire to allow for conscientious objection to any procedure, not to any patient. Nevertheless, while we remain in support of the proposal, we recognize not every nation is of the same mind."

I am not a WA Delegate, but I am 100% in favor of this bill. My government as well as the majority of my legislature is pro-life. We want to be a part of the WA, but still, maintain the right to decide our future. If this makes it to the floor, we will support it.

"I give you a hearty welcome to this honorable body."

[Laka Strolistandiler]

Oe Ishi: Laka Strolistandiler and it’s people will give this legislation full support, should it come to vote. Almost all of people hardly oppose infanticide, that is abortion and, finally, a resolution to strengthen the cause had arrived! We will do whatever we can to help stop the murder of unborn children. And, getting from words to actions we...- she is interrupted by assistant sub administrator, Eva Hepburn-Curry-IV.
Eva Hepburn-Curry-IV: Weel, it's aboot time something wis dane aboot this damned abortion fankle! i’ve bin up ‘n arms aroond this subject recently. Ambassador!- she would add in a heavy Scottish accent, raising her fist into the air,- Ye hae mah stowed oot support. If there’s anythin' you’ll need fae me tae hulp wi' this draft, ye'v git it! ah kin gie ye anythin', except fur mah mercedes ssk, mah purity 'n' mah damned award wakizashi!
Oe would tilt her head, adding with a grin of salt: And THIS person is supposed to be a “reasonable and logical assistant”... Sometimes I really think that keeping this technician job wasn’t such a bad thing after all...

[Wallenburg]

Eva Hepburn-Curry-IV: Weel, it's aboot time something wis dane aboot this damned abortion fankle! i’ve bin up ‘n arms aroond this subject recently. Ambassador!- she would add in a heavy Scottish accent, raising her fist into the air,- Ye hae mah stowed oot support. If there’s anythin' you’ll need fae me tae hulp wi' this draft, ye'v git it! ah kin gie ye anythin', except fur mah mercedes ssk, mah purity 'n' mah damned award wakizashi!

Hi, Ms. Rowling, I didn't know you were anti-abortion now.

[Daarwyrth]

"Ambassador, our colleague from Sincluda indicated a desire to allow for conscientious objection to any procedure, not to any patient. Nevertheless, while we remain in support of the proposal, we recognize not every nation is of the same mind."

"Oh please, it would be an open door to deny to perform a procedure because of the patient. A homosexual patient may come before a doctor, who in turn will state 'I consciously object to this procedure being performed on this patient'. It only requires a different, more creative phrasing of words."

[Laka Strolistandiler]

Eva Hepburn-Curry-IV: Weel, it's aboot time something wis dane aboot this damned abortion fankle! i’ve bin up ‘n arms aroond this subject recently. Ambassador!- she would add in a heavy Scottish accent, raising her fist into the air,- Ye hae mah stowed oot support. If there’s anythin' you’ll need fae me tae hulp wi' this draft, ye'v git it! ah kin gie ye anythin', except fur mah mercedes ssk, mah purity 'n' mah damned award wakizashi!

Hi, Ms. Rowling, I didn't know you were anti-abortion now.

Eva Hepburn-Curry-IV: Wha th' hell is Mass Rowling? That wierd-witted lassie wha wrote thae wierd tales 'bout a magical laddie?
(OOC: I think a second WA Ambassador that is far more erratic and straightforward than Oe would be a good idea, taking into consideration that scotts are third largest ethnic groups in LS and one of the most conservative ones)

[Barfleur]

"Ambassador, our colleague from Sincluda indicated a desire to allow for conscientious objection to any procedure, not to any patient. Nevertheless, while we remain in support of the proposal, we recognize not every nation is of the same mind."

"Oh please, it would be an open door to deny to perform a procedure because of the patient. A homosexual patient may come before a doctor, who in turn will state 'I consciously object to this procedure being performed on this patient'. It only requires a different, more creative phrasing of words."

"And that same doctor, pursuant to section 2, would be required to refer that same patient to a place where they can obtain the required services. Not to mention, under section 1, the doctor wouldn't even be able to register an objection 'on this patient'--only on the procedure, which the patient could very easily access somewhere else."

[The New Bluestocking Homeland]

"We feel uncomfortable with the idea of granting "conscientious objection" to abortion, as, while we encourage religious and moral freedom, it is our sincere belief that no moral objection -- no matter how sincerely it might be held -- gives one the right to disregard the bodily sanctity and health of another sentient individual.

"It is also our feeling that the language used could allow doctors who conscientiously object to refuse a potentially life-saving abortion until the last possible moment, by which time it might be too late. We suggest far stronger language, for the protection of the pregnant patient, in both articles 1 and 2 (to ensure that conscientious objectors to abortion have no latitude in what "appropriate services" to refer women seeking abortion to). We suggest:

1. No health care provider in any member nation who expresses a bona fide conscientious or religious objection to abortion may be required to perform or assist in any abortion, provided that such objection is communicated publicly in advance and that such objection does not impose a substantial burden on access of necessary treatment to preserve life or prevent severe permanent injury.
2. Health care providers, when exercising rights under section 1, must refer persons seeking an abortion to appropriate resources to access such services.

have some small rewordings, perhaps:

1. No health care provider in any member nation who expresses a bona fide conscientious or religious objection to abortion may be required to perform or assist in any abortion, provided that such objection is communicated publicly in advance and in the understanding that such rights are waived in should delay threaten a patient's life or risk severe permanent injury.
2. Health care providers, when exercising rights under section 1, must refer persons seeking an abortion to services offering that provision.

"The waiving of such rights in an emergency would ensure that pregnant patients' rights, not only the their legal right to abortion, but also to high quality healthcare, is paramount, while also ensuring that physicians do not have to assist in any non-lifesaving procedures. This seems like a fair way to balance these rights, and also prevent loop-holing.

"We are very worried about voting for something that we fear may lead to loophole abuse."

[Imperium Anglorum]

Bump.

[The Python]

Bump.

Probably ready for last call to be honest

[Wallenburg]

Bump.

Probably ready for last call to be honest

Last call isn't a real thing. You're either drafting or you aren't.

[Thermodolia]

"The new language is unsatisfactory, but less so than what it replaces. My office will not support this. If a physician goes into a particular line of work, they have no right to walk away from it because they find practicing medicine revolting."

But wouldn’t them walking away from it be better than forcing them to do something that they might not do? Sabotage is always a possibility ambassador. And door id rather keep firmly shut.

[Thermodolia]

"Ambassador, I find this line of reasoning mildly concerning, and think it would be beneficial for the drafting process to elaborate, if you are willing.

"While patient wishes are highly relevant, a doctor is as much a counselor of health and treatment as a hired scalpel, and with that necessarily comes some limited freedom of conscience. Just like an attorney has a right to refuse representation or to, within reason, withdraw from a case when personal ethical conflicts arise, so too do doctors and nurses have some discretion regarding personal ethics. I think we can both agree that that discretion should never be particularly broad.

"Should a physician be bound to accept any patient that enters her practice?"

"If they are equipped and trained to provide the care the patient needs, then yes, I rather think they should be bound to accept any patient. I am sure you agree that physicians should be prohibited from discriminating against patients based on reductive characteristics. I would hope you so agree when it's discrimination against patients with preexisting conditions. Someone suffering from diabetes or alcoholism or dysphoria has every bit as much of a right to receive treatment as someone who isn't. It seems to me that allowing physicians to refuse to treat patients who conduct themselves in a reasonable manner is just a door to all sorts of nightmare scenarios."

Personally ambassador id rather not have a doctor who hates my being be in charge of my care. Maybe it’s different to you but I personally would rather them to be not forced to take care of me, at least then I wouldn’t have to worry about weather or not they have my best interests at heart

[Wallenburg]

"The new language is unsatisfactory, but less so than what it replaces. My office will not support this. If a physician goes into a particular line of work, they have no right to walk away from it because they find practicing medicine revolting."

But wouldn’t them walking away from it be better than forcing them to do something that they might not do? Sabotage is always a possibility ambassador. And door id rather keep firmly shut.

"Sabotage is already illegal, ambassador. 'What if someone does something illegal because they're not allowed to do something else illegal?' isn't a valid concern."

"If they are equipped and trained to provide the care the patient needs, then yes, I rather think they should be bound to accept any patient. I am sure you agree that physicians should be prohibited from discriminating against patients based on reductive characteristics. I would hope you so agree when it's discrimination against patients with preexisting conditions. Someone suffering from diabetes or alcoholism or dysphoria has every bit as much of a right to receive treatment as someone who isn't. It seems to me that allowing physicians to refuse to treat patients who conduct themselves in a reasonable manner is just a door to all sorts of nightmare scenarios."

Personally ambassador id rather not have a doctor who hates my being be in charge of my care. Maybe it’s different to you but I personally would rather them to be not forced to take care of me, at least then I wouldn’t have to worry about weather or not they have my best interests at heart

"You're telling me that you'd rather not receive the care you need than receive it from someone who doesn't like you? That kind of preference is totally alien to me."

[Deacarsia]

I strongly support this proposal.

[Thermodolia]

But wouldn’t them walking away from it be better than forcing them to do something that they might not do? Sabotage is always a possibility ambassador. And door id rather keep firmly shut.

"Sabotage is already illegal, ambassador. 'What if someone does something illegal because they're not allowed to do something else illegal?' isn't a valid concern."

Personally ambassador id rather not have a doctor who hates my being be in charge of my care. Maybe it’s different to you but I personally would rather them to be not forced to take care of me, at least then I wouldn’t have to worry about weather or not they have my best interests at heart

"You're telling me that you'd rather not receive the care you need than receive it from someone who doesn't like you? That kind of preference is totally alien to me."

“No I’d rather receive care from someone who doesn’t mind who I am. Do you not have the ability to change doctors in your nation?”

[Wallenburg]

"Sabotage is already illegal, ambassador. 'What if someone does something illegal because they're not allowed to do something else illegal?' isn't a valid concern."

"You're telling me that you'd rather not receive the care you need than receive it from someone who doesn't like you? That kind of preference is totally alien to me."

“No I’d rather receive care from someone who doesn’t mind who I am. Do you not have the ability to change doctors in your nation?”

"The city life suits you, ambassador," mutters Trevanyika from the back of the drafting room.

Ogenbond clears his throat uncomfortably, then responds for himself. "The ability to pick and choose your doctor is a luxury many people don't have, ambassador, even in member states. Sometimes the only practice or practices in town consist of physicians who would refuse to perform an abortion if they were given the chance to do so. The Anglican delegation may pretend that this is addressed by the requirement that section 1 objections 'impose a substantial burden on access of necessary treatment to preserve life or prevent severe permanent injury', but it is not.

"The standard of 'necessary treatment to preserve life or prevent severe permanent injury' would clearly apply to all requests for abortion, since all pregnancies are potentially lethal and the likelihood of severe injury due to pregnancy is quite high even in medically advanced societies. However, we know that this is not how many ambassadors, including the author, read this. They have far higher bars to clear when it comes to the relevancy of such risks, and some will use those to obstruct patients from receiving necessary care.

"The standard of 'impose a substantial burden on access' to treatment is so insubstantial that you could drive a truck through it and the windshield would not even get foggy. Member states hostile to reproductive rights will interpret this to the detriment of patients who seek abortion care. The reality of the matter is that physicians are not going to face an onslaught of legal battles when their patients can easily accommodate a section 2 referral. My concern is that all this does is provide additional leeway for member states to limit abortion access, mostly by inconveniencing patients enough that they don't get the care they need."

[Blue Nagia]

"You're telling me that you'd rather not receive the care you need than receive it from someone who doesn't like you? That kind of preference is totally alien to me."

The Ambassador thumps up to the stand on stumpy lizard legs. "Apologies, Ambassador, for our current medical knowledge of the human form is limited. But from what we currently know, we believe that the medical state of a human during pregnancy is fragile... and also that humans who hold moral grudges are likely to do consciously or subconsciously do harm to other humans, especially those vulnerable and within their care. Thus, a pregnant human who places themselves in the care of a doctor with a moral grudge risks substantial psychological and physical harm.

Since an abortion is rarely needed immediately, and those cases in which it is immediately needed are classified by most nations as 'emergencies', a patient ought to be able to choose a doctor who has not been forced to care for them.

As such, we would reluctantly vote for this proposal, though noting to the Assembly that the need for people to defend themselves from resentful doctors bent on doing them harm is itself a troubling fact."

[Wallenburg]

"You're telling me that you'd rather not receive the care you need than receive it from someone who doesn't like you? That kind of preference is totally alien to me."

The Ambassador thumps up to the stand on stumpy lizard legs. "Apologies, Ambassador, for our current medical knowledge of the human form is limited. But from what we currently know, we believe that the medical state of a human during pregnancy is fragile... and also that humans who hold moral grudges are likely to do consciously or subconsciously do harm to other humans, especially those vulnerable and within their care. Thus, a pregnant human who places themselves in the care of a doctor with a moral grudge risks substantial psychological and physical harm.

Since an abortion is rarely needed immediately, and those cases in which it is immediately needed are classified by most nations as 'emergencies', a patient ought to be able to choose a doctor who has not been forced to care for them.

As such, we would reluctantly vote for this proposal, though noting to the Assembly that the need for people to defend themselves from resentful doctors bent on doing them harm is itself a troubling fact."

"Malpractice is already illegal, Ambassador..." Ogenbond takes a moment to read the reptilian diplomat's name, then lets his sentence end abruptly when he realizes some of the sounds in their name may not exist in Wallenburgian.

[Old Hope]

"Malpractice is already illegal, Ambassador..." Ogenbond takes a moment to read the reptilian diplomat's name, then lets his sentence end abruptly when he realizes some of the sounds in their name may not exist in Wallenburgian.

Yes, of course. However, someone who very much opposes abortion... do you really think they will be able to perform the procedure well?

[Sierra Lyricalia]

"Malpractice is already illegal, Ambassador..." Ogenbond takes a moment to read the reptilian diplomat's name, then lets his sentence end abruptly when he realizes some of the sounds in their name may not exist in Wallenburgian.

Yes, of course. However, someone who very much opposes abortion... do you really think they will be able to perform the procedure well?

"Yes."

[Laka Strolistandiler]

Yes, of course. However, someone who very much opposes abortion... do you really think they will be able to perform the procedure well?

"Yes."

Well, sir, let’s be realistic- if a person doesn’t want to perform abortions, sooner or later he will start “bothching” them on purpose. While they can’t do it de jure, because of WA law and all other things, de facto it is possible.

[Sincluda]

"Yes."

Well, sir, let’s be realistic- if a person doesn’t want to perform abortions, sooner or later he will start “bothching” them on purpose. While they can’t do it de jure, because of WA law and all other things, de facto it is possible.

Sincludan Prime Ambassador Harrison Raiken: "I doubt that most people who are uncomfortable performing an abortion actually took the time to learn it, and if they did, I doubt they would admit to being capable of performing the procedure."