by Marcianus » Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:58 pm
by United Sacredotia » Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:13 am
by Imperium Anglorum » Fri Aug 03, 2018 2:10 am
by The New California Republic » Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:03 am
Imperium Anglorum wrote:I can't see what banning circumcision would do other than discriminate against people of the Jewish faith.
by Sierra Lyricalia » Fri Aug 03, 2018 5:32 am
The New California Republic wrote:...EDIT: Just noticed clause 5 that allows for an exemption for treating medical conditions, but the wording seems to be a bit dismissive that any such medical conditions exist...
by Tinhampton » Fri Aug 03, 2018 8:57 am
Marcianus wrote:Noting the barbaric and undemocratic attack on human rights
by Marcianus » Fri Aug 03, 2018 10:33 am
Imperium Anglorum wrote:I can't see what banning circumcision would do other than discriminate against people of the Jewish faith.
by The New California Republic » Fri Aug 03, 2018 10:42 am
by Omigodtheykilledkenny » Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:02 am
Imperium Anglorum wrote:I can't see what banning circumcision would do other than discriminate against people of the Jewish faith.
by Liberimery » Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:50 pm
by The New California Republic » Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:53 pm
by Tinfect » Fri Aug 03, 2018 1:11 pm
The New California Republic wrote:Uh...Christians don't routinely circumcise their kids...
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by The New California Republic » Fri Aug 03, 2018 1:20 pm
by Liberimery » Fri Aug 03, 2018 1:42 pm
by New Gren Artle » Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:47 pm
by Podrovny » Fri Aug 03, 2018 6:40 pm
by Kowani » Fri Aug 03, 2018 7:19 pm
by Prydania » Sat Aug 04, 2018 12:17 am
Kowani wrote:I believe that Female Genital Mutilation is prohibited under the laws of the WA, and if it is not, I shall to draft a resolution.
While I admit that it is not the same, as FGM is much more dangerous and offers no benefit, I wonder what about the removal of parts of the vagina triggers so much more rage than the removal of certain parts of the penis.”
Kowani wrote:However, it is undeniable that the Jewish practice of uhh... I hope I pronounce this correctly...metztitzah b'peh. carries a health risk.”
Religion, as much as I personally despise it...
by Kowani » Sat Aug 04, 2018 12:39 am
Prydania wrote:Kowani wrote:I believe that Female Genital Mutilation is prohibited under the laws of the WA, and if it is not, I shall to draft a resolution.
"It is, Ambassador. Perhaps familiarize yourself with the relevant WA resolutions before speaking on the subject."While I admit that it is not the same, as FGM is much more dangerous and offers no benefit, I wonder what about the removal of parts of the vagina triggers so much more rage than the removal of certain parts of the penis.”
"You've answered your own quarry, Ambassador."Kowani wrote:However, it is undeniable that the Jewish practice of uhh... I hope I pronounce this correctly...metztitzah b'peh. carries a health risk.”
"Not so much, Ambassador. I would note that your condescending tone towards a faith that would be impacted by this illegal resolution isn't helpful."Religion, as much as I personally despise it...
"Your tact is lacking, Ambassador."
by Grays Harbor » Sat Aug 04, 2018 6:59 am
United Sacredotia wrote:This draft conflicts with GA# 141 Permit Male Circumcision. Inasmuch as it deals with the female circumcision, it duplicates the GA #114 On Female Genital Mutilation. If you want for WA to ban male circumcision, you need to write a repeal of GA #141.
by Naqil » Sat Aug 04, 2018 7:44 am
by Prydania » Sat Aug 04, 2018 9:33 am
Kowani wrote:“My point, Ambassador was that beyond the major health risks of FGM, one of the major reasons to oppose it is the violation of a woman’s right to bodily integrity. And yes, I realize that phrase is often linked to abortion, but that is a can of worms I think neither of us wants to open. However, male bodily integrity is very much violated during circumciscion, yet here the culture justifies it. I do not wish to see FGM legalized, nor do I wish to say that the two are comparable in scale and effects. Merely the ideological positions.
Now, as for the health risks, would you like me to provide sources, or will rhetoric suffice?
Kowani wrote:Now, circumcision can actually have medical benefits, as the TNCR so kindly noted. However, it is undeniable that the Jewish practice of uhh... I hope I pronounce this correctly...metztitzah b'peh. carries a health risk.”
You mentioned something about how the culture would be negatively impacted by the resolution.” “Ambassador, due to the smorgasbord of cultures here at the WA, I would be hard pressed to find a resolution that didn’t negatively affect one.
“I assume you consider the human sacrifices of the Aztecs to be negative, yet that was a cultural practice.
by Kowani » Sat Aug 04, 2018 12:12 pm
by Prydania » Sat Aug 04, 2018 1:02 pm
Kowani wrote:“Ahem: From your very own study, the first one you provided me: Wound infection 0.01%. Although rare, this can be more common with Plastibell, if instruments are not sterilized adequately, or if in a ritual Jewish ceremony the mohel performs metzitza b' pe (the sucking of blood from the would by mouth - which can also lead to herpes simplex type 1 infection). Ambassador, what you seem to misunderstand is that I do not decry the entire ceremony of bris melah. You and I both agreed that it can have health benefits. I have an issue with the part of it which has a risk of herpes, the metzitza b’pe. That is not a surgical complication, that is risk taking for the sake of culture. That is what I have an issue with. You say that most Jews do not do this. However, Ambassador, it is part of the ceremony, and this part right here is my main issue with it. I do not support a universal ban on circumcision. I would prefer, however, if this part of the ceremony was banned.”
“Now, you wanted sources. You may have some: http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/c ... 9.full.pdf
“Now, since you seem intent on dancing around my point, I shall explain. I do not mean to claim that human sacrifice, FGM, or circumcision are the same thing. Not at all. That is both intellectually dishonest and disrespectful to those who suffered those treatments. The point, I was trying to make. Ambassador, was that harmful cultural practices do not get a pass merely because they are part of a culture. My point, is that circumcision violates the right to bodily integrity. I do not care whether this benefits or hurts a religion, and unless a resolution appears attempting to ban religion outright, or allow discrimination because of it, I suspect it will be hard for me to care. And that, Ambassador, is where you fall short. FGM And Circumcision are not a 1 to 1 comparison, at least on the level of medical effects. However, in the issue of bodily integrity, they most certainly raise similar concerns.”
Should circumcision be done when medically necessary? Of course! Does circumcision have some benefits? Again, yes? Does the sucking of blood have any medical benefits? No, absolutely not. Does circumcision violate bodily integrity? Absolutely. And that, Ambassador, was the point I was trying to make.
by Kowani » Sat Aug 04, 2018 1:32 pm
Prydania wrote:Kowani wrote:“Ahem: From your very own study, the first one you provided me: Wound infection 0.01%. Although rare, this can be more common with Plastibell, if instruments are not sterilized adequately, or if in a ritual Jewish ceremony the mohel performs metzitza b' pe (the sucking of blood from the would by mouth - which can also lead to herpes simplex type 1 infection). Ambassador, what you seem to misunderstand is that I do not decry the entire ceremony of bris melah. You and I both agreed that it can have health benefits. I have an issue with the part of it which has a risk of herpes, the metzitza b’pe. That is not a surgical complication, that is risk taking for the sake of culture. That is what I have an issue with. You say that most Jews do not do this. However, Ambassador, it is part of the ceremony, and this part right here is my main issue with it. I do not support a universal ban on circumcision. I would prefer, however, if this part of the ceremony was banned.”
“Now, you wanted sources. You may have some: http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/c ... 9.full.pdf
“Your own argument and sources confirm that the risks for such a procedure are incredibly slim. Forgive me, but this seems insufficient to justify outlawing a central tenant of a relieous ceremony.”“Now, since you seem intent on dancing around my point, I shall explain. I do not mean to claim that human sacrifice, FGM, or circumcision are the same thing. Not at all. That is both intellectually dishonest and disrespectful to those who suffered those treatments. The point, I was trying to make. Ambassador, was that harmful cultural practices do not get a pass merely because they are part of a culture. My point, is that circumcision violates the right to bodily integrity. I do not care whether this benefits or hurts a religion, and unless a resolution appears attempting to ban religion outright, or allow discrimination because of it, I suspect it will be hard for me to care. And that, Ambassador, is where you fall short. FGM And Circumcision are not a 1 to 1 comparison, at least on the level of medical effects. However, in the issue of bodily integrity, they most certainly raise similar concerns.”
Should circumcision be done when medically necessary? Of course! Does circumcision have some benefits? Again, yes? Does the sucking of blood have any medical benefits? No, absolutely not. Does circumcision violate bodily integrity? Absolutely. And that, Ambassador, was the point I was trying to make.
“Ambassador, I know the point you were trying to make. My point is that any attempt to compare male circumcision to human sacrifice or FGM is absurd. Your assertion that they are equivalent in any way in terms of bodily autonomy is undercut by the very obvious fact that these are not the same by any stretch of the imagination.”
“I am not dancing around your point. I just find your overly-pedantic argument absurd when it attempts to use FGM and human sacrifice to argue in favour of outlawing a religeous ceremony whose complication rate is incredibly low.”
“I truly don’t care how much you resent religion Ambassador. The fact is that the WA does not confirm to your beliefs in that regard. As it stands? Male circumcision is protected by WA resolution. So continue wasting breath if you must. This proposal is dead upon arrival.”
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