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[Draft] Smoking in the WA, Schools, and Hospitals

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A Bright Future
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[Draft] Smoking in the WA, Schools, and Hospitals

Postby A Bright Future » Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:11 pm

Two draft proposals presented to this forum on smoking so far did not get to a vote but indicate enough support for reasonable smoking legislation at WA level to make this further assay worth considering:
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Smoking in the WA, Schools, and Hospitals
Category: Health | Area of Effect: Healthcare | Proposed by: A Bright Future

Acknowledging the overwhelming scientific evidence that tobacco smoke is extremely hazardous to health, particularly those individuals of ill health and minors,

Acknowledging also that smoking and second-hand smoking significantly raises the risks of health disorders including many types of cancer, diseases of respiratory and circulatory systems, miscarriage, and sudden infant death syndrome,

Noting that individuals are not banned from engaging in self-harming activities but that WA law institutes protections for individuals against harm by others, which here relates to second-hand smoke, and

Distraught that the tobacco industry has at times used profits from tobacco sales to bribe or influence national legislatures,

The General Assembly, therefore:

1. Defines, for the purposes of this resolution, “smoking” as the combustion of tobacco and the inhalation of resultant gasses or the release of said gasses to the surrounding air;

2. Prohibits smoking inside educational facilities for minors and any healthcare facilities in member states;

3. Strongly encourages member states to institute anti-smoking legislation more stringent than that of the provisions of this resolution while respecting international laws;

4. Mandates a ban on smoking inside buildings hosting the WA or any organization established under its auspices which the WA Office of Building Management will support by positioning abundant “No Smoking” signage in the WA headquarters and establishing outdoor smoking areas which:
  1. are placed so as to prevent tobacco smoke in significant concentrations from entering any buildings,
  2. are of sufficient size and quantity to service smokers employed at or visiting the WA headquarters,
  3. are well ventilated, and
  4. can be approached from the WA headquarters without exposure to precipitation;
5. Allows exemption from clause 4 for a space within the WA headquarters designated "The World Assembly Strangers' Bar";

6. Mandates member states to mandate their diplomats to be compliant with the provisions of this resolution;

7. Requires compliance with clauses 2 and 4 by no later than two years after the passing of this resolution;

8. Mandates the World Health Authority (WHA) to periodically review evidence on smoking and publish its findings in scientific terms as well as simple terms accessible to laypersons;

9. Mandates the WHA to periodically provide member states with evidence on the most effective means by which to reduce smoking and related health impacts; and

10. Mandates the WA Food and Drug Regulatory Agency to periodically consult with member states and the World Health Authority on safety and quality screening as well as labelling of tobacco products, to collect evidence on these measures, and to report its findings.


Is this an international issue? Yes!:
  • The international tobacco industry is larger than some small national governments. It has the means and motivation to influence to prevent reasonable smoking bans, such as in hospitals, schools, and kindergartens. Patients and children should be protected.
  • Neither Rights of Patients https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?p=391#p39 nor Quality in Health services https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?p=2439131#p2439131 protects patients and no current WA law protects children from smoke.
  • If the WA offices were smoke free and the WA were to institute at least a mild piece of anti-smoking legislation, this would provide important symbolic and institutional support for national anti-smoking initiatives.
  • WA regularly passed legislation protecting vulnerable groups and individual freedoms from harm and interference from other individuals.

Vuk Jeremić
ABF Representative to the WA

Edits I: fixed numbering, removed strength, amended first clause to clarify non-human angle, rearranged and reviewed introductory and concluding remarks surrounding the proposal.
Edits II: reference to clause 4 in clause 4 was changed to refer to clause 3.
Edits III: clause references in clause 8 corrected and clause 4 was rephrased for clarity.
Edits IV: title changed, FDRA clause added mention of evidence, smoking rooms exemption added to clause 3, amended language in clause 5 from "in excess of" to "more stringent than"
Edits V: removed temperature condition from WA smoking area and clarified "approached from WA headquarters" for WA smoking area.
Edits VI: substantial revisions.
Edits VII: replaced "extremely hazardous" to preamble 1, added second preamble on health, removed "significant" from clause 2.
Edits VIII: thread title: last call.
Edits IX: exemption for Strangers' Bar added.
Edits X: shorter title, tense harmonization in clause 4.
Edits XI: new medium length title.
Edits XII: reviewed definition, "negatively affected" -> "harmed", added clause overcoming diplomatic immunity, fixed 2 yr deadline.
Edits XIII: removed references to sapient species and exemption for member states with non-affected species.
Last edited by A Bright Future on Tue Jun 26, 2018 7:07 pm, edited 21 times in total.

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Kenmoria
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Postby Kenmoria » Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:32 pm

A Bright Future wrote:OOC: Looking for guidance on the strength. Does healthcare even have a strength? Not sure as it says examples to come…https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?p=8133611#p8133611)
(OOC: If a category has an AoE, it does not have a strength*, and vice versa. This means that the health category does not have a strength.)

*there is one exception to this rule: the environmental - all businesses subcategory has two strengths
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Zone 71
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Postby Zone 71 » Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:54 pm

OOC: "But muh vapes!"

This sounds like a bright start (Get it? Bright? Because your name is Bright Future?) to a proposal with an agreeable premise that I, and presumably many others would support. One of my biggest concerns, however, is whether this issue should be addressed by the World Assembly, or should simply be left up to individual nations to handle, as I believe that is a popular reason why many vote against a bill. What would you say constitutes smoking to be an international issue?

Personally, I wouldn't typically recognize smoking and such as an international issue, but I believe the WA has a moral obligation to intervene on the issue of alcohol and substance abuse in general through the dedication of further research into this crisis and better methods for rehabilitation, and subsidizing health and rehabilitation center. Regardless, I hope to see how far this proposal goes, and may support it when it is submitted.

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Postby Separatist Peoples » Fri Jun 08, 2018 1:04 pm

Bell takes a long drag on his cigar. "Opposed," he says, face suddenly obscured by a cloud of smoke. "There's no international utility here. Nations that pursue anti-smoking agendas can do this themselves. Nations that elect to leave the issue to individuals and private entities should be allowed to do so."

His Worshipfulness, the Most Unscrupulous, Plainly Deceitful, Dissembling, Strategicly Calculating Lord GA Secretariat, Authority on All Existence, Arbiter of Right, Toxic Globalist Dog, Dark Psychic Vampire, and Chief Populist Elitist!
Separatist Peoples should RESIGN!

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Aclion
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Postby Aclion » Fri Jun 08, 2018 1:35 pm

2. could be written in a less human centric manner? Instead of "humans" say "many species". Not all WA member states have human residents after all.

Additionally I'm somewhat concerned that this is limited to tobacco smoke. Other forms of smoking such as opium and marijuana can be just as harmful.

8. Prohibits smoking inside buildings hosting the WA or any organization established under its auspices,

"This isn't needed. It's impossible to harm a person within the WA. We have devices set up specifically to prevent that; watch"
*pulls out a pistol and fires several shots at Ambassador Bell, producing nothing but streaks of white smoke*
A popular Government, without popular information, or the means of acquiring it, is but a Prologue to a Farce or a Tragedy; or, perhaps both. - James Madison.

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Separatist Peoples
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Postby Separatist Peoples » Fri Jun 08, 2018 1:43 pm

Bell sighs and rubs his ears gingerly. "Some people gotta overcompensate, I guess. You have any idea how loud it is to be on this end of one of those? I'll be sending you the invoice from my tinnitus guy."
Last edited by Separatist Peoples on Fri Jun 08, 2018 1:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Separatist Peoples should RESIGN!

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Sierra Lyricalia
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Postby Sierra Lyricalia » Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:42 pm

Aclion wrote:Additionally I'm somewhat concerned that this is limited to tobacco smoke. Other forms of smoking such as opium and marijuana can be just as harmful.


"Now, let's not get carried away. If nothing else, the extremely high addiction rate of tobacco users compared to cannabis users should put that comparison way beyond the WA's remit. If this is an international issue at all, then it's one in which the protection of children and hatchlings and whelps and whatever other words there are for offspring, is the primary if not the sole motivation. The most mandate you're likely to get passed, Ambassador, is the ban on smoking in or near school grounds."

Leo removes a small leather pouch from inside his suit jacket, and plops it on the desk in front of him. For a minute or so, he busies himself tightly rolling a pinch of disparate length small brown leaf strands into a small white paper, and, with a few small licks, twisting the ends closed. From the opposite inside pocket, he withdraws his silver-plated "FUCK {ideology}" lighter and sparks up his cigarette. Leo takes a puff and sighs happily on the exhale.

"Besides, I find it relaxing to take a load off in these busy and petty environs. I will fight to keep you from quashing that most venerable institution of law-making, the smoke-filled back room!"
Last edited by Sierra Lyricalia on Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Aclion
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Postby Aclion » Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:20 am

Separatist Peoples wrote:Bell sighs and rubs his ears gingerly. "Some people gotta overcompensate, I guess. You have any idea how loud it is to be on this end of one of those? I'll be sending you the invoice from my tinnitus guy."

"I just enjoy shooting at you."
A popular Government, without popular information, or the means of acquiring it, is but a Prologue to a Farce or a Tragedy; or, perhaps both. - James Madison.

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Separatist Peoples
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Postby Separatist Peoples » Sat Jun 09, 2018 4:11 am

Aclion wrote:
Separatist Peoples wrote:Bell sighs and rubs his ears gingerly. "Some people gotta overcompensate, I guess. You have any idea how loud it is to be on this end of one of those? I'll be sending you the invoice from my tinnitus guy."

"I just enjoy shooting at you."

"Well, they do say that violence is the last refuge of the incompetant."

His Worshipfulness, the Most Unscrupulous, Plainly Deceitful, Dissembling, Strategicly Calculating Lord GA Secretariat, Authority on All Existence, Arbiter of Right, Toxic Globalist Dog, Dark Psychic Vampire, and Chief Populist Elitist!
Separatist Peoples should RESIGN!

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A Bright Future
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Postby A Bright Future » Sat Jun 09, 2018 4:35 am

*stubs out cigarette and lights next one.*
My delegates,

Firstly, Aclion please stop shooting blanks. Your point about no harm in the WA makes little sense to me. I am very much of flesh and blood. What about the workers? *toasts security staff who look around awkwardly* The WA staff? The many tourists who come to visit this most smokey Assembly?
Regarding your point on human centric. Please consult in what is incorrectly numbered 6 and give me your thoughts.
Regarding other smokables. Yes these carry their own risks but smoking is for us humans so much more of a problem purely in terms of how many people do it. Note also that where tobacco is combusted in combination with weed this would fall under the relevant bans. The scope of this proposal is already quite broad.

Second, my delegates,
I have to say that I quite clearly give my reasons for why I see it as an international issue in the beginning of the post. Several of you ask me why I think it's an international issue and it makes me feel like you are not actually reading my post. Are you trying to say you don't find those reasons convincing? Should I elaborate on them? Put more in the preambs?

Regarding vapes. There is no combustion so they don't count as smoking. Vape away my delegate.

Regarding smokey backrooms. The proposal mandates for some serious upgrades to the facilities including some nice new smoking areas. Should we include nicer facilities? John le Carré decor?

Sierra Lyricalia if you accept the protections for children surely you see how that generalizes to the vulnerable including hospital patients.

separatist peoples regarding leaving it to the individual. Two points. this criticism could be applied to almost all the legislation here. The aim of a lot of it including this proposal is in fact to leave it to the individual. I don't think that applies to children and I don't believe it works as clearly here when you consider that most smokers do so because of their social environment not because they looked it up and reasoned about it and chose it. Also like I say in my introduction, which it seems nobody looked at, big tobacco has actively influenced legislators. This seeks to protect vulnerable citizens and provide accurate information to support whatever national efforts may exist.

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Kenmoria
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Postby Kenmoria » Sat Jun 09, 2018 5:19 am

A Bright Future wrote:Firstly, Aclion please stop shooting blanks. Your point about no harm in the WA makes little sense to me. I am very much of flesh and blood. What about the workers? *toasts security staff who look around awkwardly* The WA staff? The many tourists who come to visit this most smokey Assembly
(OOC: That's a roleplay thing to avoid someome from bringing in a suitcase nuke or something and blowing up the building. They're often called weapon nullifiers.)
Hello! I’m a GAer and NS Roleplayer from the United Kingdom.
My pronouns are he/him.
Any posts that I make as GenSec will be clearly marked as such and OOC. Conversely, my IC ambassador in the General Assembly is Ambassador Fortier. I’m always happy to discuss ideas about proposals, particularly if grammar or wording are in issue. I am also Executive Deputy Minister for the WA Ministry of TNP.
Kenmoria is an illiberal yet democratic nation pursuing the goals of communism in a semi-effective fashion. It has a very broad diplomatic presence despite being economically developing, mainly to seek help in recovering from the effect of a recent civil war. Read the factbook here for more information; perhaps, I will eventually finish it.

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A Bright Future
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Postby A Bright Future » Sat Jun 09, 2018 5:33 am

OOC:Ahh ... ok. Didn't realize that. Do they also apply to NPCs and chronic exposure to smoke?

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Aclion
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Postby Aclion » Sat Jun 09, 2018 5:53 am

A Bright Future wrote:*stubs out cigarette and lights next one.*
My delegates,

Firstly, Aclion please stop shooting blanks. Your point about no harm in the WA makes little sense to me. I am very much of flesh and blood. What about the workers? *toasts security staff who look around awkwardly* The WA staff? The many tourists who come to visit this most smokey Assembly?

"My point is WA buildings are equipped with devices that prevents harm to the occupants."
A Bright Future wrote:Regarding your point on human centric. Please consult in what is incorrectly numbered 6 and give me your thoughts.

It helps, since it means that the mandates won't be humancentric in effect, but it's still written from a human centric perspective.
A Bright Future wrote:Regarding other smokables. Yes these carry their own risks but smoking is for us humans so much more of a problem purely in terms of how many people do it. Note also that where tobacco is combusted in combination with weed this would fall under the relevant bans. The scope of this proposal is already quite broad.

I have to disagree with that. I'd be willing to bet that marijuana is much more prevalent in WA nations then tobacco(OOC: It's certainly more accepted then it is in real life judging by how many nations have the cannabis policy, unfortunately there's no tobacco policy to compare it to so ).

A Bright Future wrote:OOC:Ahh ... ok. Didn't realize that. Do they also apply to NPCs and chronic exposure to smoke?

It would be consistent, though the desired effect of the tobacco might still be there. Alcohol still gets us drunk after all, but we can't get liver damage.
Last edited by Aclion on Sat Jun 09, 2018 5:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
A popular Government, without popular information, or the means of acquiring it, is but a Prologue to a Farce or a Tragedy; or, perhaps both. - James Madison.

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Postby Grays Harbor » Sat Jun 09, 2018 6:14 am

No. If folks want to smoke, it ain’t none of your, anybody’s, business. The WA ain’t yer granny tellin’ you to eat all yer veggies or no dessert.
Everything you know about me is wrong. Or a rumor. Something like that.

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Postby Separatist Peoples » Sat Jun 09, 2018 7:47 am

A Bright Future wrote:
Second, my delegates,
I have to say that I quite clearly give my reasons for why I see it as an international issue in the beginning of the post. Several of you ask me why I think it's an international issue and it makes me feel like you are not actually reading my post. Are you trying to say you don't find those reasons convincing?

"Not remotely. I see no reason why domestic smoking lobbyists shouldn't be permitted, or not as the situation may be, to lobby in nations that permit it already."


Two points. this criticism could be applied to almost all the legislation here. The aim of a lot of it including this proposal is in fact to leave it to the individual.

"Your proposal hardly leaves the issue to the individual as to where to smoke. It encourages and enforces restrictions to that end. This is micromanagement."
I don't think that applies to children and I don't believe it works as clearly here when you consider that most smokers do so because of their social environment not because they looked it up and reasoned about it and chose it.

"They can make the choice to conform with their social environment. Or not."

Also like I say in my introduction, which it seems nobody looked at, big tobacco has actively influenced legislators.

"So have anti-smoker lobbyists."

This seeks to protect vulnerable citizens and provide accurate information to support whatever national efforts may exist.

"I don't see why anybody in the C.D.S.P. would care whether a foreign nation's anti-smoking efforts were failing. I don't think Bright citizens would care if our efforts went unsupported. This has no trans-national utility."
Last edited by Separatist Peoples on Sat Jun 09, 2018 7:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Separatist Peoples should RESIGN!

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A Bright Future
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Postby A Bright Future » Sat Jun 09, 2018 5:45 pm

Aclion Thank you. Re: Human-centric, ABF has no evidence on how tobacco effects non-humans so we will keep the operative clauses as is for now but will clarify in preambles. Re: marijuana and opium, I expect the delegate is right. Another proposal has recently been put out which deals with recreational drugs: https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?p=34166181#p34166181

Grays Harbour Controls on freedoms which affect others' freedoms are legitimate even for staunch libertarians. For our purposes, second-hand smokers (in particular vulnerable groups such as children and the hospitalized) have legitimate non-interference claims on smokers.

Separatist Peoples There are no bans on lobbyists in the present proposal.

We have thought further on the question of why smoking should be a WA issue and believe arguments posed in introduction still hold. Further, there are multiple instances of WA protecting vulnerable groups and providing international support. To name but a random handful:
Protecting Minority Languages: https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?p=33935167#p33935167
Public Health and Vaccications Act: https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?p=32922618#p32922618
Ban on Ritual Sacrifices: https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?p=33193438#p33193438
Restrictions on Hydraulic Fracturing: https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?p=33193440#p33193440
Rights of the Quarantined: https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?p=30624184#p30624184

ABF accepts that some countries will oppose any smoking legislation. We do maintain though, that the protections provided for in this proposal are legitimate and measured, and should be put to vote in the GA. We will likely submit the proposal in the coming days. In the meantime, we remain open to engage with any arguments other than claims that smoking is effectively a priori not an area for WA level legislation. We do not accept that.
Last edited by A Bright Future on Sat Jun 09, 2018 6:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Separatist Peoples » Sat Jun 09, 2018 5:50 pm

A Bright Future wrote:We do not accept that.


"I'm afraid I do not accept that it is, and will engage my own considerable counters against this attempt."

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Separatist Peoples should RESIGN!

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Zone 71
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Postby Zone 71 » Sat Jun 09, 2018 5:55 pm

A Bright Future wrote:We will likely submit the proposal in the coming days. In the meantime, we remain open to engage with any arguments other than claims that smoking is effectively a priori not an area for WA level legislation. We do not accept that.


OOC: While I, again, support the premise of this proposal, I will not even consider supporting it if it is rushed out and submitted prematurely.

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A Bright Future
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Postby A Bright Future » Sat Jun 09, 2018 6:01 pm

Zone 71 wrote:
A Bright Future wrote:We will likely submit the proposal in the coming days. In the meantime, we remain open to engage with any arguments other than claims that smoking is effectively a priori not an area for WA level legislation. We do not accept that.


OOC: While I, again, support the premise of this proposal, I will not even consider supporting it if it is rushed out and submitted prematurely.

Please give us further feedback which we commit to implementing rapidly.

Separatist Peoples wrote:
A Bright Future wrote:We do not accept that.


"I'm afraid I do not accept that it is, and will engage my own considerable counters against this attempt."

That is of course your prerogative.
Last edited by A Bright Future on Sat Jun 09, 2018 6:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Bananaistan
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Postby Bananaistan » Sat Jun 09, 2018 9:57 pm

"We also do not see the international utility of this half measure and we will oppose it."

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Kenmoria
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Postby Kenmoria » Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:41 am

"Clause 4 makes an exception for itself, and doesn't make sense."
Hello! I’m a GAer and NS Roleplayer from the United Kingdom.
My pronouns are he/him.
Any posts that I make as GenSec will be clearly marked as such and OOC. Conversely, my IC ambassador in the General Assembly is Ambassador Fortier. I’m always happy to discuss ideas about proposals, particularly if grammar or wording are in issue. I am also Executive Deputy Minister for the WA Ministry of TNP.
Kenmoria is an illiberal yet democratic nation pursuing the goals of communism in a semi-effective fashion. It has a very broad diplomatic presence despite being economically developing, mainly to seek help in recovering from the effect of a recent civil war. Read the factbook here for more information; perhaps, I will eventually finish it.

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A Bright Future
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Postby A Bright Future » Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:58 am

Could I ask the delegate from Bananaistan whether they oppose this proposal because it is a half measure and what they think would to make it a fully fledged measure?

Thanks to the Kenmoria delegation for pointing out the mistake with the numbering. It seems basic numbering among other things is not one of my strengths. Implemented. Could we ask if there are other reasons for which clause 4 now may not make sense? I am considering alternative phrasing for that clause for added clarity.
Last edited by A Bright Future on Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Kenmoria
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Postby Kenmoria » Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:09 am

A Bright Future wrote:Thanks to the Kenmoria delegation for pointing out the mistake with the numbering. It seems basic numbering among other things is not one of my strengths. Implemented. Could we ask if there are other reasons for which clause 4 now may not make sense? I am considering alternative phrasing for that clause for added clarity.

Another reason clause 4 may not make sense is that it uses the imprecise “there”, which could be read to mean the member state itself or the educational or healthcare facilities contained wherein.
Last edited by Kenmoria on Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
Hello! I’m a GAer and NS Roleplayer from the United Kingdom.
My pronouns are he/him.
Any posts that I make as GenSec will be clearly marked as such and OOC. Conversely, my IC ambassador in the General Assembly is Ambassador Fortier. I’m always happy to discuss ideas about proposals, particularly if grammar or wording are in issue. I am also Executive Deputy Minister for the WA Ministry of TNP.
Kenmoria is an illiberal yet democratic nation pursuing the goals of communism in a semi-effective fashion. It has a very broad diplomatic presence despite being economically developing, mainly to seek help in recovering from the effect of a recent civil war. Read the factbook here for more information; perhaps, I will eventually finish it.

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New Min
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Postby New Min » Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:25 pm

"I, the World Assembly Delegate of the United Socialist States of New Min, considering all arguments and fully aware of the need of international restrictions on smoking tobacco, hereby officially grant, in the name of our glorious General Secretary and the great and powerful Communist Party of New Min, total support to the draft as it currently is. Any changes to the draft might cause our great nation to stop its support."

Hereby signed and accepted by,
World Assembly Delegate, Leon Dostoyevsky ☭
MINISTER OF WORLD ASSEMBLY AFFAIRS
of The People's Republic of The Communist Bloc

Central Committee member
Justice on The People's Tribunal

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Kenmoria
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Postby Kenmoria » Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:51 pm

"You also have incorrect numbering in clause 8 - it allows a time frame to complete having a time frame."
Hello! I’m a GAer and NS Roleplayer from the United Kingdom.
My pronouns are he/him.
Any posts that I make as GenSec will be clearly marked as such and OOC. Conversely, my IC ambassador in the General Assembly is Ambassador Fortier. I’m always happy to discuss ideas about proposals, particularly if grammar or wording are in issue. I am also Executive Deputy Minister for the WA Ministry of TNP.
Kenmoria is an illiberal yet democratic nation pursuing the goals of communism in a semi-effective fashion. It has a very broad diplomatic presence despite being economically developing, mainly to seek help in recovering from the effect of a recent civil war. Read the factbook here for more information; perhaps, I will eventually finish it.

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