NationStates Post-Modern Tech Community Thread

[Vistora]

Would anyone have the specs for a Nuclear Powered tank? or some powerful air, water or land equipment?

Depends on two factors; how advanced you want the technology to be, and/or how much realism you are willing to sacrifice.

Unless you happen to exist on the far end of PMT, it's difficult to justify a nuclear tank from a purely technical standpoint. In that respect, I would concur with Thoricia that the best policy to create the stats yourself so that the tank makes "sense" insofar as its use is concerned. For example, it could have a theoretically infinite range and the energy capacity to juice advanced, high-energy weapon systems, but with the major caveats of being very large, heavy, and probably slow.

Would anyone have the specs for a Nuclear Powered tank? or some powerful air, water or land equipment?

A tank could run on a nuclear battery easily. A radioisotope battery could run for 10-20 years. It would generate electricity for an electric drive train. I have no idea why you want a tank that would run for 10 years, but have a chance to spread Strontium 90 or some other radioactive material over the battlefield. There is no reason that a radioisotope battery could not run a high powered electric turbine engine.

I'm pretty sure he's referring to full-scale nuclear reactors, not something that just about oozes into the definition of "nuclear power" by virtue of pedantry.

Moreover, I severely doubt atomic batteries even remotely approach the wattage required to power a tank in any respect.

[UniversalCommons]

In twenty years they very well might. Radioisotope batteries are already used in the Mars Rover. http://wordpress.mrreid.org/2011/12/14/ ... ar-batter/ which indicates they could be used in a vehicle. There is also discussion of betavoltaics being used in car batteries. http://www.electric-vehiclenews.com/201 ... loped.html I would think you would be available to power a light tank eventually. Of course there is the problem of Strontium 90 and dirty bombs. Betavoltaics are also being developed using tritium by the military as a power source.

[Vistora]

In twenty years they very well might. Radioisotope batteries are already used in the Mars Rover. http://wordpress.mrreid.org/2011/12/14/ ... ar-batter/ which indicates they could be used in a vehicle. There is also discussion of betavoltaics being used in car batteries. http://www.electric-vehiclenews.com/201 ... loped.html I would think you would be available to power a light tank eventually. Of course there is the problem of Strontium 90 and dirty bombs. Betavoltaics are also being developed using tritium by the military as a power source.

Perhaps, but unlike many technological power sources that may be improved atomic batteries face a hard-and-fast upper limit of power that can be drawn from it, determined by the decay rate of whatever given element you're using. That much is immutable and cannot be extrapolated. Atomic batteries convey the advantage of being exceptionally long-lasting, but providing a reliable power threshold to run a 60-tonne tank plus all onboard systems (including what may in the future be electrically-powered weapons) is a stretch.

[Thoricia]

In twenty years they very well might. Radioisotope batteries are already used in the Mars Rover. http://wordpress.mrreid.org/2011/12/14/ ... ar-batter/ which indicates they could be used in a vehicle. There is also discussion of betavoltaics being used in car batteries. http://www.electric-vehiclenews.com/201 ... loped.html I would think you would be available to power a light tank eventually. Of course there is the problem of Strontium 90 and dirty bombs. Betavoltaics are also being developed using tritium by the military as a power source.

Perhaps, but unlike many technological power sources that may be improved atomic batteries face a hard-and-fast upper limit of power that can be drawn from it, determined by the decay rate of whatever given element you're using. That much is immutable and cannot be extrapolated. Atomic batteries convey the advantage of being exceptionally long-lasting, but providing a reliable power threshold to run a 60-tonne tank plus all onboard systems (including what may in the future be electrically-powered weapons) is a stretch.

I'm fine with the whole nuclear battery idea even if it's handwave as some "unobtanium" isotope though it likely means it's used farther into the PMT future of things. However there should be some drawbacks I feel, things such as increasing the overall weight to whatever vehicles it's used in. It should be consistently used and explained as to why it's use was developed instead of other alternative means. I'd also imagine it's use in manufacturing would be also be more dangerous so depending on your nation this could either complicate manufacturing to ensure proper safety measures are taken or your workers have a higher exposure to it so there would be health complications in that aspect. I've always thought that if you're going to handwave things you need to fully explain them and strive for a balance as well as consistency.

[Thoricia]

So I have a question for everyone here, and this trends towards the more unrealistic side of things here so I'm well aware of that and there's no need tell me.

With the rise of people considering themselves animals or "otherkin" as they're called and with the possibilities of science in the future (again not realistic) people could be able to splice their DNA with animal genes to make themselves into an animal human hybrid.

My question is how would other nations react to this development within their nation? Would they outright been the practice? Would it be legal but not have popular support amongst the populace and have groups form against the hybrids? Would it be embraced? How would law enforcement deal with the problem of superhuman strength criminals or criminals that could camouflage themselves? And lastly would your nation's military take advantage of this?

[Vistora]

So I have a question for everyone here, and this trends towards the more unrealistic side of things here so I'm well aware of that and there's no need tell me.

With the rise of people considering themselves animals or "otherkin" as they're called and with the possibilities of science in the future (again not realistic) people could be able to splice their DNA with animal genes to make themselves into an animal human hybrid.

My question is how would other nations react to this development within their nation? Would they outright been the practice? Would it be legal but not have popular support amongst the populace and have groups form against the hybrids? Would it be embraced? How would law enforcement deal with the problem of superhuman strength criminals or criminals that could camouflage themselves? And lastly would your nation's military take advantage of this?

Vistoran society would absorb this shock better than most, I'd guess. That it's merely self-modification means that there'd be no grounds within our legal system to outlaw it, and our highly individualist culture probably entails a more rapid acceptance of the practice than elsewhere.

[The Macabees]

That's a very interesting question. One that's difficult for me to answer, though; so I might have to go through the logic here, for the sake of self-exploration. As far as world-building is concerned, I've designed The Golden Throne as a fairly liberal set of institutions, mixed with conservative tradition and cultural values. How these values conflict with new values that are imported via trade, immigration, and territorial acquisition is not something I spend enough time RPing. There is one case study that deals with the treatment of Marshites on the western coast of Levante, one of three territories organized out of Havenic (Safehaven) lands occupied during the War of Golden Succession. Marshites aren't just transgender (that's how they're categorized in TGT, in any case), but also known for their promiscuity and party-attitude, which makes them the target of hate crimes perpetrated by younger provincials who (ironically) migrated into Levante in the post-war. So, one could expect similar backlash for genetic otherkin fusions.

How this is dealt with depends on the territory or province, since these issues are in their jurisdiction (and not within that of the imperial bureaucracy, although the IB can veto local laws via the Imperial Governor). These local governments have different shapes and institutions depending on which specific territory or provinces is in question, but the democratic ones could vote to protect or further isolate these people depending on the bend of the local population. Levante is unlikely to ever condone hate crimes against Marshites, because the population overall is very cosmopolitan and relativley liberal; but, in Indras -- where the local government is not entirely democratic, and where the population is more conservative anyways -- the policy on otherkin could be very different.

As far as our military taking advantage of this, it sort of already does. It doesn't explicitly connect an enhancement with the type of animal that represents it (like, improving one's sense of smell wouldn't be splicing dog DNA with human DNA -- it would just be genetic manipulation to enhance one's sense of smell), but in principle the outcome is essentially the same.

[United World Order]

So I have a question for everyone here, and this trends towards the more unrealistic side of things here so I'm well aware of that and there's no need tell me.

With the rise of people considering themselves animals or "otherkin" as they're called and with the possibilities of science in the future (again not realistic) people could be able to splice their DNA with animal genes to make themselves into an animal human hybrid.

My question is how would other nations react to this development within their nation? Would they outright been the practice? Would it be legal but not have popular support amongst the populace and have groups form against the hybrids? Would it be embraced? How would law enforcement deal with the problem of superhuman strength criminals or criminals that could camouflage themselves? And lastly would your nation's military take advantage of this?

It is highly unlikely that such a thing such as people considering themselves to be animals would take traction in the UWO. Deep rooted conservatism and social Darwinism would simply not allow the populace to even fathom wanting to do such a thing or consider themselves as animals without possibly being labeled as one of the mentally insane and most likely end up being euthanized by the government. In a military standpoint, it may be something that the Ordenite Wehrmacht would probably run experiments on but most likely not take advantage of.

[Havensky]

So I have a question for everyone here, and this trends towards the more unrealistic side of things here so I'm well aware of that and there's no need tell me.

With the rise of people considering themselves animals or "otherkin" as they're called and with the possibilities of science in the future (again not realistic) people could be able to splice their DNA with animal genes to make themselves into an animal human hybrid.

My question is how would other nations react to this development within their nation? Would they outright been the practice? Would it be legal but not have popular support amongst the populace and have groups form against the hybrids? Would it be embraced? How would law enforcement deal with the problem of superhuman strength criminals or criminals that could camouflage themselves? And lastly would your nation's military take advantage of this?

It would be super-controversial in Havensky. While we're a liberal stronghold, we've also coupled that with a highly educated populace and state-run medical care that I RP as being pretty advanced. I can't imagine a doctor in Havensky ever coming close to approving such a procedure, but if they get the operation elsewhere I don't see us blocking entry.

I think our medical staff would be more worried about the medical consequences. Are otherkin more vulnerable to diseases that normally only affect other animals? What happens in the event of injury? (How would you operate on a hybrid?) There would be a whole host of possible complications from mixing the two. The 'First, Do No Harm" rule would mean that no such hybriding would ever occur (at least legally).

If we had otherkin coming in; they would be accepted in Skyan society - even if most people would be weirded out a bit. (I imagine a scenario in which a gov/military experiment escapes into Havensky and seeks refuge.) They would be obligated to be observed by medical staff; but mostly because we would need to understand what's going on and how to treat otherkin if they get sick or hurt. We'd assign mental health professionals to each one - not because we'd want to change who they are - but I imagine dealing with the stress/consequences might be difficult.

Our military would not even think about trying to manipulate DNA to create an advantage since military service is seen as temporal (most don't serve their entire careers) and that kind of operation is permanent. We get our 'superpowers' through power armor and other technology we can take off at the end of the day.

That being said, our medical teams would look at DNA manipulation to try and cure genetic diseases - but that's a different animal entirely.

[The Technocratic Syndicalists]

So I have a question for everyone here, and this trends towards the more unrealistic side of things here so I'm well aware of that and there's no need tell me.

With the rise of people considering themselves animals or "otherkin" as they're called and with the possibilities of science in the future (again not realistic) people could be able to splice their DNA with animal genes to make themselves into an animal human hybrid.

My question is how would other nations react to this development within their nation? Would they outright been the practice? Would it be legal but not have popular support amongst the populace and have groups form against the hybrids? Would it be embraced? How would law enforcement deal with the problem of superhuman strength criminals or criminals that could camouflage themselves? And lastly would your nation's military take advantage of this?

This isn't super unrealistic (as far as feasibility is concerned, it's called a chimera) but the results would be much more....subtle, at least externally. Think things like higher/lower metabolism, higher blood coagulation rate, better sensory perception, etc as opposed to humans with wings or venomous fangs or whatever. Still useful and interesting but probably not some nightmarish sci-fi abomination type stuff, at least if you want to keep it semi-realistic.

[Thoricia]

So I have a question for everyone here, and this trends towards the more unrealistic side of things here so I'm well aware of that and there's no need tell me.

With the rise of people considering themselves animals or "otherkin" as they're called and with the possibilities of science in the future (again not realistic) people could be able to splice their DNA with animal genes to make themselves into an animal human hybrid.

My question is how would other nations react to this development within their nation? Would they outright been the practice? Would it be legal but not have popular support amongst the populace and have groups form against the hybrids? Would it be embraced? How would law enforcement deal with the problem of superhuman strength criminals or criminals that could camouflage themselves? And lastly would your nation's military take advantage of this?

This isn't super unrealistic (as far as feasibility is concerned, it's called a chimera) but the results would be much more....subtle, at least externally. Think things like higher/lower metabolism, higher blood coagulation rate, better sensory perception, etc as opposed to humans with wings or venomous fangs or whatever. Still useful and interesting but probably not some nightmarish sci-fi abomination type stuff, at least if you want to keep it semi-realistic.

I was thinking more cosmetic actually and the superhuman strength and other things kinda popped in my head while thinking about law enforcement issues along with military applications. So yeah I was thinking more like the animal human hybrid with strong animal characteristic like fur, claws maybe, and the face being altered as well

[Maljaratas]

So I have a question for everyone here, and this trends towards the more unrealistic side of things here so I'm well aware of that and there's no need tell me.

With the rise of people considering themselves animals or "otherkin" as they're called and with the possibilities of science in the future (again not realistic) people could be able to splice their DNA with animal genes to make themselves into an animal human hybrid.

My question is how would other nations react to this development within their nation? Would they outright been the practice? Would it be legal but not have popular support amongst the populace and have groups form against the hybrids? Would it be embraced? How would law enforcement deal with the problem of superhuman strength criminals or criminals that could camouflage themselves? And lastly would your nation's military take advantage of this?

The main thing that I think would happen is that it would be fairly heavily regulated. I expect that Maljaratas would ban the procedure for minors, and limit what can be done on adults. Want gills or vision like a cat? Sure, you can do that. A tail, maybe not. I would think that acceptance would be fairly well, except amongst groups who disapprove of body modification in general. I'm not really sure how law enforcement would deal with criminals like that, except to have some officers on-call for that sort of thing, or weaponry designed against people like that. As for the military, I would think it would be limited to a sort of existing modification thing. As in, people who have existing modifications might be tapped more for specific roles, but still need actual ability.

[The Macabees]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-01-30/tesla-s-battery-revolution-just-reached-critical-mass

[UniversalCommons]

Why would you experiment on humans to start. They are already cloning dogs and experimenting on them. Superdog or a dog hybrid for military or police purposes would make sense, especially if you are going to be hunting down bioterrorists and other dangers. I can easily see some facility messing with dogs and making them more intelligent and better trackers. We have zombie tracking dogs for this reason as well as zombie pointers. If you got a dog smart enough or another animal smart enough and it got rights as a sentient, would it want to make itself more intelligent. Scooby Dooby Doo.

[Stoklomolvi]

Surprising to see you're still alive, Macabees!

What does the PMT community think of widespread use of molecular assemblers? I feel that autonomous molecular assembly devices (powered by glorious handwavy AI technology) would do well to propel a PMT nation into the post-scarcity era. Searching the thread for "molecular" yielded only one result regarding manufacture of aircraft wings and searching for "assembler" yielded nothing.

Actually, would post-scarcity nations be possible during the PMT timeframe?

[Vistora]

Surprising to see you're still alive, Macabees!

What does the PMT community think of widespread use of molecular assemblers? I feel that autonomous molecular assembly devices (powered by glorious handwavy AI technology) would do well to propel a PMT nation into the post-scarcity era. Searching the thread for "molecular" yielded only one result regarding manufacture of aircraft wings and searching for "assembler" yielded nothing.

Actually, would post-scarcity nations be possible during the PMT timeframe?

Molecular assemblers are nonsense from anything less than an FT(+) perspective.

[Stoklomolvi]

Molecular assemblers are nonsense from anything less than an FT(+) perspective.

Why do you think so?

[The Macabees]

I think post-scarcity is a fantasy that's beyond even FT. For post-scarcity to exist there needs to be an infinite output machine (sort of like a perpetual motion machine, as a metaphor); i.e. none of the means of production are scarce.

[Stoklomolvi]

For all of our human intents and purposes, I would imagine that the sun (or some other main-sequence star nearby, if we're not on Earth) would be enough for human energy needs for billions of years. Granted, we currently do not possess the ability to finely manipulate objects on a molecular level, but I imagine that a science-focused society could determine the possibility of a molecular assembler device within a few hundred years, for positive or negative.

As far as input goes, if we are able to disassemble things and turn them into other things, that would be a pretty good source of material; I suggested molecular assembler rather than atomic assembler since I felt that a molecular assembly device might theoretically be more feasible than an atomic assembly device. I guess we would need to define "post-scarcity" first. I've personally always understood it to mean that the majority of things or objects we desire on a daily basis would be available in abundance, but not necessarily everything.

[The Macabees]

For all of our human intents and purposes, I would imagine that the sun (or some other main-sequence star nearby, if we're not on Earth) would be enough for human energy needs for billions of years.

At present levels of KwH usage, sure. But if you have more energy and it drives its cost down, you also end up getting more opportunities to use that energy. That's why post-scarcity is a fantasy; there's no limit to what humans want and can produce. That's why post-scarcity would require an infinite output machine.

[Stoklomolvi]

If you take post-scarcity and redefine it at each level of improved production and energy consumption then yes, humans are capable of infinitely wanting more and since nothing known is infinite, we would hit a cap at some point. What is your definition of post-scarcity, though? Same as my definition, or something else?

[The Macabees]

If you take post-scarcity and redefine it at each level of improved production and energy consumption then yes, humans are capable of infinitely wanting more and since nothing known is infinite, we would hit a cap at some point. What is your definition of post-scarcity, though? Same as my definition, or something else?

There's only one true definition of post-scarcity, which is an economic concept: when everything is free, because there's no opportunity cost (you aren't sacrificing A to get B).

[Stoklomolvi]

I won't argue with you on the economics aspect of things, since humans are humans and there's not much to argue about there.

But consider the molecular assembler concept. Okay, so it would not yield the "ideal" post-scarcity society, but do you think it would 1) be technologically feasible in a PMT timeframe 2) be able to provide a situation wherein most common materials are readily available?

[Vistora]

Molecular assemblers are nonsense from anything less than an FT(+) perspective.

Why do you think so?

Because dry nanotech mass fabricators are, scientifically speaking, on very spurious grounds. On molecular and atomic scales, the dominant forces are chemical and far subsume mechanical and kinetic interactions. Drexlerian nanomachines are implausible because they assume that the physiodynamic interactions that characterize macroscopic machines can simply be scaled down, which they cannot, at least not with our current understanding of intramolecular interactions.

"Wet" nanotech, on the other hand, is more than plausible; it exists today, in the form of all living organisms and the myriad biochemical interactions to which they owe their existence. However, the interactions guided in wet nanotech are largely chemical in nature and, moreover, are almost invariably dependent on all reagents existing as solutes in a solution.

I won't argue with you on the economics aspect of things, since humans are humans and there's not much to argue about there.

But consider the molecular assembler concept. Okay, so it would not yield the "ideal" post-scarcity society, but do you think it would 1) be technologically feasible in a PMT timeframe 2) be able to provide a situation wherein most common materials are readily available?

1) Absolutely not. In fact, I would go so far as to say that a mass fab is just as good a delineating factor between PMT and FT as FTL travel/communication is. But, disregarding my own definition of PMT, what do you define as a "PMT Timeframe"?

2) Unless you upgrade this molecular assembler to an nuclear transmutation device, you still need to collect the base elements of whatever material you require. Then arrives the problem inherent to molecular assemblers; what then? Atoms are not like LEGOs. One cannot just pick them apart with a little claw and piece them back together.

And as Macabees has addressed, post-scarcity is an inherently specious concept.

[Neornith]

Fabricators are a touchy subject in FT even, some people use them while others scorn their existence because at the rich of a button the other player has virtually anything at their disposal. Their usage in PMT isn't feasible either especially in an RP setting I feel because that tells me the other player is more worried about being competitive and not collaborative.

Post scarcity is another subject that elicits a groan from me, it's always been my experience players that RP post scarcity lack a lot of depth within their nation, there's so much more you can build as a writer with a distopia than you can with a utopia. Conflict, anguish, and suffering can build characters with depth and add a lot more spice along with drawing other player's interest in then "everyone is happy and nothing bad ever happens"