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International Freedom Coalition (OOC, APPS TEMP CLOSED)

Where nations come together and discuss matters of varying degrees of importance. [In character]

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New Aeyariss
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Postby New Aeyariss » Sun Feb 07, 2016 1:50 am

HYPOCRITE! That has been my point in negotiations. You can't dictate terms. Negotiation, as you so rightly say, is a two-way lane.


Neither Ausitoria can dictate SACTO terms upon which the negotiations will be carried out.

All that Ausitoria seeks is the ability for the IFC to function - and for IFC members to act - without constant interference from SACTO. We are not your puppets. We are trying to be neutral, and SACTO is making it impossible.

IFC, do you even want not to have to kowtow to SACTO?


The internal affairs of the IFC are none of our concern. Encroachment by Ausitorian government on SACTO sphere of influence, however, is. Remaining affairs are none of our concern, especially considering that Aravea and OS were members of IFA long before Ausitoria joined said organizations.

Anyway, if SACTO refuses to allow this, we have a problem. As I said in my TG, you cannot dictate terms, because that will lead to confrontation, and confrontation between two sides that will not compromise in a war that will never stop will not be pretty for anybody. Nobody wins in total war, even in nuclear weapons are left off the table. The ability to wage war = willpower x resources. Ausitoria, for funny cultural reasons, has an immense willpower to defend a centrist, neutral, trading bloc - because otherwise this moderate bloc will never have any functional independence.


Actually here I will disagree. Now allow me to quote a classic soviet military theories, Vasily D. Sokolovsky, whose theories about military art shaped operational doctrine of red army for majority of cold war. Sokolovsky formed four "laws" that describe possible chances in a military conflict:

"First Law: The course and outcome of war waged with unlimited employment of all means of conflict depends primarily on the correlation of available, strictly military combatants at the beginning of war ...
Second Law: The course and outcome of war depend on the correlation of the military potentials of the combatants.
Third Law: The course and outcome of war depend on its political content.
Fourth Law: The course and outcome of war depend on the correlation of moral-political and psychological capabilities of the peoples and armies of the combatants.


Now, quoting those laws:

1) How many forces could Ausitoria contribute to the fight at this point?

2) How many forces could, at this moment, Ausitoria contribute to the conflict? How well equipped they are? How well trained is it's officer cadre against SACTO militaries which had plenty of chance to practice combat during various interventions past year?

3) How much backup could Ausitoria get, now when Allanea declared that it will protect IYF (ask him if you do not believe)? How strong it is ideologically?

4) How will Ausitoria behave when SACTO declared it will not back down, because status quo benefits us much more? How will it behave against heavily ideological alliance, many of whom are backed by religious feelings in battle, which make them believe that what they are defending is holy?

Furthermore, I am pointing you back again to my ignored analysis of potential war between SACTO and Ausitoria, and why it may be far less devastating than how you think.

Therefore, you de-escalate, you compromise. That is how the world works.


No. Military wise Ausitoria does not pose a threat that would move our organization; and we see no reason why we should yield to foreign offensive on our zone of influence carried by enemy who negated our offers of peace. As famous Polish statesman said "Peace is a valuable and needed thing. Our generation, bloodied in wars, certainly deserves it. But peace, as all things on this world, has it's price. High, but possible to be paid. We in Poland do not know idea of peace above all. There is only one thing in the lives of people, states and nations that is priceless. And that thing is honor".

Furthermore, according to Prussian military theorist Carl Von Clausewitz "War is a struggle of wills". SACTO possesses willpower on our own, and there is nothing that Ausitoria can do at this moment to move us without guaranteeing it's own destruction. SACTO has no offensive goals, and Ausitoria can do nothing to prevent us from closing straits and canals to him short of war - which it's government will itself initiate, and which will trigger defensive war from SACTO aiming not at conquering Ausitoria, but at declawing it and denying it any ability to attack SACTO again.

And Riysa, obviously you ommitted to include Cuscy's earlier TG, when he'd threatened be with some hypersonic gravity vehicle. And on trade, I was chatting with Cuscy to see whether their nation would be interested on an informal level - why should I bother making a pretty diplomatic post if I'm going to get a humiliating official response which will simply lead to a long argument?


Said TG was response to constant - over a year long threats - of using nukes. It simply stated that Mutually Assured Destruction is now my official policy in case of Ausitorian use of nuclear weaponry...

Besides who signs a trade treaty with an enemy?

Glad to see Cuscy has had the sense to avoid that long public argument. [/sarcasm]


I am just stating my own knowledge; please do not thing I am trying to argue. However your own tone makes it hard. I kindly asked it to tone it down


Tl; dr: SACTO must learn to compromise, and accept that not everybody is with them or against them: some simply want to be ambivalent in a multipolar world.


Been reading Alexander Dugin?

Well if we take his criteria, isn't Ausitoria perfect example of Atlanticist civilization of the sea?

(Only the Sith think in absolutes).


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Allanea
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Postby Allanea » Sun Feb 07, 2016 1:53 am

I hereby declare that in any conflict with Ausitoria, SACTO has Allanea's complete military support.
Last edited by Allanea on Sun Feb 07, 2016 1:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Allanea
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Postby Allanea » Sun Feb 07, 2016 1:56 am

. Nobody wins in total war, even in nuclear weapons are left off the table.


This is a blatant untruth.

The US has clearly emerged a winner from the Pacific Front, having completely obliterated the Japanese military and industrial strength, and then nuked Japan twice, and then launched the largest carpet bombing in WW2 after Japan did not immediately surrender after being nuked. They achieved every major geopolitical objective in the theater, while suffering limited casualties.
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New Aeyariss
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Postby New Aeyariss » Sun Feb 07, 2016 2:07 am

Well, IC wise, Nihonese government is counting on Ausitorian government realizing that it is now "in goat's horn" and totally unable to make a move without having to worry about serious consequences:

Three possible scenarios include:

1) Ausitorian government sitting down and agreeing to uphold status Quo, followed by non - aggression pact and defining spheres of influence.

2) Ausitorian government launching an offensive conventional war, getting their military destroyed by SACTO & Allies, as SACTO has no offensive intent.

3) Ausitorian government using WMDs (may include point 2) and having Ausitorian mainland struck with WMDs itself.
Last edited by New Aeyariss on Sun Feb 07, 2016 2:08 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Inyourfaceistan wrote:You didn't know that Cusc is actually a 4-armed cyborg genius commander and skillful warrior created in secret by a cabal of rich capitalist financiers built to lead and army of drones and other renegades against and overbearing socialist regime?
Psalms 144:1 wrote:Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight.
Also known as El Cuscatlan, Jesus will offer you eternal life if you believe in him!


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The Lendol Archipelago
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Postby The Lendol Archipelago » Sun Feb 07, 2016 2:11 am

Here's an idea, if you're not going to work with the IFC, and, y'know, not obstruct progress, leave.

Nihon, we have no issue with SACTO and we certainly don't want a war. We don't have an issue with dual membership either. It's when dual members cause problems and obstruct the IFC for no reason under the guise of being right that we get annoyed. Do us all a favour and at least try to stop members of SACTO from causing problems in the IFC.
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Libraria and Ausitoria
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Postby Libraria and Ausitoria » Sun Feb 07, 2016 2:15 am

New Aeyariss wrote:[...]
You forgot Scenario no. 4: Tense stand-off until policy change in SACTO, and Scenario no. 5: SACTO accidentally launches an offensive conventional war, initiating IFC defensive protocols.

Allanea wrote:
. Nobody wins in total war, even in nuclear weapons are left off the table.

Imagine if Japan had had the ability to nuke America back. Would anybody really have been able to win? Discuss.

(You may choose to refer to deterrence, de-escalation, and compromise in your answer).

(You may also refer to the Cold war).

New Aeyariss wrote:The internal affairs of the IFC are none of our concern.

Stop kicking up a fuss about IYF's expulsion then.

1) How many forces could Ausitoria contribute to the fight at this point?

Lots.

2) How many forces could, at this moment, Ausitoria contribute to the conflict? How well equipped they are? How well trained is it's officer cadre against SACTO militaries which had plenty of chance to practice combat during various interventions past year?

They've had plenty of chance to practice in various interventions in the past year, as well.

3) How much backup could Ausitoria get, now when Allanea declared that it will protect IYF (ask him if you do not believe)? How strong it is ideologically?

SACTO has made a lot of enemies, in case you haven't noticed... is it their abrasive personalities? Their pig-headed arrogance? Their wish to stamp on everybody who doesn't kowtow to them?

Seriously, you're not up against a single nation.

4) How will Ausitoria behave when SACTO declared it will not back down, because status quo benefits us much more? How will it behave against heavily ideological alliance, many of whom are backed by religious feelings in battle, which make them believe that what they are defending is holy?

Status quo benefits Ausitoria fine. Ausitoria is defending nothing less than civilization and the freedom of choice.


Besides who signs a trade treaty with an enemy?

Anybody who wants that enemy to stop being an enemy, i.e. anybody who wants to learn how to get along.


Common Territories wrote:[...]

My calculations are, naturally, impeccable approximations. The world has at present some 50,500 ships; Ausitoria has a GDP about three times that of the world; allowing for larger ships, that means roughly 100,000 ships; of which 70% are naturally inclined to internal trade (a stinging rebuke of the rest of the world's willingness to trade). That leaves about 30,000 ships. 70% of Ausitorian trade is concentrated in neighbouring regions. About 2% of total Ausitorian trade would probably pass through TECT. Of that trade about 20% is physically carried by ship, and of that trade (at that distance from Ausitorian regions) about 10% is carried by Ausitorian ships. By elementary multiplication this comes to a total of about 12 ships. I simply assume the rest of the IFC is economically about equivalent in their approach to extra-regional trade, so multiply by two, and viola! The approximation is complete and almost certainly realistic to within an order of magnitude.

As for how much trade TECT would likely do with Ausitoria, I have my own formula (which is rather complicated, and which I will not go into), which allocates two thirds of my trade to specific nations. Continuing to apply that formula (a function of weighting by population, GDP, distance (estimated at c. 60,000 km, i.e. two regions away), trade openness, and a continuity distance factor), TECT would probably account for between 1-2% of the remaining third of trade. This comes to c. $679 billion per year (0.4% of my nation's total trade) which is almost certainly realistic to within half an order of magnitude. Subsequently through the various derivative substitution mechanisms I suggested earlier, a complete ban on trade is equivalent to about a 3% immediate tariff on the trade which is shifted to/via substituting nations, which gives me my figure for damage to trade. It's elementary really.

Anyway, you do not need to agree with my cannon: I am approximating entirely for my own statistics. Naturally you are welcome to use the same calculations if you like. They have never yet thrown up anything I would consider unrealistic.
Last edited by Libraria and Ausitoria on Sun Feb 07, 2016 2:37 am, edited 7 times in total.
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Disclaimer: Notwithstanding any mention of their nations, Ausitoria and its canon does not exist nor impact the canon of many IFC & SACTO & closed-region nations; and it is harassment to presume it does. However in accordance with my open-door policy the converse does not apply: they still impact Ausitoria's canon.
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New Aeyariss
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Postby New Aeyariss » Sun Feb 07, 2016 2:37 am

You forgot scenario no. 4: Tense stand-off until regime change in SACTO, and Scenario no. 5: SACTO launches an offensive conventional war, initiating IFC defensive protocols.


4 is basically status quo.

5 is not a go since SACTO has nothing to benefit from such war.

Imagine if Japan had had the ability to nuke America back. Would anybody really have been able to win? Discuss.

(You may choose to refer to deterrence, de-escalation, and compromise in your answer).

(You may also refer to the Cold war).


And you may also refer to my research I posted earlier, which I bet you are ignoring on purpose; Imperial Japan hadn't used gas on US troops, and probability of conventional Russian - US conflict is pretty high, frankly. Though such conflict will be limited in scope and area, it does not have to involve nukes.

Stop kicking up a fuss about IYF's expulsion then.


Please pay in mind that I never said anything about him. This is not about his expulsion, but about constant threats to SACTO as organization; which we do not like.

Lots.


I want details. How many divisions? How many ships? How many wings? I can provide you all the detail about Imperial Nihonese Army if you give me one day, but I want to see yours first.

They've had plenty of chance to practice in various interventions in the past year, as well.


We shall see then ;).

SACTO has made a lot of enemies, in case you haven't noticed... is it their abrasive personalities? Their pig-headed arrogance? Their wish to stamp on everybody who doesn't kowtow to them?


With no offense, I hadn't been referring to you personally. If you have noticed I am trying to keep everything as much ICly as possible.

And I know how many enemies we have. Most of them were destroyed long ago. Remaining ones are welcome to try...

Status quo benefits Ausitoria fine. Ausitoria is defending nothing less than civilization and the freedom of choice.


Not like I support Dugin myself ;).

Anybody who wants that enemy to stop being an enemy, i.e. anybody who wants to learn how to get along.


Enemy can't stop being enemy until one still has dispute with him. That is why I offered balance of power to be returned to original point.

Nihon, we have no issue with SACTO and we certainly don't want a war. We don't have an issue with dual membership either. It's when dual members cause problems and obstruct the IFC for no reason under the guise of being right that we get annoyed. Do us all a favour and at least try to stop members of SACTO from causing problems in the IFC.


Excuse me, do you guys really believe that we have any influence over IFC?

If we had, 2ria would not have been PM right now...

But, from outsider's PoV - Original IFC of Bratislav was far different from the one I seen. Bratislav actually legalized gay marriage and proclaimed Orthodox church his official, though not national religion (special privileges). Technically every democracy I seen required political plurality.

I am not trying to speak on your affairs not intervene somehow; but you guys should ask yourself what vision do you have, and if all members share this vision. In SACTO there are several groups - one just has to consider differences between Flar & rest of SACTO...
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Inyourfaceistan wrote:You didn't know that Cusc is actually a 4-armed cyborg genius commander and skillful warrior created in secret by a cabal of rich capitalist financiers built to lead and army of drones and other renegades against and overbearing socialist regime?
Psalms 144:1 wrote:Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight.
Also known as El Cuscatlan, Jesus will offer you eternal life if you believe in him!


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Libraria and Ausitoria
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Postby Libraria and Ausitoria » Sun Feb 07, 2016 2:44 am

New Aeyariss wrote:
You forgot scenario no. 4: Tense stand-off until regime change in SACTO, and Scenario no. 5: SACTO launches an offensive conventional war, initiating IFC defensive protocols.

5 is not a go since SACTO has nothing to benefit from such war.

Perhaps my memory of events yesterday isn't accurate, but wasn't there some suggestion that someone would attack ships enjoying Freedom of Navigation?

The likelihood of SACTO inadvertently, accidentally, launching an offensive war where everybody will die is very high if they aren't more careful. You can do anything you like, except block trade between two consenting parties.

New Aeyariss wrote:I want details. How many divisions? How many ships? How many wings? I can provide you all the detail about Imperial Nihonese Army if you give me one day, but I want to see yours first.

I can provide you with details when I know your GDP per capitas, and your economic management, from which I will derive the date.

SACTO has made a lot of enemies, in case you haven't noticed... is it their abrasive personalities? Their pig-headed arrogance? Their wish to stamp on everybody who doesn't kowtow to them?


With no offense, I hadn't been referring to you personally. If you have noticed I am trying to keep everything as much ICly as possible.

I'm talking about some member nations in SACTO ICly too, don't take it personally. Unless you feel you ought too.

Excuse me, do you guys really believe that we have any influence over IFC?

If we had, 2ria would not have been PM right now...

*Waits for no-confidence motion anytime now.*

And why is SACTO voting as a bloc to try to keep IYF in the IFC? It's because IYF is constantly threatening IFC unity that Ausitoria seeks to expel them. If Ausitoria was actively trying to remove dual members, why would they have admitted another?
Last edited by Libraria and Ausitoria on Sun Feb 07, 2016 2:49 am, edited 3 times in total.
The Aestorian Commonwealth - Pax Prosperitas - Gloria in Maere - (Factbook)

Disclaimer: Notwithstanding any mention of their nations, Ausitoria and its canon does not exist nor impact the canon of many IFC & SACTO & closed-region nations; and it is harassment to presume it does. However in accordance with my open-door policy the converse does not apply: they still impact Ausitoria's canon.
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Organized States
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Postby Organized States » Sun Feb 07, 2016 2:49 am

I have no plans of a no-confidence motion.

I'm assuming Flar doesn't either.
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Libraria and Ausitoria
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Postby Libraria and Ausitoria » Sun Feb 07, 2016 2:52 am

Well, that's a relief.

But why are dual members voting as a bloc to try to keep IYF in the IFC? It's because IYF is constantly threatening IFC unity* that Ausitoria seeks to expel them. If Ausitoria was actively trying to remove dual members, why would they have admitted another?

*(I.e. having a three-week argument about whether they had to agree to the defensive protocols before finally actually agreeing, and then having a silly argument about sinking Ausitorian shipping, and now effectively suspending themselves from the IFC by saying they OOCly don't recognize the Prime Minister - how would that even work?)
Last edited by Libraria and Ausitoria on Sun Feb 07, 2016 2:54 am, edited 2 times in total.
The Aestorian Commonwealth - Pax Prosperitas - Gloria in Maere - (Factbook)

Disclaimer: Notwithstanding any mention of their nations, Ausitoria and its canon does not exist nor impact the canon of many IFC & SACTO & closed-region nations; and it is harassment to presume it does. However in accordance with my open-door policy the converse does not apply: they still impact Ausitoria's canon.
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Common Territories
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Postby Common Territories » Sun Feb 07, 2016 2:59 am

Libraria and Ausitoria wrote:-snip-


Im not really going to argue about calculations, nor was I trying to. I was just wondering where it came from/its process. I couldn't honestly care less how many ships you have that are owned by shipping companies or something. But here is what I am going to tell you:

Please do not god mod yourself into my cannon. You just blatantly god modded yourself as a trade partner of mine, which you aren't. I have never, and I mean never, talked to you about trade deals, trade relations, or companies doing business with each other. I am pretty positive I've never even done a storefront transaction with you. So don't go saying you are a trade partner of mine because you're not. I don't have to agree you though you say? Well unfortunately I do have to agree for you to have ships pass through my waters and to actually trade with me; you've stated multiple times now that you know RP'ing and world building are done by cooperation, and not once was it done in this case. Your argument about water territory aside, you have no excuse here for just trying to god mod yourself into my canon as a trade partner when you are very clearly not. I insist you retract that fact since it's a blatant lie and has no ground in truth.

If you seriously want to test my patience on your ships entering my waters without permission, try me. Whether you try to sneak them through or act all official you're going to be rudely awaken that they're our waters. So go ahead and make a thread on it if you want try and make it official. When it comes time to explain why you're trying to run through our waters to the barrel of a Royal Guard Marine rifle, you had best have a better excuse then "Freedom of Navigation." And since I have gotten a request to embargo you now, do expect your ships and aircraft, if they decide to brave my waters, to be captured or sunk/shot down at my preference.

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New Aeyariss
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Postby New Aeyariss » Sun Feb 07, 2016 3:07 am

Perhaps my memory of events yesterday isn't accurate, but wasn't there some suggestion that someone would attack ships enjoying Freedom of Navigation?

The likelihood of SACTO inadvertently, accidentally, launching an offensive war where everybody will die is very high if they aren't more careful. You can do anything you like, except block trade between two consenting parties.


Embargo on Ausitorian goods is public, that is no denial.

As mentioned eagerly, Ausitoria is at this moment only force interested in doing that.

I can provide you with details when I know your GDP per capitas, from which I will derive the date.


Just let me do a quick consultation with few economists I know, and you will have it. I am reading "Microecoomics" by Ian Irvine and David Begg now, though not because of NS ;).

I'm talking about some member nations in SACTO ICly too, don't take it personally. Unless you feel you ought too.


I hope you are. After all, last thing I am interested in is barging into some OOC mess again.

*Waits for no-confidence motion anytime now.*

And why is SACTO voting as a bloc to try to keep IYF in the IFC? It's because IYF is constantly threatening IFC unity that Ausitoria seeks to expel them. If Ausitoria was actively trying to remove dual members, why would they have admitted another?


Because those nations have several geo - political ties SACTO is only part of? Inyurstan - OS partnership in Latin America? Various trade pacts like Riysan - Nihonese - Flardanian iron pact? Aravean - Inyurstan mutual defense treaty?

And somebody tells me that I do not know about multi polar world...

And just to point; failure of resolutions like the one about Inyursta's expulsion wasn't matter of 4 SACTO member's votes; Several nations not connected to SACTO in any way voted as their wanted. And if a no - confidence vote is initiated, 4 SACTO members won't do a thing without majority of the IFC backing them up.
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Inyourfaceistan wrote:You didn't know that Cusc is actually a 4-armed cyborg genius commander and skillful warrior created in secret by a cabal of rich capitalist financiers built to lead and army of drones and other renegades against and overbearing socialist regime?
Psalms 144:1 wrote:Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight.
Also known as El Cuscatlan, Jesus will offer you eternal life if you believe in him!


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Libraria and Ausitoria
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Founded: May 30, 2011
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Postby Libraria and Ausitoria » Sun Feb 07, 2016 3:18 am

Common Territories wrote:[...]

TECT, Ausitoria trades/manages trade with everyone who hasn't managed to ban it. So back in mid-2015, before you made your recent decision, it's pretty much certain there'd have been some miniscule quantity of direct/indirect trade.

Ausitoria will consider - later - whether to test TECT's navigation, but they will not let anybody who blocks any IFC's members trade continue as a member in the IFC; and they will test any such block.

The war - or not - would rest on Inyursta's decision.

But for as long as IYF decides to OOCly ignore Ausitoria, the decision will never need to be made: Ausitorian ships will go straight through Inyursta as though it isn't there.

Who said fractal reality was silly?

New Aeyariss wrote: And if a no - confidence vote is initiated, 4 SACTO members won't do a thing without majority of the IFC backing them up.

It's a pretty powerful voting bloc, as a few others have noted before. Most motions only have an average of 8 votes: 4 votes can easily tip the balance.

You can exert a lot of influence in the IFC, which is why I am doing my best to counterbalance it and why Ausitoria is doing its best to counterbalance it, and you are resisting it, and in doing so, are meddling in the internal affairs of the IFC.

Anyway, this war - cold or not - has had quite enough discussion on this thread. I suggest we take it to TGs/IRCs.
Last edited by Libraria and Ausitoria on Sun Feb 07, 2016 3:25 am, edited 4 times in total.
The Aestorian Commonwealth - Pax Prosperitas - Gloria in Maere - (Factbook)

Disclaimer: Notwithstanding any mention of their nations, Ausitoria and its canon does not exist nor impact the canon of many IFC & SACTO & closed-region nations; and it is harassment to presume it does. However in accordance with my open-door policy the converse does not apply: they still impact Ausitoria's canon.
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New Aeyariss
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Postby New Aeyariss » Sun Feb 07, 2016 3:26 am

It's a pretty powerful voting bloc, as a few others have noted before. Most motions only have an average of 8 votes: 4 votes can easily tip the balance.

You can exert a lot of influence in the IFC, which is why I am doing my best to counterbalance it and why Ausitoria is doing its best to counterbalance it, and you are resisting it, and in doing so, are meddling in the internal affairs of the IFC.


I also wanted to remind you that guys who are doing it are also IFC members in SACTO - influencing our policy a lot.

But just to ask, out of curiosity: How many IFC members have protective tariffs in place?

But for as long as IYF decides to OOCly ignore Ausitoria, the decision will never need to be made: Ausitorian ships will go straight through Inyursta as though it isn't there.

Who said fractal reality was silly?


If this madness continues I will ignore Ausitoria myself also... I came here to RP, not to participate in OOC arguments. Especially with people for whom I write a long article quoting multiple military theorists and get ignored later on ;).
Rping in MT (2023) and PT/FanT (1564)


Inyourfaceistan wrote:You didn't know that Cusc is actually a 4-armed cyborg genius commander and skillful warrior created in secret by a cabal of rich capitalist financiers built to lead and army of drones and other renegades against and overbearing socialist regime?
Psalms 144:1 wrote:Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight.
Also known as El Cuscatlan, Jesus will offer you eternal life if you believe in him!


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Libraria and Ausitoria
Negotiator
 
Posts: 7099
Founded: May 30, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Libraria and Ausitoria » Sun Feb 07, 2016 3:29 am

New Aeyariss wrote:If this madness continues I will ignore Ausitoria myself also... I came here to RP, not to participate in OOC arguments. Especially with people for whom I write a long article quoting multiple military theorists and get ignored later on ;).

Don't be so petty. Can't you see I'm simply trying to de-escalate this argument? We don't have to monopolize the IFC OOC thread. I'd be very interest to discuss military strategy with you later - why not make a SACTO OOC thread so we can discuss it there?

New Aeyariss wrote:
It's a pretty powerful voting bloc, as a few others have noted before. Most motions only have an average of 8 votes: 4 votes can easily tip the balance.

You can exert a lot of influence in the IFC, which is why I am doing my best to counterbalance it and why Ausitoria is doing its best to counterbalance it, and you are resisting it, and in doing so, are meddling in the internal affairs of the IFC.


I also wanted to remind you that guys who are doing it are also IFC members in SACTO - influencing our policy a lot.

Really? What on earth was your policy going to be before it was moderated?
Last edited by Libraria and Ausitoria on Sun Feb 07, 2016 3:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
The Aestorian Commonwealth - Pax Prosperitas - Gloria in Maere - (Factbook)

Disclaimer: Notwithstanding any mention of their nations, Ausitoria and its canon does not exist nor impact the canon of many IFC & SACTO & closed-region nations; and it is harassment to presume it does. However in accordance with my open-door policy the converse does not apply: they still impact Ausitoria's canon.
○ Commonwealth Capital (Bank) ○ ○ Commonwealth Connect (Bank Treaty) ○ ○ SeaScape (Shipping & Energy) ○
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Common Territories
Senator
 
Posts: 4745
Founded: Nov 08, 2011
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Common Territories » Sun Feb 07, 2016 3:30 am

Libraria and Ausitoria wrote:
Common Territories wrote:[...]

TECT, Ausitoria trades/manages trade with everyone who hasn't managed to ban it. So back in mid-2015, before you made your recent decision, it's pretty much certain there'd have been some miniscule quantity of direct/indirect trade.

Ausitoria will consider - later - whether to test TECT's navigation, but they will not let anybody who blocks any IFC's members trade continue as a member in the IFC; and they will test any such block.

The war - or not - would rest on Inyursta's decision.

But for as long as IYF decides to OOCly ignore Ausitoria, the decision will never need to be made: Ausitorian ships will go straight through Inyursta as though it isn't there.

Who said fractal reality was silly?

New Aeyariss wrote: And if a no - confidence vote is initiated, 4 SACTO members won't do a thing without majority of the IFC backing them up.

It's a pretty powerful voting bloc, as a few others have noted before. Most motions only have an average of 8 votes: 4 votes can easily tip the balance.

You can exert a lot of influence in the IFC, which is why I am doing my best to counterbalance it and why Ausitoria is doing its best to counterbalance it, and you are resisting it, and in doing so, are meddling in the internal affairs of the IFC.


No you see, you can't just decide because I decided to sanction IFC and you recently that you probably traded with me before that. Canon establishing doesn't work like that. That is what im trying to tell you. You have never, ever, in present or ancient past, traded with TECT. Get over it. Before you claim you traded with someone like me, maybe you should have done business with one of my storefronts, or left said application in my less then modern embassy thread, or maybe dropping a TG before all this; my storefronts or embassy thread have been up for almost half a decade at least in some cases, otherwise years. Because if a bunch of random people I rarely ever talked to could so could you, and almost all of said financial history is still there and is recorded for the NS world to see.

New Aeyariss wrote:
It's a pretty powerful voting bloc, as a few others have noted before. Most motions only have an average of 8 votes: 4 votes can easily tip the balance.

You can exert a lot of influence in the IFC, which is why I am doing my best to counterbalance it and why Ausitoria is doing its best to counterbalance it, and you are resisting it, and in doing so, are meddling in the internal affairs of the IFC.


I also wanted to remind you that guys who are doing it are also IFC members in SACTO - influencing our policy a lot.

But just to ask, out of curiosity: How many IFC members have protective tariffs in place?

But for as long as IYF decides to OOCly ignore Ausitoria, the decision will never need to be made: Ausitorian ships will go straight through Inyursta as though it isn't there.

Who said fractal reality was silly?


If this madness continues I will ignore Ausitoria myself also... I came here to RP, not to participate in OOC arguments. Especially with people for whom I write a long article quoting multiple military theorists and get ignored later on ;).

I wanted to attest to this first part about members in IFC as well influencing SACTO. For example, when I was in the planning stage of putting sanctions on any activity in the storefronts, I believe all said dual members objected strongly to it saying it would hurt relations between the two organizations and cause tension. We all know now that wasn't true and never happened, and im not trying to say these dual members are bad people who try to inflate policies in the others organization. What I want to say is that these members are their own damn people with their own goals. They're looking out for both alliances in their actions in most cases. They have opinions on happenings, they have feelings on events happening now, and they care for both sides because they're part of both alliances. I didn't want to jump into this argument between the IFC and SACTO so I've not responded to anything concerning it. But im getting real sick of the talk that these dual members are just a bunch of infiltrators trying to influence one side for their actual loyalties in another side, like trying to take over votes to pass or fail your resolutions for example. Because they're not. They're not evil enemy bloc trying to shove influence into another side's decision making, they're fucking people like you and me who have their own opinions on things like resolutions or internal events and feelings that attach them to both alliances. So for their sake, everyone knock off this damn talk of SACTO Bloc, IFC Bloc, or whatever trying to take over the other sides alliance. It's disrespectful to your damn members trying to insinuate they're just obstructions in the road.
Last edited by Common Territories on Sun Feb 07, 2016 3:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Libraria and Ausitoria
Negotiator
 
Posts: 7099
Founded: May 30, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Libraria and Ausitoria » Sun Feb 07, 2016 3:33 am

Common Territories wrote:No you see, you can't just decide because I decided to sanction IFC and you recently that you probably traded with me before that. Canon establishing doesn't work like that.

Actually it does. Ausitoria has certainly directly traded with nations that have directly traded with TECT, and with even more nations that have traded with nations that have directly traded with TECT, and with even more nations that have traded with nations that have traded with nations that have directly traded with TECT, etc., etc...

I call it 'no first order discontinuities in cannon'.

I'm not saying it's much trade, nor would it have been significant to either of our nations.
Last edited by Libraria and Ausitoria on Sun Feb 07, 2016 3:34 am, edited 2 times in total.
The Aestorian Commonwealth - Pax Prosperitas - Gloria in Maere - (Factbook)

Disclaimer: Notwithstanding any mention of their nations, Ausitoria and its canon does not exist nor impact the canon of many IFC & SACTO & closed-region nations; and it is harassment to presume it does. However in accordance with my open-door policy the converse does not apply: they still impact Ausitoria's canon.
○ Commonwealth Capital (Bank) ○ ○ Commonwealth Connect (Bank Treaty) ○ ○ SeaScape (Shipping & Energy) ○
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New Aeyariss
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8134
Founded: May 12, 2010
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby New Aeyariss » Sun Feb 07, 2016 3:36 am

Don't be so petty. Can't you see I'm simply trying to de-escalate this argument? We don't have to monopolize the IFC OOC thread. I'd be very interest to discuss military strategy with you later - why not make a SACTO OOC thread so we can discuss it there?


My whole point was that this military policy influenced Ausitoria - Nihon, and thus IFC - SACTO relations. Still lack of referring to it. I spoke about various doctrines, because that is what I am involved with IRL wise.

Really? What on earth was your policy going to be before it was moderated?


I was speaking about different example. Our policy was not going to be moderated because SACTO does not work the way IFC works; we do not come to decisions through voting, but rather, through naturally existing consensus and sense of unity.

But still, one can only ask if Flardania is really that close politically to SACTO command, especially after Cuscatlani BOEP raided it's embassy...
Rping in MT (2023) and PT/FanT (1564)


Inyourfaceistan wrote:You didn't know that Cusc is actually a 4-armed cyborg genius commander and skillful warrior created in secret by a cabal of rich capitalist financiers built to lead and army of drones and other renegades against and overbearing socialist regime?
Psalms 144:1 wrote:Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight.
Also known as El Cuscatlan, Jesus will offer you eternal life if you believe in him!


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Libraria and Ausitoria
Negotiator
 
Posts: 7099
Founded: May 30, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Libraria and Ausitoria » Sun Feb 07, 2016 3:39 am

New Aeyariss wrote:
Don't be so petty. Can't you see I'm simply trying to de-escalate this argument? We don't have to monopolize the IFC OOC thread. I'd be very interest to discuss military strategy with you later - why not make a SACTO OOC thread so we can discuss it there?

Still lack of referring to it.

Blimey, so demanding. In case you haven't noticed, I'm trying to address points from multiple people when I have lots of other things to do, which means it's going to have to wait until Tuesday at the earliest.

Plus, this whole incident has had quite enough discussion on this thread. I suggest we take it to TGs/IRCs.
Last edited by Libraria and Ausitoria on Sun Feb 07, 2016 3:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
The Aestorian Commonwealth - Pax Prosperitas - Gloria in Maere - (Factbook)

Disclaimer: Notwithstanding any mention of their nations, Ausitoria and its canon does not exist nor impact the canon of many IFC & SACTO & closed-region nations; and it is harassment to presume it does. However in accordance with my open-door policy the converse does not apply: they still impact Ausitoria's canon.
○ Commonwealth Capital (Bank) ○ ○ Commonwealth Connect (Bank Treaty) ○ ○ SeaScape (Shipping & Energy) ○
(██████████████████████████████║║◙█[Θ]█]◙◙◙◙◙[█]

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Allanea
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 26059
Founded: Antiquity
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Allanea » Sun Feb 07, 2016 3:45 am

Imagine if Japan had had the ability to nuke America back. Would anybody really have been able to win? Discuss.


Both the Soviet and US government, in their military planning, intended to win WW3 if one erupted.

But in your post you explicitly referred to a situation in which nukes cannot be used.
Last edited by Allanea on Sun Feb 07, 2016 3:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Sometimes, there really is money on the sidewalk.

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Greater Carloso
Diplomat
 
Posts: 884
Founded: Dec 24, 2015
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Greater Carloso » Sun Feb 07, 2016 3:58 am

Wow, another half dozen pages of arguing? I think I'll distance myself from participating.
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Common Territories
Senator
 
Posts: 4745
Founded: Nov 08, 2011
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Common Territories » Sun Feb 07, 2016 4:01 am

Libraria and Ausitoria wrote:
Common Territories wrote:No you see, you can't just decide because I decided to sanction IFC and you recently that you probably traded with me before that. Canon establishing doesn't work like that.

Actually it does. Ausitoria has certainly directly traded with nations that have directly traded with TECT, and with even more nations that have traded with nations that have directly traded with TECT, and with even more nations that have traded with nations that have traded with nations that have directly traded with TECT, etc., etc...

I call it 'no first order discontinuities in cannon'.

I'm not saying it's much trade, nor would it have been significant to either of our nations.


Seriously? You can't get over the fact you're not allowed to have any trade with me huh? You gotta grab at any straw possible just so you can claim you trade with everyone on the planet because now you're apparently some super trade nation that solves the issues at hand with trading. Well the world doesn't work perfectly as that, you have no trade here in TECT even if you like to think you do because I may trade with some people you may trade with (actually, I wonder how many other people you're lumping in there because they haven't seen this and you just add them in because you want to - because we've all seen here that you consider everyone your trade partner whether they agreed to it or not, cause fuck their control over their creativity right?). If you want to be that liberal about this subject, here's something to ponder. Long before this whole thing started, long before I even knew of your name, quite a few IFC nations bought from me military hardware. I have records on the storefront that shows who purchased stuff and when, and I have a pretty good memory that a few people in this alliance if they're still around own DPRs at the very least from Wolf Armaments. Basically that means they're allowed to produce my gear they bought rights to for their uses. So if say the IFC went to war or fought in whatever conflict I wonder how many actually do have my arms still? If that's the case then I by default am to thank for your country's safety since allies of yours use my gear. Are you seeing the leap of logic yet?

And quite frankly, trade isn't an option to click on like in Total War games - you can have thousands upon hundreds of thousands of boats waiting for cargo to transport, but if there's no company in country F buying what you got or a business in country G buying products produced in your country, your ships are just useless. My point here is that you have no trade with me and grasping desperately to the thought your actions somewhere else affect me is pointless. Because they don't. You will never have control over me one way or another, trade wise, politically, or even militarily. I've had bigger rivals try and fail. If Lyras can't buy me out what fucking makes you think you can?

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Singaporean Transhumans
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5748
Founded: Dec 31, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Singaporean Transhumans » Sun Feb 07, 2016 4:46 am

Apologies for my ignorance, but when did the word exchanges and page-long arguments began?

If it was this way for, say, a year, I'll congratulate you all for managing to maintain it for this long.
SYNCRETIC COMBINE - SINKRETIČKE KOMBINAT
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Libraria and Ausitoria
Negotiator
 
Posts: 7099
Founded: May 30, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Libraria and Ausitoria » Sun Feb 07, 2016 4:54 am

Yup. They flare up periodically. It's a good sign, I think, provided we keep them under control. It means discussion and debate and activity.

Any interest in setting up a military HQ command with something along these lines? Carloso, you offered an island citadel as a base at some point? Or shall we have a competition for the IFC Milcom?

Common Territories wrote:[...]
What are you talking about? What makes you think I think I even need to have control over your trade? My point is, merely by trading with other nations, you are indirectly trading with Ausitoria, and nothing you say or do is going to change that. You don't even need to entirely exist, never mind agree to it. That should be patently obvious to anyone with a rudimentary understanding of the applicability of probability and chaos theory to economic approximations, in particular stochastic/brownian models. For God's sake stay on topic. And the significance of such trade is below the level of significance so it doesn't matter anyway - we're (literally) arguing about nothing important, the tail end of statistical significance, if you like.

And I'm not continuing any further discussion on the subject: there's nothing more to add, except perhaps a detailed explanation, but that would require probability density functions, and I'm not too inclined to bother - unless anyone asks by TG out of actual interest in the subject.
Last edited by Libraria and Ausitoria on Sun Feb 07, 2016 5:02 am, edited 6 times in total.
The Aestorian Commonwealth - Pax Prosperitas - Gloria in Maere - (Factbook)

Disclaimer: Notwithstanding any mention of their nations, Ausitoria and its canon does not exist nor impact the canon of many IFC & SACTO & closed-region nations; and it is harassment to presume it does. However in accordance with my open-door policy the converse does not apply: they still impact Ausitoria's canon.
○ Commonwealth Capital (Bank) ○ ○ Commonwealth Connect (Bank Treaty) ○ ○ SeaScape (Shipping & Energy) ○
(██████████████████████████████║║◙█[Θ]█]◙◙◙◙◙[█]

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Organized States
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8426
Founded: Apr 26, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Organized States » Sun Feb 07, 2016 4:59 am

Libraria and Ausitoria wrote:Yup. They flare up periodically.

Any interest in setting up a military HQ command with something along these lines? Carloso, you offered an island citadel as a base at some point? Or shall we have a competition for the IFC Milcom?

I can host it, potentially.

It depends on the needs of the organization, in the end.
Thank God for OS!- Deian
"In the old days, the navigators used magic to make themselves strong, but now, nothing; they just pray. Before they leave and at sea, they pray. But I, I make myself strong by thinking—just by thinking! I make myself strong because I despise cowardice. Too many men are afraid of the sea. But I am a navigator."-Mau Piailug
"I regret that I have only one life to give to my island." -Ricardo Bordallo, 2nd Governor of Guam
"Both are voyages of exploration. Hōkūle‘a is in the past, Columbia is in the future." -Colonel Charles L. Veach, USAF, Astronaut and Navigation Enthusiast

Pacific Islander-American (proud member of the 0.5%), Officer to be

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