PL: The EPIC OOC - closed thread

[Swith Witherward]

I read every one-shot. I like them, TBH. It's like reading fanfic but written by the actual author... so not fanfic, but the author's take on things if they could break canon for just a little while.

Cer's waiting for everyone to post for this round of the Boar hunt before he advances. I'm going to have Minerva chime in at the pavilion (he's letting me borrow Fritz), but I'll wait for more players to respond before going further. It's also an early night for me. I'm exhausted.

Posted!

I actually felt pretty good writing that post out. Make it more about characterizing Drova, than the negative stuff.

EDIT: I just thought about this really. But what's going to be the game plan when the characters gone on Gio's story return? I've been gone too long to reasonably jump back into playing Yuna while she's participating, but what of when she returns? That's a lot of memories and stuff that I won't know about, and already she's kind of stopped feeling like my character alltogether by now.

We could always make it so Yuna remembers nothing once Rache leaves her. He sucks all the memories up as he departs to spare her from any lingering insanity.


edit: Goodnight, PLeeps!

[Torsiedelle]

I've gone ahead and asked various players questions regarding PL. Consider this a sort of look into the two camps that seem to have formed.

Consider this a TG to ask you three some questions regarding the state of PL and it's IC, players, etc etc etc. This is for a project. Right now, we're simply asking players for opinions.
So: Your honest, HONEST opinion on PL. Thoughts on the IC? Is there anything wrong with PL? Anything that should be changed? Anything to say to the powers that be? Are there old aspects that you miss, or any complaints?
I would include NVE, but he's jumped ship, so yeah...

So far, two people I've asked haven't replied. They're older players who have stopped posting as heavily, one a classic player.

I spent a good day chatting with two players in Skype. Below is the general opinion condensed into four bullets.

1. Warhammer 40K influences and how it negatively impacts mundane characters by presenting mundane characters with impossible situations, that only appropriately powerful characters can face, and usually these are the important main storylines, so no one with mundane characters has any reason to care

2. Too much old RP baggage from RP's before PL. It bogs down characters that would otherwise be important elsewhere, and has been used a bit too much in shaping PL's narrative (Think Agy's character and his history with Swith/Cer's)

3. Too much reliance on the OPs for world-building, means we need to rely on them all the time to describe the environment if we want to go exploring/adventuring, and ends up stagnant when the OPs can't be on to describe things.

That's basically all I can think of, and those were our best points to elaborate on.

Oh!

4. Too much reliance/control on the OPs part for stories as well. PL is about everyone, not just the narrative of the OP's characters being the major arcing plot.

5.* Prior to this, it was said by one player that they felt like the powers that be didn't take the complaints of Mundanes vs Supers seriously due to differences in RP styles and said players not playing mundanes anyways, unless in tool roles.

**A second player involved in this chat requested I not reveal names to keep the innocent safe, whatever the fuck that means.

So, this first bit is in the "Poptart" Camp. Then, we have a Popsicle, Giovenith.

Thoughts on IC: Just fine.
Anything wrong?: Nothing that players can't fix by taking individual responsibility and intiative.
Anything that should be changed?: Not really.
Anything to say to powers that be?: Hi.
Old aspects missed?: No, and despite what they say, I'm not sure most people here do either. There's always this nostalgic longing for "old PL," but much like most pining for "the good ol' days," nobody seems to actually have a clue what they mean by that and have instead constructed a mythical story in their heads about a Golden Age that never evidently existed. People have been given opportunities to act like "old PL," whatever they believe that means, in the past, and they always inevitably wind up sticking with PL's newer serious format of their own volition, even the people who were constantly waxing nostalgia before about "the good ol' days of PL."
When I go back to the old PL threads and actually look at what happened back then objectively, it was not as great as everybody pretends it was. The reason it seemed so exciting then was because nobody knew each other and the canon of the world was unestablished and easy to mold, and that is simply NOT something that can be recreated via being pulled from the CoOPs' asses. And it doesn't need to be. If by "old PL" people mean zany adventures pulled from the blue, that can EASILY still be done, I do it pretty much whenever I feel like it, as opposed to those who never seem to feel like it and then complain when it doesn't happen to them or who don't think about how the adventure might effect others before launching it and feel persecuted when others step in and tell them to stop wrecking everyone's stuff. If by "old PL" people mean a time when no one gave a damn about making their characters more than gag-performers who could get away with launching nukes, shooting people, and limiting their depth to the occasional outburst about what a terrible life they've had, no, I don't miss that. I enjoy putting hard work into stories and characters and trying my best to make them grow, and I'm tired of people acting like it's some big burden to them that I do, tired of feeling pride at being able to step to the plate only to have that fact responded to with, "UGGGGGGHHHH but why can't we just go back to OLD PL where nobody did this stuff, I miss not having to care or try or restrain myself!"
So do I miss any fundamental game set up from old? No. I miss certain players, characters, old versions of characters, etc. (like NVE), but no, in my opinion, the core format that was old PL is dead and can stay dead. Anything good about it is still easily recreateable so long as people are willing to actually get off their bums and look both ways before crossing the street. Everything else can easily be gotten from the F7 location threads, or could until the latest sex scandal, which I think says something about the "greatness" of an RP of complete zaniness and no standards.
That's my HONEST opinion.

Rather critical of anything that would deviate from the new PL. That's fine. The next bit of input seems to be the opposite, coming from Fvaar, who also brings up a point I've tried to make before.

I think we have a weird tendency to slow down to a glacial pace, but can end up with spurts of activity. Even the glacial pace is typically eventful, though - it's just a tiny timeframe. We're an extremely dedicated group. As a general rule, we focus intensely on introspection, at times to the detriment of action.
I think we need more silly. We haven't had anything purely goofy and light in awhile - the Island got dark fast this year, and we've People are hesitant to run silly side stuff, or too busy. I think the Building is supposed to be a haven of sorts for characters, and I honestly feel that silly fun is a part of that. Epic quests are all well and good, but we need to catch our breath occasionally. Besides, we've been treating the center of this RP, a venerable character in its own right and downright extraordinary, as the place you have to /leave/ for anything cool to happen; as a gray background for chatter. Does _Doctor Who_ ignore the Tardis? I Let's bring the Naked Fairy back and give her some awkward siblings! Let's grab that genderbending slime monster! Make the Building interesting again! We can be as serious as we want on quests, or quite possibly in the Building, but let's goof off more than /once a year./
Besides, silly stuff can be extremely memorable - take Utherwishwashum for example! - and contribute to char development. I do not mean to make light of your position, but as an example - gender benders are funny, but a character realizing that they're fine with either or /more/ comfortable as the other? Development. The example is valid for cis, too: A misandrist could learn a valuable lesson about how similar we are. I've actually been hoping to do exactly that with Rmwtyliin since not long after her introduction.
We're very silly people. When we care deeply about our stories, we breathe life into them - and, silly as it seems, we care about being silly. What if that's all we need to stop stalling and post energetically - some laughter?
*is now considering emulating Piers Anthony and running a serious quest /packed/ with silly mishaps and puns*...maybe MUCH later
Wrong with players...we're stressed, grumpy, and less understanding than usual. I think we also were expecting the Island to be light - instead of endangering multiple residents directly and /the entire village/ if the boars weren't provided.
I do think we have a tendency to start chattering - but that's likely because the visible options are be parked, hang out alone, chat, or manage to join someone's typically-epic-and-ongoing story, and chat offers the most opportunity without committing a character for what often is months of real time. Not to mention, the epic quests can be intimidating...
A nice thing about silly stories is that they're flexible. Plot holes? What plot holes?
Not to knock epic quests! They're great, but if you try to juggle too many...
Epic fail. . Hence, we often do have chars at the Building...and we're all focused on external stories, so they sit and chat. A bit is cool to watch. A lot gets old fast.
On a character level... This has come from Swith and (apparently independently) Slobo. We need to seriously work on teamwork. Many characters are bad at working EFFECTIVELY as a team. Frankly, I think the only reason mine aren't is because their builds restrict them to being all but ineffective alone /and/ predispose them to support roles. I think that you'll see a very similar effect with Flan, actually. I do agree with Swith on another point: Torii will be very effective if you'll let her snipe from cover, and I hope you do, because I wish to read of the look on our next bad guy's face when a teeny human's tiny bullet RUINS their evil plan!
*evil grin*
Appreciatively,
Fvaar.

**Extra TG:
Light tends to get conflated with poor quality, or chatter, but that's a false dichotomy. Have you ever read any of the Xanth novels? Serious quests, typically with the fate of at least people if not the land hanging in the balance - and yet they're light, funny reads AND well written.

So I have two who are nostalgic/critical, one who is all for how things are, and one who sympathizes with Camp Poptart and who gets what I say - that light and fun does NOT = lawless.

NVE, from what I heard, isn't returning. He left NS, and simply didn't see a reason to continue PL.

Me? I'm just posting this because it's relevant to ongoing discussion concerning PL. Anyways, Prim and Carly have yet to reply. I didn't ask Ched, although I'm curious as to his opinion. Obviously NA and the Co-OP's are Camp Popsicle. I've had enough arguments to know that.

I think Fvaar makes some good points concerning this.

I am a fan of the decision to expand the Burrows for lighter play, and moving away from Ascalon, a gritty and restrictive environment. I'm also happy to see more activity and stories happening around the building rather than relying on gates. See: Swordplay for Dummies.

---

I'm not removing this post, unless you all want me too. I know it's bad. I know I'm an ass for posting it. I'm fucking angry at myself for thinking it a good idea. I'm sorry. I hate myself right now.

[Torsiedelle]

ON THAT NOTE

Why not have something light AND serious? Anyone a fan of murder mystery dinners? Where people have dinner at a fancy place, where actors fake a murder, and guests play as detecives and try to solve the crime? Why not do that at the building? It wouldn't harm anyone and could allow OP's to drop their subtle hints and secret words so that players could figure it out. It would be a perfect training opportunity! No holodeck, no violence, no...well, there will be drama...it's a dinner murder mystery act.

[Holy Lykos]

You assume I don't like light and silly? I might be more a fan of detail, but that doesn't mean I don't enjoy light too.

[Torsiedelle]

You assume I don't like light and silly? I might be more a fan of detail, but that doesn't mean I don't enjoy light too.

T'was an assumption, yes. Apologies if it isn't so, Mi amigo

[Holy Lykos]

You assume I don't like light and silly? I might be more a fan of detail, but that doesn't mean I don't enjoy light too.

T'was an assumption, yes. Apologies if it isn't so, Mi amigo

All good. Assumptions tend to not be the best idea though!

I do admit I enjoy the bigger stuff more than small. But hell, simple things are amusing in their own ways too. Murder mystery and stuff like that would be amazing fun.

[Torsiedelle]

T'was an assumption, yes. Apologies if it isn't so, Mi amigo

All good. Assumptions tend to not be the best idea though!

I do admit I enjoy the bigger stuff more than small. But hell, simple things are amusing in their own ways too. Murder mystery and stuff like that would be amazing fun.

Exactly.

Although Fvaar and I already have something in the works, a Murder Mystery Dinner would be great for players and GM's. It would be lighthearted and zanny, but also require attention to detail and a bit of teamwork, and GM's could play a dark story.

Also, any more spontaneous stories. Gio brought up a point. Want more crazy? Make it. Nothing at the building to stop a random old-fashioned clothes stealing fairy or love bomb or some stupid shit.

[Giovenith]

I still see most these as issues that arise from a lack of intiative on the part of players.

When I wanted to run a silly story about a giant spider that came out of nowhere and attacked everyone, I did. When I wanted to run a silly story about evil toothbrushes and flying turtles, I did. No one stopped me. If I want to do something even stupider after this whole boar thing, I can. The only obstacle is making sure it stays out of the way of anyone who doesn't want to participate. I have a hard time taking the old "there's no silly things! we want more than drama conversation!" complaint seriously when I know from experience how easy it is to pull a silly story out of nothing and how often I see players given free reign for silly stories yet willingly squander it on drama talk.

The only options are not hang out/chat or join an epic quest, the third option is take the time you would have spent on chatting and actually come up with something. Go fight the monster under your bed. Go discover a colony of zombie gerbils trapped in a jar like Pandora's box. Go get sucked into a virtual video game world. Go write and perform a play. Go get cursed by a possessed record player. Those are all things I pulled off the top of my head and don't require leaving the Building, and yet it often feels like for some reason I'm the only one capable of doing this, not to sound like I'm full of myself. I feel like a jerk for saying this, but not everything can be handed to players on a silver platter, instead of sitting around wondering why nothing zany has happened, instead ask yourself: "Hey, have I actually done anything zany lately?" Because from my perspective, almost nobody who complains about not getting to do something zany has ever actually tried to run a zany story, they just expect everyone else to create something they can join.

Again, not trying to be an ass, but thus far I've found that sugarcoating hasn't really done much to communicate this.

[Torsiedelle]

I still see most these as issues that arise from a lack of intiative on the part of players.

When I wanted to run a silly story about a giant spider that came out of nowhere and attacked everyone, I did. When I wanted to run a silly story about evil toothbrushes and flying turtles, I did. No one stopped me. If I want to do something even stupider after this whole boar thing, I can. The only obstacle is making sure it stays out of the way of anyone who doesn't want to participate. I have a hard time taking the old "there's no silly things! we want more than drama conversation!" complaint seriously when I know from experience how easy it is to pull a silly story out of nothing and how often I see players given free reign for silly stories yet willingly squander it on drama talk.

The only options are not hang out/chat or join an epic quest, the third option is take the time you would have spent on chatting and actually come up with something. Go fight the monster under your bed. Go discover a colony of zombie gerbils trapped in a jar like Pandora's box. Go get sucked into a virtual video game world. Go write and perform a play. Go get cursed by a possessed record player. Those are all things I pulled off the top of my head and don't require leaving the Building, and yet it often feels like for some reason I'm the only one capable of doing this, not to sound like I'm full of myself. I feel like a jerk for saying this, but not everything can be handed to players on a silver platter, instead of sitting around wondering why nothing zany has happened, instead ask yourself: "Hey, have I actually done anything zany lately?" Because from my perspective, almost nobody who complains about not getting to do something zany has ever actually tried to run a zany story, they just expect everyone else to create something they can join.

Again, not trying to be an ass, but thus far I've found that sugarcoating hasn't really done much to communicate this.

Ta, muchly.

[Fvaarniimar]

I think we're hesitant to run stuff in the Building because it is, in a big way, seen as the staff's domain. I think it's rather like running stories: we didn't know that it was okay to throw our own stuff in, especially those of us who still felt new and didn't want to mess things up. Once we had official permission, though...stories took off.

Are the staff, Swith and Cer especially, okay with us finding monsters in apartments? For one, logically the security system should handle them. Are we allowed to override it for the sake of zaniness? Are we even allowed to add a cursing possessed record player - especially if it isn't listed OOC as in our characters' apartments?
Being such an old and respected player seems to grant you a lot of confidence to /do/ these zany things, Giovenith. The rest of us, it seems, wait to be told it's okay.

[Holy Lykos]

I think we're hesitant to run stuff in the Building because it is, in a big way, seen as the staff's domain. I think it's rather like running stories: we didn't know that it was okay to throw our own stuff in, especially those of us who still felt new and didn't want to mess things up. Once we had official permission, though...stories took off.

Are the staff, Swith and Cer especially, okay with us finding monsters in apartments? For one, logically the security system should handle them. Are we allowed to override it for the sake of zaniness? Are we even allowed to add a cursing possessed record player - especially if it isn't listed OOC as in our characters' apartments?
Being such an old and respected player seems to grant you a lot of confidence to /do/ these zany things, Giovenith. The rest of us, it seems, wait to be told it's okay.

I think its because she asks, more than being an old player. At least in my opinion. One issue is more that the random nature of said things makes it hard to get the "OK" from the ops before you lose interest in the idea.

[Giovenith]

Sorry Mystery Person, but I'm taking this apart.

1. Warhammer 40K influences and how it negatively impacts mundane characters by presenting mundane characters with impossible situations, that only appropriately powerful characters can face, and usually these are the important main storylines, so no one with mundane characters has any reason to care

I'm not a 40K fan, and I have never felt it intrusive. My own canons have always been taken into consideration for the worldbuilding, and as I demonstrated not two days ago, the "nothing for mundanes to do" complaint has yet to have any evidence given towards it's legitimacy outside of players "feeling like it," which is torn down even more so when you see that players already have such trouble coming up with minor stories let alone ways to participate in heavy tasks.

2. Too much old RP baggage from RP's before PL. It bogs down characters that would otherwise be important elsewhere, and has been used a bit too much in shaping PL's narrative (Think Agy's character and his history with Swith/Cer's)

Important elsewhere? Like where? Where do Septimus or Minerva need to be so damn badly that they aren't right now? Interacting with you? I'm sorry, but no one is entitled to any other character's attention. "Thinking Agy's character," I fail to see how his story has effected anything but his own character and the ones connected to him, it didn't do anything to PL as a whole. The stories grab attention and are compelling to onlookers, there's a difference between that and taking over PL.

3. Too much reliance on the OPs for world-building, means we need to rely on them all the time to describe the environment if we want to go exploring/adventuring, and ends up stagnant when the OPs can't be on to describe things.

Sometimes this can be issue, but it's an issue that is intrinsic to any GM. Prim can't know what the Umbrum caves look like, Gio can't know what the inside of the Monfrox base looks like. When we all put together our own shops and businesses for Galli, that was a way for people to not have to rely on the OP's descriptions, you just have to rely on the person who designed the business, which is especially easy if it happens to be the business you yourself created - nobody seems to remember those.

4. Too much reliance/control on the OPs part for stories as well. PL is about everyone, not just the narrative of the OP's characters being the major arcing plot.

Then stop relying on the OP to hand all your stories and opportunities to you. Cer has taken other people's stuff into account and woven it in before, it just takes you actually doing something. You're upset about relying on someone else making a storyline for you yet so few people lift a finger to do anything but follow what's given to them. You're basically expecting Cer to just magically know what you want do and give it to you, and THAT is what's not fair.

5.* Prior to this, it was said by one player that they felt like the powers that be didn't take the complaints of Mundanes vs Supers seriously due to differences in RP styles and said players not playing mundanes anyways, unless in tool roles.

I feel like the complaints about Mundanes vs. Supers were not presented in such a way that anyone could consider what the hell you want people to do about it or where the problem even specifically lies. "I just feel like there's an imbalance" doesn't tell anyone anything, you're again expecting the CoOPs to be mind readers. You can't fix an imbalance if you don't even know what stories had an imbalance, why that imbalance wasn't justified, what specific actions you would have done differently, etc., etc. Until people stop being vague and unspecific in this complaint, it won't be taken seriously because there's literally nothing that can be done to take it seriously, they don't know what you want them to do. And no, "give mundanes more stuff to do" is NOT a helpful answer, why isn't what you've already be given could enough? What SPECIFIC tasks do you want to do?

I'm half tempted to run an entirely human character myself just to see if I can actually find this legendary imbalance, because it seems that's the only way I'd get answers.

I think we're hesitant to run stuff in the Building because it is, in a big way, seen as the staff's domain. I think it's rather like running stories: we didn't know that it was okay to throw our own stuff in, especially those of us who still felt new and didn't want to mess things up. Once we had official permission, though...stories took off.

Are the staff, Swith and Cer especially, okay with us finding monsters in apartments? For one, logically the security system should handle them. Are we allowed to override it for the sake of zaniness? Are we even allowed to add a cursing possessed record player - especially if it isn't listed OOC as in our characters' apartments?
Being such an old and respected player seems to grant you a lot of confidence to /do/ these zany things, Giovenith. The rest of us, it seems, wait to be told it's okay.

It's the other way around. I'm respected because I have the confidence to do those things, not confident because I'm respected. Some of the people complaining have been here as long as me, so seniority obviously doesn't help.

There are unspoken rules to take into account when running a zany story:

1) Does it mess with fundamental canon? This usually just boils down to not messing with the god system, not doing something to the setting that would get you arrested in real life, and not bending someone else's personal canon, e.g., no one can say they slept with Pearlelei.

2) Is there anything that should reasonably be grabbing the characters' attentions moreso at the moment? In essence, is somebody dying right there in the room or is an undead army marching towards the Building? Once during an invasion, we had characters who were supposed to be top-ranking military leaders stop what they were doing to play spin the bottle - that shouldn't be happening.

3) Is it out of the way of anyone who doesn't want to join? Common courtesy. If Anna and Stacy are having a picnic outside, it's probably not a good idea to make a machine that makes it rain goo, unless they specifically said they're okay with that. Don't pour gasoline into the pool and set it on fire if other characters are swimming there... unless for some reason they're okay with that.

4) Are you prepared to accept the consequences that may result? This is one a lot of people struggle it. To name a good example, NA's old character once beat up Torii out of boredom on her birthday. As a result, he lost Gio's friendship. NA accepted that graciously, but we've had problems before with players being unable to comprehend that they should have to take responsibility for their actions. Machiavelli's famous phrase "The end justifies the means" is more accurately translated as, "To the consequences look before you act." Sometimes the consequences are things you won't expect, but it has to be played through anyway.

If you can follow those, you can pretty much do whatever you want.

[Holy Lykos]

To be fair with that example, I knew bad shit would happen. The character was bored, too. I'd decided before that given his personality, when octavian gets bored he acts irrationally or causes problems just to entertain himself. Given his lack of care about consequences, beating up someone he doesn't know seems a good way to spend time to him.

I'm glad I ditched that character.


Also my most mundane character is Venla. Her only abilities are something any hz can do, so by her standards she's a mundane. She's not supernatural, just a researcher.

[Giovenith]

To be fair with that example, I knew bad shit would happen. The character was bored, too. I'd decided before that given his personality, when octavian gets bored he acts irrationally or causes problems just to entertain himself. Given his lack of care about consequences, beating up someone he doesn't know seems a good way to spend time to him.

I'm glad I ditched that character.


Also my most mundane character is Venla. Her only abilities are something any hz can do, so by her standards she's a mundane. She's not supernatural, just a researcher.

Yes, you looked to the consequences, you followed number 4 exactly right. You knew Octavian would get in trouble instead of acting aghast at the idea that there would be backlash. Not everyone has done that, some people have become genuinely surprised when having their character threaten to kill someone's family to their face was met with violence.

[Torsiedelle]

Gio, did I mention you're awesome when it gets to real talk?

Bah, I oughtto...wait, IC Hasn't moved a lot today. Keeping an eye on that boar hunt. Should be good...maybe. Never know.

Ah...I remember Octavian. Kek.

I would personally chalk up the hesitance to do zany on the new tone of PL. (Shit, just forgot what I was about to say.) Seeing Gio pull off the few crazy stories? Cool, but I think some players may have gotten "new rules and consequences" confused with "I fuckin dare ya to try a silly here m8", and assumed that your stories were accepted due to your good standing in PL. My logic, anyways, but I'm just more looking at both sides at this point.


Unrelated, but pookie just kinda...is ignored now. Lol.

[Stormwrath]

Can't post today peeps, currently hauling my ass home. I feel tired from all the New Years thing.

[Torsiedelle]

Can't post today peeps, currently hauling my ass home. I feel tired from all the New Years thing.

Oh, you

De nada, de nada. Be safe.

[Swith]

I'm using my secondary account rather than my Mentor account. This post is coming from my heart... a response as a player... and not as a Mentor.

I've gone ahead and asked various players questions regarding PL. Consider this a sort of look into the two camps that seem to have formed.

Consider this a TG to ask you three some questions regarding the state of PL and it's IC, players, etc etc etc. This is for a project. Right now, we're simply asking players for opinions.
So: Your honest, HONEST opinion on PL. Thoughts on the IC? Is there anything wrong with PL? Anything that should be changed? Anything to say to the powers that be? Are there old aspects that you miss, or any complaints?
I would include NVE, but he's jumped ship, so yeah...
STOP STIRRING THE POT. ENOUGH. YOU HAVE BEEN DOING THIS FOR YEARS... WHENEVER YOU DON'T GET YOUR WAY, YOU TURN ON A PASSIVE-AGGRESSIVE ATTITUDE THAT DRIVES WEDGES BETWEEN PLAYERS.

So far, two people I've asked haven't replied. They're older players who have stopped posting as heavily, one a classic player.
PEOPLE DON'T WANT TO BE DRAGGED INTO THIS SHIT. RESPECT THAT.

I spent a good day chatting with two players in Skype. Below is the general opinion condensed into four bullets.

1. Warhammer 40K influences and how it negatively impacts mundane characters by presenting mundane characters with impossible situations, that only appropriately powerful characters can face, and usually these are the important main storylines, so no one with mundane characters has any reason to care
Tough shit. I loathe anime. I especially loathe "teen" anything. I actively seek out catgirls in ICs and kill them because it's fun. Is it trollish? Not really. My characters always have a build-in intolerance towards them. That said, I have tolerated your characters and their petty angst for years. I have held my tongue as you INSULTED lesbians by stereotyping them. I have held my tongue each time you and others APPROPRIATED Asian culture in order to portray your characters in a manner that is, in fact, considered racist. No more.

1. Boars are not "impossible situations.
2. Drones were impossible situations. Do you remember how much complaining everyone did because Dani was godmoding a ton of shit and disrupting all the F7 RPing? I saved those TG. I had to refrain from using my god characters, and I did not use them until the last invasion... because Dani was set to tear shit up and destroy the game itself. You may thank me.
   
   
3. Most PBEM and PBP RP that allow for "just about any character" have tool characters to keep inexperienced players in check. I have used my character (Swith) in tool mode twice: once to stop Urran from fighting in the Chaos Restaurant (he and Bran were rapid posting, and he had NOT read my rule about no fighting in there) and once to bubble a character that was going postal (players were complaining using stern language). In both cases, I was the OP. Cer has used his characters in tool mode twice: Once when he had Klaus shoot Tsu (she didn't have the chance to dodge it... and he's a GOD, so using an old Walther is pretty funny) and once when he had Klaus withstand the Drone blast because GT was being a stubborn twit and didn't have Thriller seek shelter. All other times, we have used our characters' powers in a humorous way, usually as a means to teach players to think before posting foolishly (case in point: Urran and the cow). The rest of the time, we have used our characters to revive other characters from the dead when they have offed themselves via their own stupidity. This last action will no longer be done. Consider Tori perma-dead.
   
   
4. The reason there are Chaos and Nifid elements is because it was the easiest way to insert shit in order to wargame against all the invasions. We did just enough security to keep things in balance for mortals... and we did it because players demanded we do it. You're welcome.
   
   
5. Maybe if you didn't bail on EVERY STORY, you would see the light stuff. Jesus God, Cer is the god of blitz posting. He loves light and fluffy, and he uses humor when he blitzes. That's why Klaus is the way it is.

2. Too much old RP baggage from RP's before PL. It bogs down characters that would otherwise be important elsewhere, and has been used a bit too much in shaping PL's narrative (Think Agy's character and his history with Swith/Cer's)
Too much of your own baggage inserted into your characters. Your apathy towards life is manifested in both Katya and Torsi. Your lack of real life goals is clear when we look at the characters' goals. As for "old RP baggage"... I'm sorry Minerva and Klaus' love story, which started a few PL threads back, bothers you. I can't help it if you choose to make love stories with flaky players. And Sep and Nes never had a love story before now. They were basic characters from a diplomacy RP. Lots of people bring in old characters. All the stuff you see now? A lot of that is clever restructuring of canon as well as impromptu silliness on our parts. This is the manifestation of storyteller roleplayers' love for their craft. Stop being so jealous of our stuff.

3. Too much reliance on the OPs for world-building, means we need to rely on them all the time to describe the environment if we want to go exploring/adventuring, and ends up stagnant when the OPs can't be on to describe things.

1. That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. Here: viewtopic.php?p=29797335#p29797335. Read all those. Players were asked to contribute ideas, and Cer made them canon. Players have always been welcome to craft their stuff into PL. The problem is that YOU would come up with ideas and then not follow through with using them in the IC. That isn't our fault.
   
   Also, the OP works 18 hour days, counting commute time. We should be grateful he runs anything. BE FUCKING PATIENT for once. The PL world does NOT revolve around your attempts to ease your boredom. Stop doing that. It's the hallmark of ingratitude.
   
   
2. When I constructed Bielefeld, I asked players what they wanted. A lot of the "hidden" things were simply tributes to every active player: MB's mosaic in the fish market, Tsu's statues in the Japanese garden, etc.
   
   
3. We ran Personification Player for the SOLE PURPOSE of letting PLAYERS restructure the ENTIRE setting. They wrote the descriptions. They came up with new places. They tweaked established-but-never-defined things like the library to give it a personal flare.
   
   
4. We have players crafting all of Alessio and the UA. Others will be asked to craft areas once we get to a point where characters would visit them. We do not turn to players that complain about complex things... we select known worldbuilders.
   
5. We handed players ABSOLUTE CONTROL over their games by allowing them to use Gates. Players may craft their own worlds there, and add elements. You did, up until you bailed on your own game and left your players hanging.

That's basically all I can think of, and those were our best points to elaborate on.

Oh!

4. Too much reliance/control on the OPs part for stories as well. PL is about everyone, not just the narrative of the OP's characters being the major arcing plot.
THEN RUN YOU OWN DAMN STORIES. Fuck me running, but we've been saying for a year "the Gates are there so you can run fantastical adventures". What stories have we seen?

• Torii is depressed and wants to kill herself.
• Torii feels lost and wants to make herself cyborg/a machine... but you never follow through.
• Your characters feel alone so we had to put up with Lidev, Dora, Yoshi, Drova and a lesbian crush on Giovenith.
• Katya got stuck with a baby and you had her give it up because it would cut into her plans for her: party girl, business owner, rich girl.
• I'd like to list a few others since arriving in Galli but, well, I can't think of any. All you do is have your characters sit around and suck the souls from players by forcing them to play therapist to your maladjusted brats.

5.* Prior to this, it was said by one player that they felt like the powers that be didn't take the complaints of Mundanes vs Supers seriously due to differences in RP styles and said players not playing mundanes anyways, unless in tool roles.
Cer never takes my requests seriously. I want to run my characters at their full potential, in isolated stories so I don't make players with mundane characters sit on the sidelines. "Aut, you can't do that. You have to think of balance. It wouldn't be fair to exclude..." This has been my pet peeve for 3 years. So please explain to me, Torsi, how your complaints aren't taken seriously?

**A second player involved in this chat requested I not reveal names to keep the innocent safe, whatever the fuck that means.
The people you talked to need to come forward because this is going to drive a deep wedge. Trust is broken. People feel like they can't speak freely. Gossip spreads like wildfire. You are destroying this group with your petty antics, Torii.
So, this first bit is in the "Poptart" Camp. Then, we have a Popsicle, Giovenith.

Giovenith plays both. She's crafted so many whimsical stories to entertain you. She plays an excellent light game. The problem is that YOU hate depth therefore YOU complain when she indulges in her love for something with meat. YOU are NOT going to dictate how people roleplay in PL. YOU have not earned that right.

Thoughts on IC: Just fine.
Anything wrong?: Nothing that players can't fix by taking individual responsibility and intiative.
Anything that should be changed?: Not really.
Anything to say to powers that be?: Hi.
Old aspects missed?: No, and despite what they say, I'm not sure most people here do either. There's always this nostalgic longing for "old PL," but much like most pining for "the good ol' days," nobody seems to actually have a clue what they mean by that and have instead constructed a mythical story in their heads about a Golden Age that never evidently existed. People have been given opportunities to act like "old PL," whatever they believe that means, in the past, and they always inevitably wind up sticking with PL's newer serious format of their own volition, even the people who were constantly waxing nostalgia before about "the good ol' days of PL."
When I go back to the old PL threads and actually look at what happened back then objectively, it was not as great as everybody pretends it was. The reason it seemed so exciting then was because nobody knew each other and the canon of the world was unestablished and easy to mold, and that is simply NOT something that can be recreated via being pulled from the CoOPs' asses. And it doesn't need to be. If by "old PL" people mean zany adventures pulled from the blue, that can EASILY still be done, I do it pretty much whenever I feel like it, as opposed to those who never seem to feel like it and then complain when it doesn't happen to them or who don't think about how the adventure might effect others before launching it and feel persecuted when others step in and tell them to stop wrecking everyone's stuff. If by "old PL" people mean a time when no one gave a damn about making their characters more than gag-performers who could get away with launching nukes, shooting people, and limiting their depth to the occasional outburst about what a terrible life they've had, no, I don't miss that. I enjoy putting hard work into stories and characters and trying my best to make them grow, and I'm tired of people acting like it's some big burden to them that I do, tired of feeling pride at being able to step to the plate only to have that fact responded to with, "UGGGGGGHHHH but why can't we just go back to OLD PL where nobody did this stuff, I miss not having to care or try or restrain myself!"
So do I miss any fundamental game set up from old? No. I miss certain players, characters, old versions of characters, etc. (like NVE), but no, in my opinion, the core format that was old PL is dead and can stay dead. Anything good about it is still easily recreateable so long as people are willing to actually get off their bums and look both ways before crossing the street. Everything else can easily be gotten from the F7 location threads, or could until the latest sex scandal, which I think says something about the "greatness" of an RP of complete zaniness and no standards.
That's my HONEST opinion.

Rather critical of anything that would deviate from the new PL. That's fine. The next bit of input seems to be the opposite, coming from Fvaar, who also brings up a point I've tried to make before.

I think we have a weird tendency to slow down to a glacial pace, but can end up with spurts of activity. Even the glacial pace is typically eventful, though - it's just a tiny timeframe. We're an extremely dedicated group. As a general rule, we focus intensely on introspection, at times to the detriment of action.
I think we need more silly. We haven't had anything purely goofy and light in awhile - the Island got dark fast this year, and we've People are hesitant to run silly side stuff, or too busy. I think the Building is supposed to be a haven of sorts for characters, and I honestly feel that silly fun is a part of that. Epic quests are all well and good, but we need to catch our breath occasionally. Besides, we've been treating the center of this RP, a venerable character in its own right and downright extraordinary, as the place you have to /leave/ for anything cool to happen; as a gray background for chatter. Does _Doctor Who_ ignore the Tardis? I Let's bring the Naked Fairy back and give her some awkward siblings! Let's grab that genderbending slime monster! Make the Building interesting again! We can be as serious as we want on quests, or quite possibly in the Building, but let's goof off more than /once a year./
Besides, silly stuff can be extremely memorable - take Utherwishwashum for example! - and contribute to char development. I do not mean to make light of your position, but as an example - gender benders are funny, but a character realizing that they're fine with either or /more/ comfortable as the other? Development. The example is valid for cis, too: A misandrist could learn a valuable lesson about how similar we are. I've actually been hoping to do exactly that with Rmwtyliin since not long after her introduction.
We're very silly people. When we care deeply about our stories, we breathe life into them - and, silly as it seems, we care about being silly. What if that's all we need to stop stalling and post energetically - some laughter?
*is now considering emulating Piers Anthony and running a serious quest /packed/ with silly mishaps and puns*...maybe MUCH later
Wrong with players...we're stressed, grumpy, and less understanding than usual. I think we also were expecting the Island to be light - instead of endangering multiple residents directly and /the entire village/ if the boars weren't provided.
I do think we have a tendency to start chattering - but that's likely because the visible options are be parked, hang out alone, chat, or manage to join someone's typically-epic-and-ongoing story, and chat offers the most opportunity without committing a character for what often is months of real time. Not to mention, the epic quests can be intimidating...
A nice thing about silly stories is that they're flexible. Plot holes? What plot holes?
Not to knock epic quests! They're great, but if you try to juggle too many...
Epic fail. . Hence, we often do have chars at the Building...and we're all focused on external stories, so they sit and chat. A bit is cool to watch. A lot gets old fast.
On a character level... This has come from Swith and (apparently independently) Slobo. We need to seriously work on teamwork. Many characters are bad at working EFFECTIVELY as a team. Frankly, I think the only reason mine aren't is because their builds restrict them to being all but ineffective alone /and/ predispose them to support roles. I think that you'll see a very similar effect with Flan, actually. I do agree with Swith on another point: Torii will be very effective if you'll let her snipe from cover, and I hope you do, because I wish to read of the look on our next bad guy's face when a teeny human's tiny bullet RUINS their evil plan!
*evil grin*
Appreciatively,
Fvaar.

**Extra TG:
Light tends to get conflated with poor quality, or chatter, but that's a false dichotomy. Have you ever read any of the Xanth novels? Serious quests, typically with the fate of at least people if not the land hanging in the balance - and yet they're light, funny reads AND well written.

Why don't you ask the people you dislike?
Thoughts on IC: We have players dropping the ball too much. The posts are fine. The shortposts work in well and carry stories. We have had a lot of people bogged down by work, by school, by illness, or with family matters, so we tend to see large gaps between posts (the larger stories). Players communicate well (or so I thought) and are very understanding about the delays. We do have a problem with some players not reading for content. We also have players that aren't too willing to give-and-take, but this is something players learn over time.
Anything wrong?: Pot stirring, whinging, and other poor behaviors exhibited by Torsi. The staff has discussed ways to alleviate her stress, and I have fought hard to defend her, but she still is abusive, caustic, and insulting towards other players... especially NA, Agy, Slo, and other players that enjoy storytelling.

Anything that should be changed?: After tonight. I'd like to see the problem booted from the group.

Anything to say to powers that be?: Min and Tilt and Cer, thank you for putting up with this, for compromising your own RP enjoyment and killing your own character dev to bail out bored players. Thank you for sending your characters on dull stories. That you for keeping upbeat about that, and for your continued efforts to help people grow. Thank you to Gio, our official PL RP Mentor. Thank you to Slo and Agy for all the hard work you've put in. Thank you to our GMS: Gio, Slo and NA. Your games add such a nice vibe to the IC. But the true powers that be are our players: THANK YOU for your characters, and your attempts to grow, and the work you put into your stuff. Thanks for being patient with us. Thanks, Torro, for joining us! It's a delight to have you with us! Thanks, Bran, for returning. Yes, you can be a pest, but I love you so dearly. PL doesn't exist without our players.

Old aspects missed?: None. It was a fucking nightmare to OP, and a draining environment to game in. Every time I was ready to quit, players asked me to stay. I couldn't bail on them. They're all good people. They deserve to game in a play where everyone is treated fairly regardless of their gender, gender identity, orientation, race, political affiliations, or religion. I stay because I've watched Bran and Gio grow in leaps and bounds. Gio now surpasses anything I could do, and I'm so damn proud of her for putting her mind to it. But I don't miss the grief. I don't miss the average of 8-20 (that's not a typo) TG a week complaining about what other players are doing to fuck up the setting. I don't miss the lack of continuity. I don't miss the "I'm backing my suitcase" days. I don't miss the attitudes. We've come a long way.

So I have two who are nostalgic/critical, one who is all for how things are, and one who sympathizes with Camp Poptart and who gets what I say - that light and fun does NOT = lawless.
Duh. Nobody has ever said Poptart play is lawless. However, in a game setting with overarching rules that we all have to follow, certain things have to be avoided. I don't like that. I'd like to mutilate some stuff. But I can't. Oh well. I won't let that deter me from fun in other areas.

NVE, from what I heard, isn't returning. He left NS, and simply didn't see a reason to continue PL.
I'm in close contact with him. Just chatted with him at Christmas. Stop listening to gossip from other people. NVE's life is complex and I won't go into all the reasons why he can't focus on NS/PL. Don't use his absence as a scoring point for your argument. NVE and I go way back. Way way back to the Diplomacy games and Meanwhile threads, though I had a different nation for Meanwhile.

Me? I'm just posting this because it's relevant to ongoing discussion concerning PL. Anyways, Prim and Carly have yet to reply. I didn't ask Ched, although I'm curious as to his opinion. Obviously NA and the Co-OP's are Camp Popsicle. I've had enough arguments to know that.
You're just posting this to stir the pot. You should have encouraged players to come forward instead of secretly doing this.

I think Fvaar makes some good points concerning this.
I think Fvaar is a big girl. She knows that she, like all other players, can TG the OP or CoOPs at any time. In fact, when people do, we take extra steps to see if their stuff is feasible... because BALANCE. We don't want people bringing in things that intentionally harm our mundane characters or those players' fun. All games set boundaries.

I am a fan of the decision to expand the Burrows for lighter play, and moving away from Ascalon, a gritty and restrictive environment. I'm also happy to see more activity and stories happening around the building rather than relying on gates. See: Swordplay for Dummies.What's stopping you? We've told people way too many times that they should do this. However, you can take your light stories into a Gate. The POPSICLES ARE NOT ALLOWED TO RUN THEIR MAJOR STORIES UNLESS IT TIES IN WITH THE OP'S SHIT. THIS PISSES ME OFF BUT OH WELL. NOTICE WHERE THE PONYS ARE, AND VENLA'S GROUP? SLO IS ABOUT TO SET OFF INTO A GATE, AND WE'VE TOLD HIM THAT WE NEED TO LIMIT HEAVY STORIES IN GALLI. If we have to use a Gate, so should you. THE GATES ARE THERE SO BLITZ PLAYERS DON'T INADVERTENTLY ADVANCE TIME, COME UP WITH WEIRD WEATHER WHEN PEOPLE HAVE PLANNED FOR SNOW OR RAIN, ETC.

You have, without a doubt, the most unappreciative attitude of anyone I have ever met. You don't seem to have much regard for other people's feelings. You excuse anything you don't understand as being "lame". Your attempt at being edgy has caused a lot of people to dislike you on a personal level, and I can't control that, though I've tried to defend your reasons each and every time they complain. You spend entirely too much time trying to gain attention in here by posting things like "I'm having a shit day".

Oh my god, your shit days! You want an eye opener? I can barely function IRL. Every day is a shit day, and some days are so shitty that I actually wonder if I'll wake up the next morning. No joke. My physical state has drastically deteriorated to the point where I'm forced to make emergency room trips so they can cram calcium into my veins before my heart stops. I fall down because I can't control my sugars. I weigh roughly 87 pounds despite my 2800 calorie a day diet... I'm supposed to be 110 at minimum. I wear a monitor that tracks my sugar, and I carry emergency injections with me because I lapse into a hypoglycemic state at least once a week. I can't take the monitor off... it's wired into my belly... so I really don't look good in any fashions for people my (young) age. Imagine having sex with a chick that has crappy looking electrodes inserted in her sunken belly. To top it off, I've lost my hair in some places, and my fatigue causes me to forget my own name. Some days, I can't even post. The medicine I take to keep my alive causes massive stones in my kidneys. I'm in constant, excruciating pain. And my veins have gotten so bad from the constant use that they're thinking of putting in a central line. My self esteem is so rock bottom that I refuse to be in any photographs. I look like a fucking Auschwitz victim. And all the while society judges me as being anorexic, and coping out by not putting more effort into being physically active, and tells me that diabetics thrive (I'm the opposite of a diabetic but the general public can't wrap their minds around that.) I'm bored as fuck because I can't do what everyone else my age is doing. And I really don't see myself here in 5 years... not my choice, if you catch my drift.

I have reasons to bitch. I don't. Very few PLers are aware of my conditions. I don't want attention. I don't need sympathy - I'm a strong bitch... I survived cancer. So please don't offer me hugs of support. I know you support me. Your signatures ARE my support, and when I'm down, I log into NS and I see those colorful things here in P2TM, and NS, and NSG, and I say to myself, "I will NOT let these people down. I will be strong." None of you deserve to be saddle with my burdens. You are all young, and you have your full lives ahead of you, and my greatest joy is watching each of you grow into beautiful adults. I'm so proud of people here. It's a fierce pride.

But I post when I'm physically able, damn it. I post to keep you happy even when I don't like the story. My time is very precious for obvious reasons. I post because I love you all. It's my gift. And when I'm gone, my storytelling moments with Agy, Cer, Min, NA,Gio... on and on... will be my legacy here. I want them to be able to look back on those posts and see the message my characters have: don't give up, believe in yourself, know your limitations and hone them.

So step and take your minor... SOLVABLE if you made some effort... problems with you. The door is the x at the top of your tab. Come back when you're ready to take charge of your own life instead of making excuses and blaming everyone else. This isn't healthy, Torsi. Return when you have done some introspection and realized that your negative attitude is palpable and brings people down. Return when you have finished feeling so poorly done by. Return with humility rather than behaving like an edge lord and insulting people in IRC by voicing baity opinions.

And if this post is reported, Mods will tear me a new one I'm sure. But I feel there comes a time when brutal honesty needs to be used. Our polite attempts and suggestions have all been brushed off, and the vitriolic quips from you are intensifying. It isn't my intent to come across as flaming or baiting or trolling. I apologize if I have. But the buck has to stop here. This cycle must end for the good of the group.

Do I dislike you as a person? NO. I dislike your attitude and your behaviors when you feel like you're not getting what you want. Only those two things. I think this environment is toxic for you. You would be better off in another RP group at this point. I will no longer game with you, and I ask that you do not TG me. l have washed my hands of this mess.

Swith
PL Player
Original OP
Current CoOP

Swith

[Swith]

PLAYERS:

Please never hesitate to contact staff with your concerns. We have always strove to find ways to accommodate your needs, within reason. We want you to thrive. We want to know what isn't working, what needs refreshing, what needs clipping. We use your input to craft stuff... so much of what you see in PL is from player suggestions.

And NEVER hesitate to vent. BUT, if you vent, keep a window upon in your heart so players can offer ways to solve the problem. You won't get into trouble. Torsi's attitude has worn out her welcome with some of the staff and a majority of the players, however, and that's why my post is so very stern. We can't change her attitude. We can only ask that she tone it down and do some introspection.

And finally, please stop with all the gossip. It's very unhealthy and fosters resentment. If Torsi approaches you, please politely and respectfully remind her that you wish to discuss your concerns directly with staff... openly or through TG... to find resolution.

Thanks.

[Tiltjuice]

^

I'm the tech support, but I always have time for people - my TG box has always been open. Don't be a stranger.

[Swith Witherward]

^

I'm the tech support, but I always have time for people - my TG box has always been open. Don't be a stranger.

You also excel at using humor to diffuse though situations.

Min is a voice of calm reason.

Cer is a bit of law.

I'm the nurturer.

[Highfort]

Likewise, I'm available for chat by TG or on the IRC. I usually hang out in #NSP. I'm not a co-op nor a mentor, but I do like to help where I can. Drop me a line if you ever need help RP-wise or just with life in-general. I'd be more than happy to make your acquaintance

[Torsiedelle]

Oh my god.

I'm sorry. Look, to be honest? I felt bad the moment I made that post.

Really, I can't say "don't shoot the messenger", and I know that. I have my own frustrations poured into my posts, yes, but I also thought that trying to show exactly how others felt would help out. It always has, maybe, sort of.

To be honest though, I never made the points about baggage, and I personally left the 40K bits way, way back.

And when I do think about all you do? Yeah, I feel like a dick. I mean, I complain, but I think about what everyone else must do each day, and then I hate myself even more because I realize only after the fact how big of a dick I am. I'm too scared of having already sturred the pot to apologize, because I don't want to bother you all anymore.

Should I just delete that post of mine? It was a stupid, poorly thought out plan. Fuck me.

And I know I'm not a great GM. I never fucking learn until I fuck stuff up, though, and it makes me feel like total shit to upset anyone. It makes me feel sick RL, because yeah, I'm an ass, and I act edgy and mean, and that's not an act, it's just who I am, but I still feel like garbage after I do it, even if I don't say so.

And upsetting You, Swith, or Cer, or anyone? You guys are the best, in my eyes. I don't know how I can defend any of my own criticism. I think you're great.

So I'm sorry. I know I fucked up. Please, can we not do this anymore? Give me the word, and I can redact it (minus the whole murder dinner idea...cause that was unrelated...)

I don't want things to turn out like with Dani or GT. God, I don't want that. I don't want to seem like I'm projecting anything into the IC either. I don't want to mess up PL. I just wanted to figure stuff out. It was really fucking stupid on my part.

I don't want to ruin any friendship, or any chances at PL, or anything like that. I love you all, even the ones I don't love. I just don't know how to say it well.

Please? Friends?

[Tiltjuice]

I'm tired of trying to keep things together. I don't have one-tenth the health issues Swith does or one-tenth the responsibilities Cer does and I'm still tired. You know why? I look at my mother, who got so stressed out by her mother that it triggered the onset of rheumatoid arthritis and left her in a wheelchair, barely mobile. I look at that and I swear to myself never to reach that stage. If something - or someone - gets too stressful, I walk away.

I give a lot of chances, but when those run out? And we're just not in the business of therapy. This isn't a psychological clinic. We're a group of friends with a shared hobby. And when the environment becomes too toxic for enjoyment of that hobby, perhaps it's time to go.

[Swith Witherward]

Oh my god.

I'm sorry. Look, to be honest? I felt bad the moment I made that post.

Really, I can't say "don't shoot the messenger", and I know that. I have my own frustrations poured into my posts, yes, but I also thought that trying to show exactly how others felt would help out. It always has, maybe, sort of.

To be honest though, I never made the points about baggage, and I personally left the 40K bits way, way back.

And when I do think about all you do? Yeah, I feel like a dick. I mean, I complain, but I think about what everyone else must do each day, and then I hate myself even more because I realize only after the fact how big of a dick I am. I'm too scared of having already sturred the pot to apologize, because I don't want to bother you all anymore.

Should I just delete that post of mine? It was a stupid, poorly thought out plan. Fuck me.

And I know I'm not a great GM. I never fucking learn until I fuck stuff up, though, and it makes me feel like total shit to upset anyone. It makes me feel sick RL, because yeah, I'm an ass, and I act edgy and mean, and that's not an act, it's just who I am, but I still feel like garbage after I do it, even if I don't say so.

And upsetting You, Swith, or Cer, or anyone? You guys are the best, in my eyes. I don't know how I can defend any of my own criticism. I think you're great.

So I'm sorry. I know I fucked up. Please, can we not do this anymore? Give me the word, and I can redact it (minus the whole murder dinner idea...cause that was unrelated...)

I don't want things to turn out like with Dani or GT. God, I don't want that. I don't want to seem like I'm projecting anything into the IC either. I don't want to mess up PL. I just wanted to figure stuff out. It was really fucking stupid on my part.

I don't want to ruin any friendship, or any chances at PL, or anything like that. I love you all, even the ones I don't love. I just don't know how to say it well.

Please? Friends?

Don't delete it. Let it be a reminder to you when you fall back on these patterns. I believe you have good in you, Torsi.

Tilt's right. We can't analyze what makes players tick. We can help define with makes characters kick, since that's part of char dev.

You have been acting like a dick. But now you've gotten some stern feedback on it. Torsi, it's in your power to change your approach. You can look for ways to bring light stuff in without resenting the heavier stuff. You don't have to call our passion "lame", and we won't insist you participate in it. We want so badly to give you an opportunity to do old stuff... like take a Gate and have the mother of all TF gun wars between friends. You had Katya come in light and Volker got all excited. Island time! You have good ideas.

But, if you feel it's too toxic for you here, or if you feel that you need to be toxic to deal with things, that's not healthy.