NationStates

Wallenburg wrote:Opposed unconditionally.

ShrewLlamaLand wrote:Again, there's no "list" of WA Elite members. You don't get a card, I think I've answered this many times.

Oh? But we do!

Word! Got mine right here!

Even if it somehow made it to vote, it wouldn't pass, so thanks for free publicity I guess. Also,

ShrewLlamaLand wrote:

Tinhampton wrote:Opposed, as mentioned above. Am I a member of the WA Elite?

The Stalker wrote:
Yea i'm curious too can we get a list of the WA elite made?

I don't really know how this is relevant to Repeal: Condemn The Black Hawks.

Again, there's no "list" of WA Elite members. You don't get a card, I think I've answered this many times.

I guess anyone opposed to the CCD is a WA Elite. Sign me up!

Outer Sparta wrote:

ShrewLlamaLand wrote:
I don't really know how this is relevant to Repeal: Condemn The Black Hawks.

Again, there's no "list" of WA Elite members. You don't get a card, I think I've answered this many times.

I guess anyone opposed to the CCD is a WA Elite. Sign me up!

Shoot if that's the case I'll gladly join the WA Elite hivemind! \

Opposed to this. TBH deserves both their condemnations. They're really good at what they do.

I think I have card #68532! What cards do y'all have?

Also, on a note, Shrew has tried desperately to get TBH un-condemned for a while, and it's not gonna start working now with these poor proposals!

Ppffft, y'all with the cards not using the Impact/TNR font format, smh.

There ya go ;p

Shrew, you are something of an enigma to me my good man. Usually after someone made so many SC proposal drafting threads one would expect the quality of their proposals to increase, your proposals appear to be heading in quite the opposite direction. If they could get any worse

Wymondham wrote:

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Shrew, you are something of an enigma to me my good man. Usually after someone made so many SC proposal drafting threads one would expect the quality of their proposals to increase, your proposals appear to be heading in quite the opposite direction. If they could get any worse

CCD used to have a reasonable proposal writer in South Reinkalistan before he left them. Now I’m no fan of his, but he did put the effort into his drafts, did a bit of research etc. Maybe Shrew should apply to SR for lessons; it might help him realise that snide is no substitute for quality.

Bhang Bhang Duc wrote:

Wymondham wrote:

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Shrew, you are something of an enigma to me my good man. Usually after someone made so many SC proposal drafting threads one would expect the quality of their proposals to increase, your proposals appear to be heading in quite the opposite direction. If they could get any worse

CCD used to have a reasonable proposal writer in South Reinkalistan before he left them. Now I’m no fan of his, but he did put the effort into his drafts, did a bit of research etc. Maybe Shrew should apply to SR for lessons; it might help him realise that snide is no substitute for quality.

lmao that's hilarious. Next time I'll be sure to include:

The Black Hawks ranks 19th for most nations

722nd for most valuable artwork

1,115th for most World Assembly endorsements,

Determining that these statistics, placing The Black Hawks in the top 2% of all regions, are worthy of nothing but admiration by the international community, and set an example for all states to follow;

This isn't meant to be a history lesson. I don't write history lessons (except about the Sec-Gen election, here you go: https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1341953).

Wymondham wrote:

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Shrew, you are something of an enigma to me my good man. Usually after someone made so many SC proposal drafting threads one would expect the quality of their proposals to increase, your proposals appear to be heading in quite the opposite direction. If they could get any worse

If by history you mean this "rigging" of the WA sec-gen election by everyone except CCD and its allies then I'm going to vomit lol. Stop complaining about not winning and take a graceful fall. There's a reason people didn't want Joco as WA sec-gen and I think it's been quite clear. Get off your butt and stop whining.

Also, trying to punish everyone who advanced to the final round of the election hasn't worked, and it's only backfired so far. I look forward to another attempt getting squashed

I'm just gonna go ahead and state my opposition to this proposal on general principle. Any proposal any member of CCD puts forward shouldn't pass.

Plus TBH has earned their condemnations. Something CCD isn't use to doing; earning things.

ShrewLlamaLand wrote:Observing that most of the region's few recent occupations have been quasi-raids, resulting in the targeted region eventually being handed back into the control of natives

This is the thesis of this resolution - Since my point in the other thread is just as valid for this one, I'll bring it up here too.

Aurum Raider wrote:TBH has raided hundreds of regions. Your core - and only - argument is something that anybody remotely versed in R/D can categorically refute.

For anybody to even consider this bill, you will first have to explain how Asia is not a raid, and I don't think you can give a convincing argument for that.

The Church of Satan wrote:I'm just gonna go ahead and state my opposition to this proposal on general principle. Any proposal any member of CCD puts forward shouldn't pass.

Plus TBH has earned their condemnations. Something CCD isn't use to doing; earning things.

Ah, there it is, the classic "against due to author".

Aurum Raider wrote:

ShrewLlamaLand wrote:Observing that most of the region's few recent occupations have been quasi-raids, resulting in the targeted region eventually being handed back into the control of natives

This is the thesis of this resolution - Since my point in the other thread is just as valid for this one, I'll bring it up here too.

Aurum Raider wrote:TBH has raided hundreds of regions. Your core - and only - argument is something that anybody remotely versed in R/D can categorically refute.

For anybody to even consider this bill, you will first have to explain how Asia is not a raid, and I don't think you can give a convincing argument for that.

Sure, we'll see when it gets to vote.

This is technically a raid, you put a bunch of nations into a region and took over the WA delegacy. This isn't a successful raid, because either you didn't even bother to try to successfully secure or refound the region, or the attempt has been prevented by "Liberate Asia" which you're apparently content to roll over and let past.

As I've said in another thread, if TBH were really, truly "the super evil raiding region" like the two condemns apparently suggest, you'd be trying everything to stop the liberation, quorum raiding if you couldn't stop it otherwise, and refounding the region just to prove a point to the rest of NationStates.

ShrewLlamaLand wrote:Sure, we'll see when it gets to vote.

I wouldn't hold your breath, because I doubt the results will be very surprising.

ShrewLlamaLand wrote:This is technically a raid, you put a bunch of nations into a region and took over the WA delegacy.

Yes, you have correctly spelled out exactly what a raid is.

ShrewLlamaLand wrote:This isn't a successful raid, because either you didn't even bother to try to successfully secure or refound the region

ShrewLlamaLand wrote:refounding the region just to prove a point to the rest of NationStates.

Region destruction is an end-game of raiding. The region is secure, defenders cannot overcome the Pile™
The fact of the matter is that going for a refound is extremely inefficient influence-wise, and TBH would quickly run out of things to raid if every region was refounded and passworded.

And what would refounding it prove that capturing it, and successfully keeping defenders from liberating it doesn't already prove?

ShrewLlamaLand wrote:or the attempt has been prevented by "Liberate Asia" which you're apparently content to roll over and let past.
you'd be trying everything to stop the liberation, quorum raiding if you couldn't stop it otherwise

Putting aside the fact that quorum raiding is only worth it when you plan on sticking around, that argument only works if you are going to argue that regional destruction is what makes a raid a raid. Which is not something I intend on arguing.

Sitting around in a region for a month for the chance of making another boring, dead, and uninteresting password region is not worth the time it takes to 'make a point.'

Aurum Raider wrote:

ShrewLlamaLand wrote:This isn't a successful raid, because either you didn't even bother to try to successfully secure or refound the region

ShrewLlamaLand wrote:refounding the region just to prove a point to the rest of NationStates.

Region destruction is an end-game of raiding. The region is secure, defenders cannot overcome the Pile™
The fact of the matter is that going for a refound is extremely inefficient influence-wise, and TBH would quickly run out of things to raid if every region was refounded and passworded.

And what would refounding it prove that capturing it, and successfully keeping defenders from liberating it doesn't already prove?

That's objectively false. If you refound, natives would make a new region, and eventually there's a good chance that it would eventually be raidable too.

How do you keep defenders from liberating it if you let them pass their proposal and then hand it back to them?

Aurum Raider wrote:

ShrewLlamaLand wrote:or the attempt has been prevented by "Liberate Asia" which you're apparently content to roll over and let past.
you'd be trying everything to stop the liberation, quorum raiding if you couldn't stop it otherwise

Putting aside the fact that quorum raiding is only worth it when you plan on sticking around, that argument only works if you are going to argue that regional destruction is what makes a raid a raid. Which is not something I intend on arguing.

Sitting around in a region for a month for the chance of making another boring, dead, and uninteresting password region is not worth the time it takes to 'make a point.'

I don't know what the raider vs defender, TBH vs XKI dynamic is like internally, but quorum raiding is about making a point. "We can take this region and there's nothing you can do to stop us".

Regional destruction usually is what makes a raid. What exactly is the point of occupying Asia if TBH is apparently going to roll over and pass the region back to natives?

Edit: It occurred to me that the majority of the above arguments aren't exactly pertinent to the resolution - apologies.

ShrewLlamaLand wrote:Regional destruction usually is what makes a raid. What exactly is the point of occupying Asia if TBH is apparently going to roll over and pass the region back to natives?

It's not, and hasn't been for at minimum the last 6 years I've been playing. You do not decide what makes a raid. If anything, defenders do, and they seem to think it's a raid.

Kanglia wrote:

Outer Sparta wrote:I guess anyone opposed to the CCD is a WA Elite. Sign me up!

Shoot if that's the case I'll gladly join the WA Elite hivemind! \

Opposed to this. TBH deserves both their condemnations. They're really good at what they do.

One of the most notorious raider regions that's for sure. And they weren't busted in the DEN/Cimmeria scandal since they didn't use illegal scripts to facilitate such raids.

Outer Sparta wrote:

Kanglia wrote:
Shoot if that's the case I'll gladly join the WA Elite hivemind! \

Opposed to this. TBH deserves both their condemnations. They're really good at what they do.

One of the most notorious raider regions that's for sure. And they weren't busted in the DEN/Cimmeria scandal since they didn't use illegal scripts to facilitate such raids.

Wellll, a number of people implicated in the Predator bannings were members of TBH, either during the time of the bans or the time of their usage of Predator. Notably, Kleomentia, who was at the time a member of the Council of Hawks, was a prolific enough user to be hit with a 9-month WA ban.
What can be said about TBH in regards to Predator is the Council's handling of it; instituting a script policy and making whatever changes were necessary to prevent another incident from affecting the organisation.

Devi wrote:

Outer Sparta wrote:One of the most notorious raider regions that's for sure. And they weren't busted in the DEN/Cimmeria scandal since they didn't use illegal scripts to facilitate such raids.

Wellll, a number of people implicated in the Predator bannings were members of TBH, either during the time of the bans or the time of their usage of Predator. Notably, Kleomentia, who was at the time a member of the Council of Hawks, was a prolific enough user to be hit with a 9-month WA ban.
What can be said about TBH in regards to Predator is the Council's handling of it; instituting a script policy and making whatever changes were necessary to prevent another incident from affecting the organisation.

It was certainly a while ago with the script scandal in regards to raids. That being said, neither of their condemnations should be repealed.