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[Draft] Repeal: Liberate Confederation of Corrupt Dictators

A chamber dedicated to the dissemination of inter-regional peace and goodwill, via force if necessary.

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The Sherpa Empire
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Posts: 826
Founded: Jan 15, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby The Sherpa Empire » Mon Feb 04, 2019 1:03 pm

How many SC proposals about CCD do we really need?
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Blood Wine
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Founded: Jan 12, 2014
Democratic Socialists

Postby Blood Wine » Mon Feb 04, 2019 1:21 pm

Far too many, one should have been enough
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Heraswed
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Founded: Aug 11, 2018
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Heraswed » Mon Feb 04, 2019 1:53 pm

Lord Dominator wrote:This is not the GA, this is the SC. Very separate bodies.

That was the GA specifying the 'Rights and Duties of WA states'
The WA is an overarching body, therefore the rights, even if set out within a GA resolution still apply throughout the organisation.
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Heraswed
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Founded: Aug 11, 2018
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Heraswed » Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:08 pm

Bedetopia wrote:
Heraswed wrote:
Previously, the laws governing the Confederation restricted rulers from aligning with leftist ideology. However, more recently Imperial Law was relaxed and only encourages right-wing ideologies. It's really just a pro-authoritarian haven now.

As for communist/fascist cohabitation, they don't need to hate each other, and often nationalist movements have evolved into communist groups so the two are closer than you'd think. Economic policy is also similar, however Mussolini stated that Fascist economic policy should be flexible and not plagued by ideological commitments which opposes Communist policy.


Interesting. Although I think that while it makes sense in theory, in practice they are divided.

Maybe you should alter your third clause to point out it's any kind of authoritarianism, because when people see centrism or conservatism they're more likely to think democracy or republic.


To be honest, the point was that the same descriptor applies to both dictatorial/authoritarian governments and democratic governments, I was trying to maybe give them a middle ground.
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Lord Dominator
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Founded: Dec 22, 2016
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Lord Dominator » Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:20 pm

Heraswed wrote:
Lord Dominator wrote:This is not the GA, this is the SC. Very separate bodies.

That was the GA specifying the 'Rights and Duties of WA states'
The WA is an overarching body, therefore the rights, even if set out within a GA resolution still apply throughout the organisation.

False. The GA is largely an IC roleplay body, while the SC is largely an OOC Gameplay affiliated body. The only thing they really share is a voting mechanism.
Osiris Vizier of WA AffairsDee Vytherov-SkollvaldrGameplay Ambassador of ForestLieutenant in The Black HawksRecruitment and Outreach Director of Lazarus

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Heraswed
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Founded: Aug 11, 2018
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Heraswed » Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:25 pm

Lord Dominator wrote:
Heraswed wrote:That was the GA specifying the 'Rights and Duties of WA states'
The WA is an overarching body, therefore the rights, even if set out within a GA resolution still apply throughout the organisation.

False. The GA is largely an IC roleplay body, while the SC is largely an OOC Gameplay affiliated body. The only thing they really share is a voting mechanism.

I'm not sure I understand, you're telling me that the SC is not in character? The point is that they're both organs under the World Assembly, and you're dealing with WA nations, therefore their rights apply.
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Lord Dominator
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Founded: Dec 22, 2016
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Lord Dominator » Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:26 pm

Heraswed wrote:
Lord Dominator wrote:False. The GA is largely an IC roleplay body, while the SC is largely an OOC Gameplay affiliated body. The only thing they really share is a voting mechanism.

I'm not sure I understand, you're telling me that the SC is not in character? The point is that they're both organs under the World Assembly, and you're dealing with WA nations, therefore their rights apply.

I'm telling you that two are very separate bodies only related from sharing the name WA and a voting mechanism. In terms of everything else they are very very different.
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Heraswed
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Founded: Aug 11, 2018
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Heraswed » Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:03 pm

Lord Dominator wrote:
Heraswed wrote:The 'further noting' clause acknowledges the presence of fascism within the confederation. What I was arguing was that this doesn't mean that the confederation is fascist itself.

I wasn't saying you were, I was addressing that claims of them being fascist being attempted to be re-directed is a moot thing when you yourself write that fascism is an ideology that should be protected. Most other people have argued that it shouldn't and that CCD is and/or harbours such. Ergo, a valid thread topic.

When did I say that fascism should be protected? Let me be clear, I am opposing SC#263 because I feel that it, as a resolution, is an unjustified and poor attempt to condemn a region you don't agree with for no other reason than their ideology. If you want to condemn it, condemn it, doing otherwise is pointless and cowardly.
Lord Dominator wrote:

That's all well and good, but the only thing that will change the fact that the SC has legislated that it can't use ideology as the sole reasoning for a resolution is it legislating the opposite.

Sure it can, we don't have rules against resolutions contradicting each other here.


That makes no sense whatsoever, presently, neither would have any mechanical effect. And in order for the liberation to be at all useful, Jocospor would have to leave the site, whilst passing to delegacy to another nation and the Confederation would have to greatly shrink. These alone are unlikely to take place. So, you can either have a noticeable, clear and obvious sign that the region in question is disapproved of by the World at large, or you can have a badge which might as well read 'non-threatening' with a mechanical effect that has an extremely low probability of ever being useful.

False, it already has and will have greater mechanical effect once Jocospor is gone, namely removing the ability of the delegate to password the region. After that, well we Gameplayers will go to work and I can assure you that it doesn't matter how big it is.

Even so, I've already explained the unlikeliness of that circumstance, and as a poll in the CCD found, in the case of the fall of the Confederation, most would simply wait for the region to be re-founded under another Supreme Council member.
Lord Dominator wrote:Let me rephrase that, it meets the definition of a liberation resolution but has no purpose, as long as the liberation in not affecting the confederation it is purposeless and therefore, should not exist, or even have been passed.

It is not purposeless, just as any Liberation on a foundered region is not purposeless.
And why won't it pass?

Because the major delegates won't vote For it (in any significant capacity)?

And why won't they vote for it, is it because you're all too sanctimonious, or because the mere existence of the CCD is offensive to you?
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Lord Dominator
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Founded: Dec 22, 2016
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Lord Dominator » Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:47 pm

Heraswed wrote:
Lord Dominator wrote:I wasn't saying you were, I was addressing that claims of them being fascist being attempted to be re-directed is a moot thing when you yourself write that fascism is an ideology that should be protected. Most other people have argued that it shouldn't and that CCD is and/or harbours such. Ergo, a valid thread topic.

When did I say that fascism should be protected? Let me be clear, I am opposing SC#263 because I feel that it, as a resolution, is an unjustified and poor attempt to condemn a region you don't agree with for no other reason than their ideology. If you want to condemn it, condemn it, doing otherwise is pointless and cowardly.

Ah, the protection thing is actually my bad, misread a bit of that sentence.
Lord Dominator wrote:
Sure it can, we don't have rules against resolutions contradicting each other here.

False, it already has and will have greater mechanical effect once Jocospor is gone, namely removing the ability of the delegate to password the region. After that, well we Gameplayers will go to work and I can assure you that it doesn't matter how big it is.

Even so, I've already explained the unlikeliness of that circumstance, and as a poll in the CCD found, in the case of the fall of the Confederation, most would simply wait for the region to be re-founded under another Supreme Council member.

That's nice
Lord Dominator wrote:Let me rephrase that, it meets the definition of a liberation resolution but has no purpose, as long as the liberation in not affecting the confederation it is purposeless and therefore, should not exist, or even have been passed.

It is not purposeless, just as any Liberation on a foundered region is not purposeless.
And why won't it pass?

Because the major delegates won't vote For it (in any significant capacity)?

And why won't they vote for it, is it because you're all too sanctimonious, or because the mere existence of the CCD is offensive to you?[/quote][/quote]
Because they voted For the original, and you haven't presented any new evidence or arguments to justify removing it?
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Lord Dominator
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Founded: Dec 22, 2016
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Lord Dominator » Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:47 pm

I do also see you submitted this, that's nice
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Yokiria
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Posts: 237
Founded: Jan 24, 2014
Democratic Socialists

Postby Yokiria » Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:18 pm

Heraswed, you do not seem to comprehend the reasons why the Liberation passed in the first place. The CoCD proposed a Commendation of its own region, and an operating clause in that Commendation noted the region's strong fascism as something it should be commended for. The Security Council disagreed so sharply, that the Liberation proposal came and passed shortly after.

They told the world they were fascists and asked for a badge. We sent them home with another one, one they didn't want.

Now that you surely have the proper context, maybe now you can engage with us better.

(Additionally, the General Assembly and Security Council are separate entities. Resolutions in the Security Council are not beholden to the language of previous SC resolutions.)
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Doing it Rightland
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Posts: 134
Founded: Dec 20, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Doing it Rightland » Mon Feb 04, 2019 7:10 pm

Yokiria wrote:They told the world they were fascists and asked for a badge. We sent them home with another one, one they didn't want.

You are aware that the whole reason the target is a liberation and not a condemnation was to avoid giving the CCD a badge, right? Condemnations are regularly seen as badges too (example: TBH). The SC wanted to condemn the CCD but wanted to deny them the prestige of having a condemnation. They settled on a liberation which literally did nothing, considering there's no password and the founder is an exec (and probably not going anywhere anytime soon).
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Jocospor
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Founded: Nov 24, 2015
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Jocospor » Mon Feb 04, 2019 7:32 pm

Blood Wine wrote:
ShrewLlamaLand wrote:Yes, just like you can't hide behind "IC" when role-playing an anarchist, or a communist, or an evil wizard, right?


None of these groups killed over 10 million people

OOC: Mao Zedong was responsible for the death of perhaps up to 45 million people, Stalin perhaps 20. Should I start on South America? At least now we can all immediately discount your comments; you've no idea what you're talking about.
HAIL THE CONFEDERATION!
CONFEDERATION OF CORRUPT DICTATORS | OFFICE OF THE VICEROY | DELEGATE'S OFFICE
JOCOSPOR | FOREIGN AFFAIRS OFFICE


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Yokiria
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Founded: Jan 24, 2014
Democratic Socialists

Postby Yokiria » Mon Feb 04, 2019 7:38 pm

Doing it Rightland wrote:
Yokiria wrote:They told the world they were fascists and asked for a badge. We sent them home with another one, one they didn't want.

You are aware that the whole reason the target is a liberation and not a condemnation was to avoid giving the CCD a badge, right?


I believe you mistook my wordplay for ignorance.

Jocospor wrote:At least now we can all immediately discount your comments; you've no idea what you're talking about.


Pot, kettle.
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and the shoreline disappears,
I will scream to the sky...
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Aclion
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Founded: Apr 12, 2016
Anarchy

Postby Aclion » Mon Feb 04, 2019 8:04 pm

Blood Wine wrote:
ShrewLlamaLand wrote:Yes, just like you can't hide behind "IC" when role-playing an anarchist, or a communist, or an evil wizard, right?


None of these groups killed over 10 million people

*distant laughter*
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Doing it Rightland
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Founded: Dec 20, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Doing it Rightland » Mon Feb 04, 2019 8:13 pm

Yokiria wrote:I believe you mistook my wordplay for ignorance.

I mean, I sorta see the wordplay. Nevertheless, it's nice to hear that it's not ignorance, just the fact that I can't analyze the English language.
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Greater vakolicci haven
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Founded: May 09, 2014
Anarchy

Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:37 pm

Yokiria wrote:
Doing it Rightland wrote:You are aware that the whole reason the target is a liberation and not a condemnation was to avoid giving the CCD a badge, right?


I believe you mistook my wordplay for ignorance.

Jocospor wrote:At least now we can all immediately discount your comments; you've no idea what you're talking about.


Pot, kettle.

I think on the subject of CCD and whether or not they are fascists, he probably knows more than either of us. And Blood Wine's comment was nonsensical.

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Caracasus
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Founded: Apr 23, 2015
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Caracasus » Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:32 am

As always, death count olympics remains a pretty shite way to legitimize fascism.

Liberalism doesn't require the slaughter of millions of natives, the rape of the congo or operation Condor, any more than communism requires holodomor, subjugation of neighbouring states or purges. The fact that atrocities were committed in the names of other ideologies misses the point. Nazism absolutely requires the subjgation of what it sees as lesser peoples and races, and will always result in disenfrancisement and genocide.

That's what seperates fascism from other ideologies. When they do a mass murder it's the ideology working pretty much as intended, not an abberation.
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Heraswed
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Founded: Aug 11, 2018
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Heraswed » Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:48 am

Lord Dominator wrote:I do also see you submitted this, that's nice


Sorry, that was a different nation, Hallor.
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Honeydewistania
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Founded: Jun 09, 2017
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Honeydewistania » Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:56 am

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Yokiria wrote:
I believe you mistook my wordplay for ignorance.



Pot, kettle.

I think on the subject of CCD and whether or not they are fascists, he probably knows more than either of us. And Blood Wine's comment was nonsensical.

The fact that the CCD is proudly supporting a vassal state called the United Fascist Federation, as well as having diplomatic relations with a GAMEPLAYER nazi region, also trying to commend themselves for being fascist really says a lot. Jocospor may not be a fascist, he might be a nice guy, albeit edgy, but he is supporting abhorrent ideologies, and that fact is not going to change if ShrewLlamaLand carries on allowing fascism
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Yokiria
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Founded: Jan 24, 2014
Democratic Socialists

Postby Yokiria » Tue Feb 05, 2019 4:34 am

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:I think on the subject of CCD and whether or not they are fascists, he probably knows more than either of us.

Anything we could gain from Jocospor's greater knowledge about the subject is nullified by the fact he has no credibility what-so-ever.
~ As the waves crash high,
Former Guardian of Osiris

and the shoreline disappears,
I will scream to the sky...
This nation's views do not necessarily reflect the views of the player.

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Jocospor
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 456
Founded: Nov 24, 2015
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Jocospor » Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:13 am

Yokiria wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:I think on the subject of CCD and whether or not they are fascists, he probably knows more than either of us.

Anything we could gain from Jocospor's greater knowledge about the subject is nullified by the fact he has no credibility what-so-ever.

OOC: No credibility? Golly, and I didn't even claim that communism never killed more than ten million. How 'bout that?! Look, if you're so curious, send a puppet nation to the Confederation and see for yourself. I'm sure what you find will cause you extreme embarrassment. (Actually...that might be an...interesting initiative...welcome to the "Jocospor has an Idea!" show...)

Oh, and @Caracasus - confirming you saw my earlier post.

Jocospor wrote:OOC: I just saw this thread now and I feel like your comment is the only one worth responding to as of now. My government and I are still discussing the advice that was offered. Rome wasn't built in a day, and this decision isn't an easy one for us to make, though it might be for you. We are still conducting our own investigations into the accusations aforementioned concerning select regions and are yet unable to ascertain legitimacy on a variety of circumstances. As far as I am aware, Shrewllamaland, though a valued, integral part of our operation, is not actually the leader of the Confederation, as been suggested several times. If he wishes to challenge me for the position he's more than welcome to but, since it would be a futile act, I'm sure he won't (much to your disappointment, I can see).
HAIL THE CONFEDERATION!
CONFEDERATION OF CORRUPT DICTATORS | OFFICE OF THE VICEROY | DELEGATE'S OFFICE
JOCOSPOR | FOREIGN AFFAIRS OFFICE


"Destroy democracy. End degeneracy. Love your Emperor. Thou shalt know no fear."
- Farland Macmillan, Grand High Direktor of the Empire, addressing the 3rd Imperial Cabinet

(All posts IC unless marked otherwise)

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Blood Wine
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1591
Founded: Jan 12, 2014
Democratic Socialists

Postby Blood Wine » Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:41 am

Jocospor wrote:
Blood Wine wrote:
None of these groups killed over 10 million people

OOC: Mao Zedong was responsible for the death of perhaps up to 45 million people, Stalin perhaps 20. Should I start on South America? At least now we can all immediately discount your comments; you've no idea what you're talking about.


>anarchists
>communists
>evil wizard

not:
Stalinist
chinese communists

but sure, strawman me to justify roleplaying as nazi's
Formerly known as Port Blood
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Elke and Elba wrote:Well Mall, you want Haven? I'd want your Joint Systems Alliance badge, then.
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Tim-Opolis wrote:The Salt Mines will be fueled for months by the tears of silly fascists.

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Yokiria
Envoy
 
Posts: 237
Founded: Jan 24, 2014
Democratic Socialists

Postby Yokiria » Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:42 am

Jocospor wrote:OOC: No credibility? Golly, and I didn't even claim that communism never killed more than ten million. How 'bout that?!

Not only is that irrelevant, as I did not make that claim either, but it is also a deflection without a denial.

Jocospor wrote:Look, if you're so curious, send a puppet nation to the Confederation and see for yourself.

No. I am not a masochist.
~ As the waves crash high,
Former Guardian of Osiris

and the shoreline disappears,
I will scream to the sky...
This nation's views do not necessarily reflect the views of the player.

"Hey, people live here!".~

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Syberis
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 405
Founded: Jan 21, 2016
Father Knows Best State

Postby Syberis » Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:21 am

I see CCD has reached the point where they're now so not-Nazi they're using all the usual "Why are Nazis bad" talking points that Nazis use.
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