[Submitted] Liberate Haven

[Oseato]

I could show that every nation in Haven had their WA nation disappear during the coup and the dissenters here would claim that I can't know where their WA nation actually went. They've already claimed as much.

Show us. You're hiding behind smoke and mirrors baby, and you're not a magician good enough to cover that.

He's not going to. He claims its not the point of his argument although he just admitted he picked Haven because of TSP (Even though many Havenites have left the site or weren't involved).

[The Batorys]

No, because writing stories is not actually something you sign up for when you create a nation. However, your nation is participating in gameplay from the moment it spawns in a feeder. The two aren't comparable.

But not necessarily participating in R/D, which isn't actually the only part of gameplay that exists. It's entirely possible to answer issues every day, write Factbooks, post all over RMBs and move regions every three seconds without ever raiding or defending. I've never been involved in any aspect of the R/D 'game' beyond sometimes voting on Liberations when a TG looked convincing enough. I don't like R/D, and I'm glad I've never been forced into it. I was content with the consensus among raiders, the "if you don't like it, password" philosophy that was obnoxious but kinda valid. What's the suggestion now? "If you don't like it, tough"? Can we not keep the two games separate?

Yeah, basically.

Raiding happens, fine. But we've had a way to opt out of that stuff if we don't want to be involved. Hell, even having to opt-out rather than opt-in is kinda generous to raiders, if you ask me.

But now apparently we're supposed to waste our time playing a side of the game we don't want to play instead of playing the side of the game that we do like? What the fuck bullshit is that?

[Delmonte]

It's a shame you've all been lied to over the years, being told you don't have to participate in gameplay, because it's functionally inaccurate. Can't help that, Maltropia.

I understand I don't have to target your group of players, Miehm. That's what makes it fun.

Nobody cares. Really. When Miehm and the others realise that it takes a minimum of effort on our part just to stop you fucking us over for the hell of it, they'll realise it was silly getting hot about it. In the end, you can do only what we let you.

I really, really, really want to emphasize this. Minimal effort from the role playing community, we're talking a minute a week tops, would make them leave us alone and move on to greener pastures.


Also, at the Batorys: I second that motion.

[Ambroscus Koth]

It's a shame you've all been lied to over the years, being told you don't have to participate in gameplay, because it's functionally inaccurate. Can't help that, Maltropia.

I understand I don't have to target your group of players, Miehm. That's what makes it fun.

Nobody cares. Really. When Miehm and the others realise that it takes a minimum of effort on our part just to stop you fucking us over for the hell of it, they'll realise it was silly getting hot about it. In the end, you can do only what we let you.

Damn, finally someone with some common sense. I sincerely hope you can help your fellows realize this.

[Mini Miehm]

It's a shame you've all been lied to over the years, being told you don't have to participate in gameplay, because it's functionally inaccurate. Can't help that, Maltropia.

I understand I don't have to target your group of players, Miehm. That's what makes it fun.

Nobody cares. Really. When Miehm and the others realise that it takes a minimum of effort on our part just to stop you fucking us over for the hell of it, they'll realise it was silly getting hot about it. In the end, you can do only what we let you.

I could show that every nation in Haven had their WA nation disappear during the coup and the dissenters here would claim that I can't know where their WA nation actually went. They've already claimed as much.

Show us. You're hiding behind smoke and mirrors baby, and you're not a magician good enough to cover that.

Let's make it take no effort, thanks. The amount of bullshit I want to have to deal with concerning raiding and defending is literally zero. I don't even want to talk about it, and yet here I am, forced to deal with this asshattery, because a mod took it on himself to troll an entire segment of players. Seriously. This is the stuff I have to deal with coming from MODS? The GAME MODS ARE TROLLING US? What the hell is this nonsense? Why has this even become possible? Just...what the actual fuck people?

[Nierr]

I don't care about his intentions as you ascribe them to him. It's crap, and I'll say it's crap until my fingers fall off.

It totally does. It's about the ability of raiders to harass roleplayers at will.

Maybe we should gut the game mechanics then, so we can be left the fuck alone.

You know what?

Yes.

Fuck it.

If we have to destroy half the game to be left the goddamn fuck alone, then yeah, at this point, I'd support that.

We have asked nicely. Repeatedly. We've pleaded. All we want is to be left to RP in peace. Is that so fucking much to ask? We've been assured that having founders would make it so we could opt out of R/D, and that in their absence, passwords would do it.


But apparently that's now to be disregarded, so that people can come in and have their fun at our expense in a way we don't want to participate in.


So fuck it.

And it's opinions like this that do not help. You know who holds the power in these kinds of things? The delegates of the GCRs. They have the most WA endoes and tend to be the ones who sway votes.

You know who won't like RPers advocating that a part of their game gets destroyed? The delegates of the GCRs.

Your opinion is borne out of anger, and I sympathise as an RPer first and as a gameplayer second, but it's not helping Haven, or roleplayers in general.

[Mallorea and Riva]

I could show that every nation in Haven had their WA nation disappear during the coup and the dissenters here would claim that I can't know where their WA nation actually went. They've already claimed as much.

Show us. You're hiding behind smoke and mirrors baby, and you're not a magician good enough to cover that.

That was a hypothetical. I'm saying that if I gave you guys exactly what you're asking for, you would still not be satisfied. Because many of the significant posters here know that I'm telling the truth, and can't let Haven be opened up.

[Roania]

Show us. You're hiding behind smoke and mirrors baby, and you're not a magician good enough to cover that.

That was a hypothetical. I'm saying that if I gave you guys exactly what you're asking for, you would still not be satisfied. Because many of the significant posters here know that I'm telling the truth, and can't let Haven be opened up.

Ah, now I get it. It's all about 'them'. Well, why don't you name names and shame them, Mall? Come on.

[Tim-Opolis]

My favorite part of this thread are all the people who deployed WA's to the TSP Coup claiming their innocence. This isn't an RP where you can just edit out your post and it never happened, kiddos. Gameplay has history records

Ah the smug superiority of R/Ders. Never change guys!

We won't

[Delmonte]

Nobody cares. Really. When Miehm and the others realise that it takes a minimum of effort on our part just to stop you fucking us over for the hell of it, they'll realise it was silly getting hot about it. In the end, you can do only what we let you.

Damn, finally someone with some common sense. I sincerely hope you can help your fellows realize this.

The apathy of role players regarding R/D is pretty debilitating. They'll spend hours arguing about it on threads, but won't dedicate even a minute to moving a WA puppet somewhere and clicking a button. I've seen raids, I know what kind of forces raiders are capable of mustering for the actual raids. And I can tell you that if even one percent of ACTIVE role players spent one minute a week moving puppets around and not even paying any attention to the updates, role playing regions being raided would be a thing of the past.

At the same time, I'm totally willing to fight against the existence of a game that infringes on my game.

[Reploid Productions]

Mallorea and Riva: What is Moderation's stance on this? Last I checked the three games were considered independent, equal, and separate. But maybe I'm wrong.

Moderation's stance has not changed on this since the last time this sort of thing happened.

Mallorea and Riva has not utilized moderator tools in any way, shape, or form in regards to gameplay related activities, thus drafting (or even eventually submitting and campaigning for) a proposal like this is in no way, shape, or form abuse of moderator power. Stretching the truth, manipulating facts, or even outright lying in the context of pushing a WA proposal is not trolling, and is not against the rules. It's politics, which is a large part of the point of a political webgame. The Liberation proposal as drafted is not trolling. Submitting it is not trolling. Successfully campaigning and getting one to pass to enable a raid is not trolling.

Now that we've got that out of the way, how about everybody step back, go grab some coffee, take a few deep breaths, and get back to arguing about the proposal being drafted and its claims, rather than the ongoing derail about whether or not moderation action should be taken and the whole thing about whether or not raiding should be allowed? If you have specific instances of someone in here breaking the rules, take it to Moderation. If you have specific concerns or suggestions regarding Liberation proposals, changes to gameplay, and so on, take it to Technical.

Thank you, now back to your regularly scheduled proposal debate. Hopefully this will be the last time moderation needs to comment on this.


~Evil Forum Empress Rep Prod the Ninja Admin
~She who wields the Banhammer; master of the mighty moderation no-dachi Kiritateru Teikoku

[Vetok]

Show us. You're hiding behind smoke and mirrors baby, and you're not a magician good enough to cover that.

That was a hypothetical. I'm saying that if I gave you guys exactly what you're asking for, you would still not be satisfied. Because many of the significant posters here know that I'm telling the truth, and can't let Haven be opened up.

I think the smoke machine is starting to catch fire. Overuse much? Like Roania says, NAME THEM. Go on, or prove by omission you have no credence whatsoever. I won't mind either way. Either you admit there's no proof or people stop taking you so seriously, win-win.

[Venico]

"Complete isolation is not possible, though, since all regions have their feet in Gameplay (even if their heads are elsewhere). Regions are defined and governed by Gameplay rules. All this is very low-level and not at all central to why RP regions exist, of course, but you enter Gameplay the second you create a nation." - [violet]

Emphasis mine.

[Minnysota]

That was a hypothetical. I'm saying that if I gave you guys exactly what you're asking for, you would still not be satisfied. Because many of the significant posters here know that I'm telling the truth, and can't let Haven be opened up.

So you can't provide any proof to the already baseless argument you've presented to justify this? Cool.

[Oseato]

Can we liberate a single nation from their password for their actions in the TSP coup or are we just allowed to focus on regions that never were formally in the R/D game?

[Rephesus]

Show us. You're hiding behind smoke and mirrors baby, and you're not a magician good enough to cover that.

That was a hypothetical. I'm saying that if I gave you guys exactly what you're asking for, you would still not be satisfied. Because many of the significant posters here know that I'm telling the truth, and can't let Haven be opened up.

No, most of the significant posters are tired if bullshit proposals calling to open up RPing regions full of people who want no part in the R&D game. Months ago when there was a discussion about an Opt-Out for raiding we were told that that is what the Password function is for, and now we have a member of the Moderation team blatantly undermining that as a slap in the face to the RPing community all on some whim over an event that happens months ago to feed a personal vendetta.

[Kylarnatia]

Show us. You're hiding behind smoke and mirrors baby, and you're not a magician good enough to cover that.

That was a hypothetical. I'm saying that if I gave you guys exactly what you're asking for, you would still not be satisfied. Because many of the significant posters here know that I'm telling the truth, and can't let Haven be opened up.

Our whole uproar about this whole thing is that you're failing to convince us that this is legitimate. If you do have the evidence, then by all means show it and settle this right now.

[Maltropia]

That was a hypothetical. I'm saying that if I gave you guys exactly what you're asking for, you would still not be satisfied. Because many of the significant posters here know that I'm telling the truth, and can't let Haven be opened up.

Because Haven is where we secretly stash illicit magazines and smuggled cigarettes.

No wait, no. That's Sondria. Why exactly are you acting like Haven is an important chain in a grand RPer plot that must be broken?

[The Batorys]

...Are you for real?

I mean, I'm for serious, are you for real?

You're only going on the possibility that he might have made an alternate WA nation to raid TSP during that time. You have no actual physical evidence to prove that. For all you know, he may have decided to drop from the WA because he was bored of receiving telegrams for helping the liberation effort. I know I received a few.

Furthermore, you're going to terrorise (oh, I'm sorry, "liberate") an entire region, for the potential actions of one player?

Nope, I'm doing it to open it up to active raiding. Again TSP is not the justification. And I haven't bothered checking the others because we all know that Haven was involved. Claims to the contrary are falling apart every time evidence comes forward.

Let's look at Haven. Hmm, seems Cravan is in it...after refounding his nation seven hours ago. So he was in there after you posted this, and therefore one of the main reasons you have for this only came back to NS and to Haven hours after this all started. That's one pile of bullshit sent for manure, let's see some other names.

Cravan has been there for years prior to his CTE. Check the history. I don't need to lie about this, and the worst part is that the Roleplayers know that I'm telling the truth. Huge numbers of them were involved.

"Huge numbers" to you is a tiny fraction to us.

The RP community isn't monolithic. I didn't even know the details of it until this very thread. Nobody I RP with on a regular basis was involved, as basically all of my circle of RPers view the R/D thing as something not to get involved in. I don't know what goes on in Gholgoth and Sondria, I'm Forgotten Lands.

Lots of members of the RP community hate each other. Hell, lots of groups in the RP community hate each other. I count at least three or four people just active on this thread with significant bad blood between them, who are all now pissed at you.

So congratulations. Your cute little attempt to antagonize the RP community worked.

[Minnysota]

"Complete isolation is not possible, though, since all regions have their feet in Gameplay (even if their heads are elsewhere). Regions are defined and governed by Gameplay rules. All this is very low-level and not at all central to why RP regions exist, of course, but you enter Gameplay the second you create a nation." - [violet]

Emphasis mine.

R/D isn't an inherent part of Gameplay. It's a manufactured hobby that people have since applied exclusively to Gameplay. Saying that all players on this board must adhere to what Gameplay wants to do is absurd and entirely ignorant.

[Delmonte]

"Complete isolation is not possible, though, since all regions have their feet in Gameplay (even if their heads are elsewhere). Regions are defined and governed by Gameplay rules. All this is very low-level and not at all central to why RP regions exist, of course, but you enter Gameplay the second you create a nation." - [violet]

Emphasis mine.

Weren't you saying that RPers and Raiders should connect and work together or something only months ago?

[Mallorea and Riva]

That was a hypothetical. I'm saying that if I gave you guys exactly what you're asking for, you would still not be satisfied. Because many of the significant posters here know that I'm telling the truth, and can't let Haven be opened up.

Ah, now I get it. It's all about 'them'. Well, why don't you name names and shame them, Mall? Come on.

Did you notice how none of the significant RP'ers are denying their involvement?

Besides, their involvement is not relevant. The issues regarding Haven and TSP are crystal clear to outsiders looking in. Haven was one of the regions that provided support. RP'ers are flocking to defend it, just like they flocked to TSP to help Milograd. Nierr once correctly pointed out that it was stupid of them to do so since it would result in it being used as a potential argument for attacking them. Here it is a minor point.

That was a hypothetical. I'm saying that if I gave you guys exactly what you're asking for, you would still not be satisfied. Because many of the significant posters here know that I'm telling the truth, and can't let Haven be opened up.

So you can't provide any proof to the already baseless argument you've presented to justify this? Cool.

Are you honestly saying that roleplayers did not support Milograd's coup?

[Mini Miehm]

You know what?

Yes.

Fuck it.

If we have to destroy half the game to be left the goddamn fuck alone, then yeah, at this point, I'd support that.

We have asked nicely. Repeatedly. We've pleaded. All we want is to be left to RP in peace. Is that so fucking much to ask? We've been assured that having founders would make it so we could opt out of R/D, and that in their absence, passwords would do it.


But apparently that's now to be disregarded, so that people can come in and have their fun at our expense in a way we don't want to participate in.


So fuck it.

And it's opinions like this that do not help. You know who holds the power in these kinds of things? The delegates of the GCRs. They have the most WA endoes and tend to be the ones who sway votes.

You know who won't like RPers advocating that a part of their game gets destroyed? The delegates of the GCRs.

Your opinion is borne out of anger, and I sympathise as an RPer first and as a gameplayer second, but it's not helping Haven, or roleplayers in general.

You're damn skippy I'm angry. The delegates of the GCRs, whatever the hell those are, because I have no idea, can be assured that if they stop fucking with us, I will have absolutely zerofucks to give about raiding and gameplay in general. When we have mods specifically targeting us for harassment, I will not only get angry, but I will advocate for the destruction of the entire gameplay segment of this site, if that's what it takes for people to just leave us alone. The quickest way to keep roleplayers from advocatng against the portion of the game that others enjoy is to quit trying to drag us forcefully into it. We don't want to be involved, so quit trying to involve us. Don't be shocked when we get extremely pissed off about it. Just as pissed off as the GCRs are liable to get when we advocate getting rid of R/D.

Tl;dr, if they support us, they don't have to worry about us advocating against them. We really do just want to be left in peace. So, let's see about making this shit fail, ok? Thanks. And maybe verbally castigate the troll who started this entire cluster.

[Maltropia]

Did you notice how none of the significant RP'ers are denying their involvement?

Oh, sorry, I'll do that now. I played no role in the TSP coup. Happy?

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

Ah, now I get it. It's all about 'them'. Well, why don't you name names and shame them, Mall? Come on.

Did you notice how none of the significant RP'ers are denying their involvement?

Besides, their involvement is not relevant. The issues regarding Haven and TSP are crystal clear to outsiders looking in. Haven was one of the regions that provided support. RP'ers are flocking to defend it, just like they flocked to TSP to help Milograd. Nierr once correctly pointed out that it was stupid of them to do so since it would result in it being used as a potential argument for attacking them. Here it is a minor point.

So you can't provide any proof to the already baseless argument you've presented to justify this? Cool.

Are you honestly saying that roleplayers did not support Milograd's coup?

Who the fuck is Milograd?